Another dog was killed at our dog park.

[cookieboy]

Not everyone lives in an area that gives them access to enough land where a border collie can get sufficient exercise without using dog parks on occasion. I live in a suburban megalopolis, which strictly enforces leash laws, and is very litigious. All my dogs participate in agility, with lessons at a dog training facility, I have a smallish yard where I rotate agility equipment and train frequently, and I trial many weekends throughout the year. Agility alone isn't sufficient for my dogs, who love to chase frisbees and balls with the best of them. I believe in cross training, in particular for my older dog, who I prefer not to jump much outside of trialing. The roads aren't safe to bicycle with my dogs, and the local bicycle paths do not welcome them. I risk tickets on a daily basis, when I allow my dogs off leash at a local woods/preserve. Sometimes I just want to be able to throw a ball to my dogs, and the dog parks, while not a perfect answer, is a help. Most parks in the area do not even allow leashed dogs. For the past few years, we had a huge,beautiful ,off leash, semi legal dog park. There were posted signs and summer camp hours that needed to be respected, but unfortunately, politics intervened. Instead, a small enclosed area will be built, and dog park regulars now risk tickets when they allow their dogs off leash. A group has been lobbying to add dog parks, and has succeeded in changing the laws to now allow off leash areas with "natural boundaries" instead of fences. This is a huge success, and while every park must be fought for, we can now hope for some seasonal access to beaches or other remoter areas. I think my point is that dog parks can help fulfill a need in certain areas, but should be of sufficient size to allow natural, unimpeded play with your dogs.

[sluj]

OoKy;

Out of curiosity who pays to maintain and operate your dog parks then?

 

I live in the city adjacent to Ooky's, so I'm guessing it's the same situation. Our dog parks are maintained by volunteers. There is a group that raises money to open a new ones. Donations just aren't compulsory. On the other hand, the parks I'm thinking of are fairly small. I used to go occasionally when I didn't have any other safe areas to let my dog run off-leash. It's pretty hard to adequately exercise your dog with just leased walks on concrete sidewalks.

[Ooky]

I have noticed a trend in the thread though - why do people feel the need to let their dogs "run free"? What gives? That is one of my biggest fear/dislikes of the dog parks. Dogs simply "running free" with strange dogs tends to be a train wreck waiting to happen, especially with clueless owners!

 

I think this is something that may be hard to really understand until you live with a high-energy dog in such an urban environment that you really have to seek out places where your dog can actually have some semi-unstructured, off-leash dog time. By that I don't mean unstructured in that he's not supervised and under my control, but you know, ramblin' with your person but not at a heel, fetch a ball, whatever. Being a natural dog, in other words. We enjoy some of the dogs we meet in dog parks, usually Odin gets along quite well with other dogs. But mostly, as Anda is saying, this is one of a few places we can go and legally not have to have our dogs strapped within 4-6 ft of our sides every single moment they are outside the house. I also seek out illegal opportunities, BTW, some parks I go to are on-leash but I'm in ok with the local cops and Odin is under my control enough that they turn a blind eye.

 

Maybe this is also why the clientele of DPs in my area sound much different than what many of you describe as being practically inevitable free-for-alls. It is a valuable resource for us and as far as I've seen in my area, people self-police, citizen-police if needed, and fight to keep these areas safe and reasonable places to come.

 

Even when I just go to my in-laws' small 3-ac farmlet, I am amazed at how much fun Odin has just ramblin' around, sniffing, running, finding a shady spot, and playing with me. I probably wouldn't feel anything resembling this "need" to let him run free (so to speak) at a dog park if we had a large fenced yard or a pasture. Not that's it's all bad raising an urban dog - my guy is totally bombproof in any situation with bikes, skateboards, kids, motorcycles, heavy traffic, large crowds, etc. and extremely well-socialized!

 

ETA, sorry, just saw Iron Horse's comment about who owns and operates. It's a mish-mash of different municipalities, county parks, and even state lands, I believe. The one with the awesome agility stuff is operated by Union City. Sluj, do you know who operates Caesar Chavez?

