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Angel_55

Another Pedigree Question :)

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I can't get your link to work. I cut and pasted it but still nothing.

Could just be me.

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Angel,

I think you need to post it to a public site (if it's a photo or a SitStay pedigree) and then post it here as an image? It looks like the link goes to your hard drive, and there's no way any of us can connect to that. If you have a digital camera, just take a photo of the ped and post it here.

 

J.

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That's a terrible dog, nothing good in there - just send her on to me, please.

 

Kathy's Ettrick Bob was a National Champion - he should have a star by his name.

 

If you get the books with American lines in them (North American Sheepdog Champions is one and another is the training book that just came out, from Outrun Press), you'll see many of these dogs discussed. Also, if you Google the names and registration numbers, you can find other dogs related to yours, and also see what's behind some of the top line dogs.

 

For instance, I found out H/R Howdy is apparently AKC registered and red and white. From his age (born '03), I'm guessing he wasn't bred for his outstanding working ability, so I'm not sure I could necessarily recommend the breeder herself, just from the pedigree. Unless this was an accident.

 

I'd really love to see her on sheep - have you had her out yet?

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For instance, I found out H/R Howdy is apparently AKC registered and red and white. From his age (born '03), I'm guessing he wasn't bred for his outstanding working ability, so I'm not sure I could necessarily recommend the breeder herself, just from the pedigree. Unless this was an accident.

 

Becca, can you please expand on this paragraph?

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If you get the books with American lines in them (North American Sheepdog Champions is one and another is the training book that just came out, from Outrun Press), you'll see many of these dogs discussed.

What's this "training book" that came out from Outrun? I didn't find anything that sounded like a training book except "Top Trainers...", or is that the one you mean (as a number of folks do mention some of their previous pups/dogs.

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I don't know anything about H/R Howdy, but his sire and dam are owned by Don Helsley. Jock was a super talented dog that Don trialed and the Jock x Lil cross produced many nice dogs that can be seen on the USBCHA Open trial field and working ranches. The breeder, Julie Woods, was living in ID but I *think* has moved to another state...she was always alot of fun to be around. She trialed some in USBCHA Open but might have started out in a different venue (not quite sure)...I don't know Nipper, but the bottom is Scrimgeour lines which should be good working dogs. Overall, the pedigree has some nice proven working dogs in it....the parents themselves may not have been proven to a high level (ie USBCHA Open) but it could be that they work at a novice/PN standard.

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Karen:

 

Howdy was less than two when bred, right? While not outside the realm of possibility, I'd question his having been fully trained by that age.

 

Sue, that's the one I meant. If you Google some of the relatives of this dog, then scan Top trainers (I had a really long day yesterday and coudln't remember the name), you'll see some cool references to these early dogs and even some current dogs. You know me, I'll read a whole book on training and see blah, blah, blah, DOG'S NAME, blah blah - :rolleyes:

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Howdy was less than two when bred, right? While not outside the realm of possibility, I'd question his having been fully trained by that age.

 

 

Though I know most around here do not agree with the practice, but it is not unusual for people to breed and then prove a dog that is showing promise or natural talent early on. The advantage to it is that you get to see if the dog is able to produce himself or better way earlier then to wait until he is proven through finished work, If you wait until the dog is finished it could be as late as 4 - 5 years of age, the dog would be 6-7 before you know if the dog is worth being a stud dog (judged based on his get not his performance). If you breed when you identify good raw talent you may decide 4-5 years earlier that he should be neutered as you determine that you don't like the pups or when you find he is putting something into the mating that you don't want. A person may also decide that if he produces poorly that he is not worth putting more training into and just move him on to someone that is not interested in breeding but rather just a good working dog allowing them to finish the dog to the level they desire.

 

I'm not saying that this is the case with the male in question, just mentioning that waiting until a dog is fully trained before you bred it may be less the norm then people think or want to believe as normal practice, especially by those that are training, using and competing.

 

Deb

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I just had a discussion about a similar topic with a friend of mine, although I don't remember all the details. She has had breeds of dogs that are commonly bred young, and she made a comment about a dog developing a fault by age 2, and that the dog had been bred before the fault appeared (now that I think about it, I think the problem was HD). I asked her why in the world anyone would breed a dog before age 2 and her response was that in this particular breed (bloodhounds) the average life span was 8 or so, and if you didn't breed early, then you wouldn't have a useful breeding life. So in that breed at least, breeders are perpetuating health issues and conformation faults (e.g., HD) that don't become evident until later in life because not doing so--in their mind at least--means limiting the genetic role of potential "good ones." I'm sorry, but I just don't really get that.