[Journey]

I think this is something that may be hard to really understand until you live with a high-energy dog in such an urban environment that you really have to seek out places where your dog can actually have some semi-unstructured, off-leash dog time. By that I don't mean unstructured in that he's not supervised and under my control, but you know, ramblin' with your person but not at a heel, fetch a ball, whatever. Being a natural dog, in other words.

 

 

OK, first off - been there done that. I may have room now, however, my dog yard is smaller here than it was in Florida. They do not need hours of rambling and what not. Sure they run when I take them out but quite frankly the spot under the patio table has no grass now, they all lay around, unless we're working. Second, has it occurred to anyone that the hours of "free running" can contribute to the "high-energy" you call it? It's a viscous circle, the more you give the more they "need" so to speak. Third, this is not directed at any person individually, but why does one have a "high-energy" dog in an urban environment? It sounds to me like you are saying that Border Collies are high energy and need lots of exercise? Isn't that sort of what irks people about "free to good country home, needs lots of room to run" ads?

 

I commend you on trying other places, there are always alternatives, you just have to get out of the box and be creative and find them or make them!

[Journey]

And Journey, when I say "run free", I refer to an unrestricted field, where there are no obstacles in the path of my dog chassing the ball

 

But where would you get all the great shots of him w/o obstacles. Like the Visla

[Ooky]

OK, first off - been there done that. I may have room now, however, my dog yard is smaller here than it was in Florida. They do not need hours of rambling and what not. Sure they run when I take them out but quite frankly the spot under the patio table has no grass now, they all lay around, unless we're working. Second, has it occurred to anyone that the hours of "free running" can contribute to the "high-energy" you call it? It's a viscous circle, the more you give the more they "need" so to speak. Third, this is not directed at any person individually, but why does one have a "high-energy" dog in an urban environment? It sounds to me like you are saying that Border Collies are high energy and need lots of exercise? Isn't that sort of what irks people about "free to good country home, needs lots of room to run" ads?

 

I commend you on trying other places, there are always alternatives, you just have to get out of the box and be creative and find them or make them!

 

I see your point, but again I'd say there's something a little bit unnatural, to *me*, about a dog that never gets any "personal" freedom (again, we're talking shades here) to explore and be under a looser control. Herding doesn't count for us (yet), it's too infrequent and my trainer gets really mad at him for making personal choices like eating sheep poop. At the DP he's still with me, but if he wants to go run 50 ft to lay under a particular bush, he can. Maybe I just treasure the memories of getting to ramble a bit myself as a child. Off trail. In a field, with my best friend.

 

Odin loves going with us but I'm sure we wouldn't have to go to DPs to still be happy. I just think he's happier when we do go once in a while. He has a very nice off-switch, in fact he was at work with me today for over 11 hours, +2 hours in the car, and probably only 10 - 15% of the time was he moving around at all. Now he's chewing on his antler and hanging out with me on the bed, too. Pretty typical dog, really!

[IronHorse]

ETA, sorry, just saw Iron Horse's comment about who owns and operates. It's a mish-mash of different municipalities, county parks, and even state lands, I believe. The one with the awesome agility stuff is operated by Union City. Sluj, do you know who operates Caesar Chavez?

Thanks for answering,I think between what Sluj and yourself have said I have a better understanding of how at least in Calif these dog parks are operated.

I'm trying to wrap my brain around how these work because I've never even seen one nor looked for one,everywhere my dogs go there is acreage, except for the occasional traveling when they are on leash.I understand the purpose for having such facilities available in urbanized areas, where otherwise there really would be no options for people to allow their dogs off leash.

I do however personally believe that there should be a user fee as in a license or even a day permit to offset what I assume is paid for by taxes to operate these parks.

I believe by paying a fee it would have a tendency to keep down the number of "riff-raff" (or as others have suggested "lazy")types who typically don't pay for anything they can get for free, thus allowing those responsible dog owners a safer and more fullfilling facillity to ultilize.

[juliepoudrier]

slight hijack here...

 

my trainer gets really mad at him for making personal choices like eating sheep poop.

I hope you're just kidding about this! A dog eating sheep poop during training is often a dog that's feeling a bit too much stress or is confused (= stress). If the trainer is really getting mad at this, then she's just adding to his stress, which will do *nothing* to stop the problem.