 

I think there are people who have been in livestock and stockdogs for a long time and are certainly qualified to look at raw talent and say "I want to breed from this" before the dog is proven to the rest of the world, but I would venture to guess that *most* people aren't really capable of doing this well. So from my POV, probably more people are breeding dogs at a young age based on their assessment of talent than should be. I've seen way too many examples of kennel blindness to feel otherwise. For most people, proving the dog first just makes sense.

 

Just my two cents.

 

J.

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Also speaking from the point of view of recommending such a cross to someone newish to the breed. I wouldn't. I might go ahead and get a dog from a young parent if they looked REALLY good and I knew the lines well, but even then I hesitate now, having been down that road and not in a productive way (buying, not breeding).

 

So many possible slips betwixt cup and lip.

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Don't know the individual at all here (though Helsey's dogs are well reputed, as is he), but in general most people are not capable of evaluating their own dogs so young. This combimed with selling practices is a potential list of problems:

 

#1 gene pool dilution with poor working/non working/unhealthy dogs that are inadvertantly produced because of untested parentage.

 

#2 Beginning of a snowball of choices like #1. After all, if one person doesn't have to evaluate the parentage and can go ahead and breed young, why can't I, and you, and them? This is where we run into whole pedigrees of working "lines" with no real ability.

 

#3. It is much more difficult to make sure the pup end up in appropriate homes. With such young parentage you have much less idea of the prominent genetics, will, or won't, have a change to make a suitable worker or even a pet.

 

Debbie, if the dog is any good you won't have any trouble getting any btches for him later. As for the btches, if you can't produce some solid to excellent pups in the first litter, #2 isn't really worth the trouble. And if #2 fails well...why bother? At that point you've produced around 10-12 pups of less than you want...so you might as well spay her and buy a grown dog that does what you want. You'd certainly come out ahead financially.

 

I daresay there are probably less than 10 working breeders in the country who have the combined experience as trainers, handlers, and breeders, to look at a year old dog and know they've got what they want and need to breed another generation. And even they fail a good bit of time. The good thing is one of their "fails" are lightyears ahead of what the average breeder produces in quality.

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Though I know most around here do not agree with the practice, but it is not unusual for people to breed and then prove a dog that is showing promise or natural talent early on. The advantage to it is that you get to see if the dog is able to produce himself or better way earlier then to wait until he is proven through finished work,...

 

While true that this happens, it is not a given that it is a "good thing" that people breed dogs young and when less than proven. There are folks who are expert enough to be able to see the potential in a young dog (especially as they may be well able to evaluate the "raw material" that is in the dog, before it has been messed up by any mistakes in training or handling) but they are far and few between, must generally have a great deal of wide-ranging experience, and are most likely not the folks that are often doing the early breeding.

 

I'm not saying that this is the case with the male in question, just mentioning that waiting until a dog is fully trained before you bred it may be less the norm then people think or want to believe as normal practice, especially by those that are training, using and competing. Deb

It is my opinion only but I believe too many people feel they have the knowledge way too soon and with way less experience than they need to be making breeding decisions, especially on young and unproven dogs. But who am I to say as my experience is limited, my knowledge pretty shallow, and my intent to get whatever I might need from a quality proven producer of good pups/dogs rather than to simply produce my own because I can and think I have the chops to do it.

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That's a terrible dog, nothing good in there - just send her on to me, please.

 

Kathy's Ettrick Bob was a National Champion - he should have a star by his name.

 

If you get the books with American lines in them (North American Sheepdog Champions is one and another is the training book that just came out, from Outrun Press), you'll see many of these dogs discussed. Also, if you Google the names and registration numbers, you can find other dogs related to yours, and also see what's behind some of the top line dogs.

 

For instance, I found out H/R Howdy is apparently AKC registered and red and white. From his age (born '03), I'm guessing he wasn't bred for his outstanding working ability, so I'm not sure I could necessarily recommend the breeder herself, just from the pedigree. Unless this was an accident.

 

I'd really love to see her on sheep - have you had her out yet?

 

When she was about 7 or 8 months old we took her out to a local Herding breed puppy event (it was all Border Collies lol). She was very, very interested in the sheep, but her tail was always way over her back... I don't know much about stockwork and sheepdogs, but I'm thinking that's a gay tail, and not good? Here's a picture of it...

 

w66c9.jpg

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I don't think you can judge her potential based on one exposure to sheep. Lots of youngsters start out with their tails up and as they figure out their job and get more serious, the tail drops. The situation in the picture is somewhat of a high pressure situation--the sheep are in the corner with nowhere to go and the pup certainly doesn't know how to go around and scoop them out--and that's a very likely explanation for why the tail.

 

J.

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