 

<end hijack>

 

J.

[MicheleS.]

Julie - I'm glad for your *slight hijack* because it just confirmed and gave me more insight into Chase! I've had him on sheep numerous times and have recently given up the sheep because all Chase did was eat sheep poop and roll in sheep poop (we never yelled at him for him, just tried to call him back on the sheep). Outwardly it seemed he just had no interest. Understanding dogs and knowing him as I do (but certainly a bit clueless and not an expert since he is my first BC and this has been my first experience with herding), he is extremely shy and sensitive and to me seemd to be displaying some kind of avoidance, although he got excited being there and seemed like he wanted to be there. (We drove by the farm the other day going somewhere else and Chase got so excited in the truck thinking he was going to see the sheep. It broke my heart knowing he would never go back.) Your comment pretty much confirmed that.

Anyway, thanks and maybe this should be a subject for me under another topic.

<sorry guys>

Michele &

Hughie &

Gypsy &

Chase

[agilityrunningdogs]

I currently in suburbia with a fairly small backyard, half of which is covered by a wooden deck. That being said, my boys love to run around together, they take turns who is in lead and who is following and will often race side by side. I feel bad when they chase each other in the backyard because they are constantly having to change direction to keep from running into trees, the fence, the house etc. My solution was to take them to a dogpark when it wasn't so crowded and they could really stretch their legs. Now, the DP is hardly ever empty so we go to a baseball field instead. They race as fast as they can and don't have to worry about hitting a fence for a long time (it is still fully fenced). Sometimes I'll play with them, running and throwing the occaisional ball. To me, nothing beats seeing their smiling faces as we load back into the car after a good run.

 

When we go to trials, I try to seek out local parks with sports fields because after a long day in their crate, they just want to let loose. It also help them sleep soundly so they arn't bouncing off the walls at the hotel. I don't really think that hyperactivity is fed by "running free", at least the majority of it is not. My schnauzer boy is a rescue who was kept in a crate for the first 6 months of his life and he is the wildest in the pack by far. Komet seems to always be in motion and has a hard time settling down - so taking him out to run off-lead for 30 minutes or so is a huge help.

[Ooky]

Hi Julie,

 

Yeah, I like your hijacks too. She doesn't really get mad at any dog, for anything. She does correct him for it, though. He stops, gets up, and gets his butt moving again. But I am PMing you with some questions!

[Lenajo]

I don't mind *some* dog parks used on a limited basis, as I've stated, and I've mostly just occassionally used them while traveling.

 

I have to agree with those that commented on this obsessive need to have "room to run" and "free time", and it is obsessive, with their dogs. My working dogs get far less exercise that most Border Collie pets I know. I rarely, if ever (personally I hate it) throw a ball, and I *might* take them swimming once a week in the summer if I'm inclined. And right now when it's hot and humid I've got 2 dogs working about a hour a day each to do chores. The rest are just hanging out - from age 1 to age 13.

 

Hyper running about just makes a more fit dog thats still hyper. Unrestricted free time as a regular form of entertainment just gives a dog opportunity to get into trouble by developing bad habits.

 

Dog parks, like back yards, present a tempting excuse to most dog owners. Why train him when the yard is fenced and he'll come for dinner anyway? Why exercise him when I can sit on my butt at the park or wear out my arm only encouraging his ball or frisbee neurosis?

 

The best thing that would happen to most Border Collie owners is that they didn't have a dog park OR a fenced yard. They would then have to train their dogs and find activities that are appropriate.

 

Where my family is from in Europe its like that. Nobody has a fenced yard, and if you want to use a park it's for people and dogs both. IF off leash is allowed you are expected to be able to call them back (and make them behave on and off leash) if you turn them loose. People jog with their dogs, or take them for long rambling walks on lead. You rarely see a hyper dog there. And you will meet many dogs that have not ever left their home to be off leash except at the training building for sport or schutzhund.

 

I did once catch a comment about "Americans and their need to throw that da*n tennis ball".

 

Food for thought.

[ShoresDog]

I wonder if we have any board members who live in New York City? I recall reading in the New York Times (still get it daily, never acclimated to the San Diego Union Tribune's right-wing-ishness) that the never ending disputes between dog owners and dog-should-be-on-a-leash-24-7 types were resolved by the city council passing a regulation that all city parks would be off-leash before 9AM and leashes required after. Given the spacious city parks that many NYC neighborhoods have, that sounded like a great compromise and I am curious as to how it is working. Of course the newspapers never cover anything that isn't a big problem, so who knows?

 

I'm in agreement that dogs oughtn't run wild, but they DO need a chance to run some. With ours, that's usually in pursuit of a frisbee or a tennis ball, because that's what we like. But it's also really, really fun to hike a trail with a dog off leash, where the dog can do a bit of ranging and exploring, while under voice control of course.

[Sue R]

I don't know anything about those regs, but my son and his family, plus Sheltie, live in Brooklyn. It's a lovely walk from their aparment up along the Promenade, to a dog park that is probably about 2 acres at most, no grass (as it's apparently well-used), and a place that John takes the dog (and one or more children) very often. He's met great folks with nice dogs and his dog enjoys a little socializing (which he also gets sometimes on the walks to and from, and around the block to do his business).

 

I've just been to that one with John, and to the big dog park at Masterson Station Park, which is an excellent facility but, like any other park, is only as good as the folks who use it. Therefore, I avoid it due to the folks who have no control over their dogs ("Your dog took our ball." "Well, I can't catch him, he won't come to me, and I can't get it back.") or those who just let them loose and don't even attempt any semblance of control or manners (like the young lady with the boxer pup, who spent her entire dog park time and attention on her cell phone on a bench, while her exuberant pup harassed my dog until we decided to just leave).

 

Two types of unpopular users - the ones that try but have no control over their dogs, and the ones that don't even try but figure they are doing right by their dogs to "let them run". There are many folks who use dog parks responsibly but, like everything else, it only takes one or two who don't to ruin it for others.

[ShoresDog]

Two types of unpopular users - the ones that try but have no control over their dogs, and the ones that don't even try but figure they are doing right by their dogs to "let them run".

Actually, three types. You forgot the a##h#les who don't pick up their dogs doo-doo. They are very unpopular everywhere!

[Aussiedawgs]

The only time I go to dog parks is when I'm visiting my mother in NC as she doesn't have a fenced yard. I only bring one of my dogs traveling, and he is pretty good in that dog park, but I always watch things like a hawk and I never stand still. I always try to scope out what dogs are there first - what breeds, sex, age, play style. Cowboy is really good about not wanting to get into trouble and will usually try to avoid it, but he is also not too tolerant of "rude" dogs (i.e. adolescent males) so I have to look out for him and be ready to call him off if another dog is getting fresh or there is a "too intense" chase going on or a spat. We also always bring our "chuck it" and a ball and we walk around the perimeter and toss the ball. I guess it probably defeats the purpose of the dog park (let your dog play with other dogs) but his style of play is that of an Aussie - rough and intense and can get him into trouble. I think the best thing I can say about dog parks is - know your dog, keep an eye out for situations for situations that might get out of control and if you feel that the mix of dogs might be too edgy...stay out. I would also be super cautious about bringing puppies in - especially if they are timid. This dog park does not have a seperate area for small dogs or puppies.

 

A lot of people seem to just stand still or sit and read and totally ignore their dogs and that is when problems occur - at least with my dogs, so we keep on the move.

 

I totally agree with what Sue says and would a third type of dog park "user" - the invisable man. This is the guy (or woman) who brings their dog in, then disappears for an hour or so leaving their dog unmonitored.

 

Hope

& Cowboy (the Aussie)

& Deena, Abbynormal, Sophie, Hazel, Jess -- the Harem

[Anda]

We also always bring our "chuck it" and a ball and we walk around the perimeter and toss the ball. I guess it probably defeats the purpose of the dog park (let your dog play with other dogs) but his style of play is that of an Aussie - rough and intense and can get him into trouble.

 

That's exactly what we do. Ouzo never plays with other dogs, and after reading about other dogs reactivity, I realize he's pretty much bomb proof when it comes to dog parks. Even if another dog is rude, he simply ignores it. I mean, I have to actually yell at other dogs to stop trying to hump Ouzo, while he is absolutely clueless about having an adoring male about to mount him, he's got tennis balls to stare at, those are more important than interaction with other dogs I will spare you the pics, I have those too

 

So no, for us, the dog park is not a place to necessarly interact with other dogs, it's just a big ol' park where we're permitted to play off leash. He does get excited seeing the other dogs, while we're in the car, but once we're there, they pretty much become invisible for him.

[desertranger]

More than fools and idiots go to dog parks than you would thnk. Yesterday I had to take DW to the doctor and wait for her. Since it's around the corner from a dog park I thought I wold take Jin and Abby there. Very bad decision. While we were there a guy walked (was pulled) in with two huskies on very heavy chain leads. His attitude was I have tough dogs and he walked around the park with his dogs basically intidimitaing other people and their dogs so I left. As I drove away I saw that he was trying to pull his dogs away from another dog. Glad I left we went downtown for an early dinner at a street cafe. Since I'm having probs wth Jin and other dogs I took him to work on it downtown and was doing quite well until guess who shows up. The guy with the two huskies on chain leads and he wasn't walking his dogs, he was being pulled along by them barely in control if you could call it that which I don't. The first time he walked by he was out by the curb and his dogs got snarky as he passed. Jin went crazy. He stopped to let hius dogs have some fun snarking at Jin and Abby who responded. Abby responded? That's unheard of. He finally dragged his dogs away. It took me more than a couple of minutes for Jun to calm down. About 15 mins later he walks back by only this time with a smirk on his face and close enough to Jin for them to actually come into contact. He stood there hanging onto his dogs letting them snark with me sitting at a table and both of my dogs tied to a hitching post. I asked him to leave and he got just got snarky himself and actually let his dogs closer to mine. By this time I've totally lost control of my dogs who are tied up, on very short leads, snarking back unable to do anything while this guys letting his dogs edge closer. That's when I got pissed and went into ranger mode and got out of my seat and approached him stating, "You under arrest let's see some ID" Do that hard, heavy, and cop style and most people stop and listen. By this time a foot patrol showed up and got involved. The guy was told take his dogs and leave and he refused. Then he went jail and his dogs to the shelter.

 

The cops told me afterward that this kind of an incident has been happening more and more of late. People going into public barely able to control their dogs. Sitting at dinner I saw a lot of dogs walk by with beautiful manners and more than a few that were either aggressive or afraid and pulling on their leashes or standing stiff legged and tails straight out and expecting trouble. Some of those dogs like an overweight dachshund would have run if given the chance.

 

In the meantime I've again had to take steps backwards with Jin and Abby because some AH decided to bring his aggressive dogs out. Considering how often this seems to be happening (two incidents since March) I'm now going to take my walking stick when I go out on walks for defense. That's disgusting.

[Tommy Coyote]

Wow! So much for a relaxing afternoon. Poor huskies to be owned by a person like that.

 

I had a friend who lives in California who took her little dog (about 40 pounds) to an outdoor cafe where dogs are welcome. I don't think she even got to sit down before her dog was attacked by an attack trained GSD (imported from Germany). I think the owner was a nice person he just had gotten a dog he had no idea how to control. Layla was bitten pretty badly but she was all right. But that should never have happened in the first place.

[G. Festerling]

The best thing that would happen to most Border Collie owners is that they didn't have a dog park OR a fenced yard. They would then have to train their dogs and find activities that are appropriate.

 

And although I know that this maybe a dream but still, there are way too many good trainers out there that can help everyone. Between them, online communities, books, tv, clinics (do I have all the ways someone can learn?) and a bit of common sense, there are NO excuses to not at least put some control on any dog. If everyone did that, then dog parks may be a bit safer and more fun. Then everyone that chooses to use them would be a bit safer. Especially the dogs.

JMO...

[Sue R]

There is no valid reason but, as long as there are human beings, there will be excuses...

[RuthBelle]

Bob and I, Belle and Watson enjoy our lovely 40 acre, fenced in dog park located outside of Standing Rocks Park in Portage County, WI. It's scenic, full of wild flowers and prairie grasses, and if we get the urge to really get out into the "wilderness", there's hundreds of acres of additional trails to hike on (through the back gate of the dog park). The drive out there takes us through lovely farmland and forested areas.

 

We go out there at least once on the weekends, and when the mood hits us during the week. We'll throw the Frisbee for the dogs while we're walking and enjoying the flora and fauna. Quite a few people will be out there after work, and lots of folks on the weekends, including the park officer who regularly checks to see if people are carrying their doggy doo bags (county park ordinance) and their permits.

 

Everyone we've ever met there has been polite and their dogs under control. No problems for us or that we could see occuring for anyone else either.

 

The dog park is so far out of town that the idiots who like to show off their personal "machismo" , "bitchiness" or their aggressive dogs wouldn't have much of an audience to impress (or terrify). The park office and officers are just down the road.

[ErinKate]

Too bad dog parks don't require the owners and their dogs to pass some sort of obedience/control test before being allowed to use the park. If people actually had to train their dogs before being allowed to use such parks, either the idiots would stay home, or they'd manage to train their dogs.

 

J.

 

Hello----exactly!

Anda I wasn't suggesting everyone using the park was lazy, hence me saying "not everyone." As Julie went on to point out. The people I have a prob. with are the ones that bring untrained crazy dogs and think the dog park is a great solution to draining that energy rather then giving them any training. That to me is just digging the owner a deeper hole of teaching that dog poor manners. Bring a crazy, let it be crazy, go home return the next day and repeat. If they would use their time more contructively, they would burn WAY more energy and actually learn something. Instead like someone said, they invade other peoples good time and expect everyone else to entertain their dogs.

[Rave]

Wow some of you guys are calling people stupid for exercising their dogs? Would you rather the dog stayed on a chain in the backyard all day instead? Sheesh people, lighten up. Granted, there are idiots everywhere, including dog parks. There is risk everywhere, including dog parks. Go to an agility class instead you say? Well that's good mental exercise and a great bonding experience, but most classes aren't going to physically wear a dog out. So yeah, it's a nice thing to do, but don't use agility class as the only exercise for your dog, or you'll end up with weekend warrior-type injuries.

 

Anywhere that's a great place to take dogs may eventually become a de facto dog park, with the same kind of problems you see at the legal ones. Unfortunately, most legal dog parks I've seen are too small; they really need support and activism from a local support club. I'm lucky enough to live by a huge one that was done right - 40 acres along a river with wide open spaces where it's easy to get away from others (Marymoor in the Seattle area). My dogs run and do their own thing, would rather race each other at Mach 10 then "socialize." I manage them constantly though, lie them down immediately if a "rough" dog or a pack of dogs gives chase. I've even been able to bring my space issues dog along at less crowded times and most people see that I'm managing her interactions very strictly and respect that. Takes vigilance and knowledge and well-trained dogs, but it's well worth the legal flat-out running and swimming the girls can get in just a short drive from the house.

 

So don't knock all dog parks and all people who go to them. ;-)

[DTrain]

Desert Ranger, very interesting post and good work. I have been observing our local dog park and other areas where people take their dogs and have noticed something rather odd. I was not going to post about this, I thought perhaps it was just me until you made your last post. I have been seeing a lot of rough looking people with shall we say protection type dogs in our parks lately. Often times there is two dogs and it appears they are completely untrained. In some cases they are quite aggressive, barking and lunging at other dogs and some people. It has struck me more than once that it appears some of the owners are out to show off their dogs ( my dog is bigger and meaner than your dog ) and it also has appeared to me that in some cases these people are going out of their way to have their dogs interact with other dogs and it also appears to me that they are bullying other people and dogs. I have not seen it yet but I am told these dogs have even attacked other dogs, I am even told that some of the owners have dropped leashes in what appears to be a way to start a fight. There is a lot of these sorts of dogs and owners in my area and I have begun to wonder if the owners are using our parks as places to for lack of a better term, train aggression into them. Or perhaps it is just a case of getting their ego off. There is no reason in the world for these sorts of people and dogs to be in a dog park or any public place if their only way to interact is through aggression. I am going to look into this further. I wish I had be witness to your situation. Thanks for bringing this up, I am wondering about some things I have seen now.