jeff77 Posted May 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Emma is a sweet red devil. Loves people and agility. I have had her around kids’ age 9mo. to 5yr. old and she does fine. They love to play with her and Emma love to kiss there face. Emma is doing well in agility. Does anyone know of any agility dogs from Canaan Ranch? She does have a little dog aggression but with the right training I can fix it. Does anyone have any advice on how to stop her aggression? (Emma is only 9mo old) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 She is a very beautiful dog. You must be very proud of her. I did some agility with Shiro but she preferrf to work the sheep more. Jumping through the tyre was her favorite thing in agility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixx Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Emma is a sweet red devil. Loves people and agility. I have had her around kids’ age 9mo. to 5yr. old and she does fine. They love to play with her and Emma love to kiss there face. Emma is doing well in agility. Does anyone know of any agility dogs from Canaan Ranch? She does have a little dog aggression but with the right training I can fix it. Does anyone have any advice on how to stop her aggression? (Emma is only 9mo old) Hey Jeff, I have a book you can borrow about aggressive dogs. It's very informative. I bought it before I realized that Seek wasn't aggressive, but reactive. I use positive training methods with her and I see a change in her personality. She has way less freak outs. If I use a tone of voice with her in a negative way then I swear she will have no confidence and freak out at several people throughout the day. It's all the positive energy I send her way that makes her confident and a very happy dog. Also, with Seeks reactiveness being mostly towards men, I started having lots of my guy friends hang around the house or run errands or walks, etc. After a few visits she would start to love these guys and get very excited when she saw them. This has also helped her not freak out. She has changed so much since I first brought her home and she would growl at every guy on the street. So, you could use those methods with Emma, except with dogs and not people. Maybe have her be in the presence of a dog and treat (jackpot) and reward her for just looking at the other dog, or not barking or growling, or whatever else. Take small steps. Obviously I'm not a professional, haha! Those are just some ideas that come to mind from working with my pup (and it worked). Oh, also... is she more aggressive on leash or off leash? That's another thing to think about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 So she spent 30 minutes out there with her dog chasing sheep around before she saw a glimmer of stockdog showng through? That sounds like a dog being bred for drive, drive, drive with little reguard to stock sense and bidability. They probably would like to get rid of the stock sense - it only gets in the way. I found that with obedience people that i met. They could have cared less about stock sense. And the heading instinct just was a huge nuisance. They wanted it gone. They just like the speed and the bidability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Or, they are using their "name" and exclusive selection process to pick buyers most likely to pursue higher levels of competition. That video was painful to watch btw... Yes, on both counts. The video? Argggh! Woman, let the dog work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 I know nothing about teaching a dog to work sheep, but what I did notice was that the dog seemed to be limping a bit on it's rear left leg. Not all the time, but a definite and noticeable hitch. Am I imagining things? Ruth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Does the breeder ever trial her dogs? What's her criteria for accepting money for her expertise in working dogs? If I remember correctly, wasn't she the one several years ago who used soccer balls, throwing them at the dog to move the dog off stock, or to bend him out on an outrun---something like that? I forget, but I can't imagine it's a pretty sight having to drag or carry some soccer or basketballs with you into the field everytime you train a dog. This was a few years ago. Hope she's learned something since then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capnree Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Does the breeder ever trial her dogs? What's her criteria for accepting money for her expertise in working dogs? If I remember correctly, wasn't she the one several years ago who used soccer balls, throwing them at the dog to move the dog off stock, or to bend him out on an outrun---something like that? I forget, but I can't imagine it's a pretty sight having to drag or carry some soccer or basketballs with you into the field everytime you train a dog. This was a few years ago. Hope she's learned something since then. I'm under the impression that she used to do obedience, but no longer trials her dogs in anything (but other people trial their Hob Nob dogs). I was surprised to find her blog -I'm not sure if she plans on doing something with all her new dogs, or if she's just playing with them to show online, or what. I was told by someone who saw her facility she has a pretty large number of dogs. She wrote she does not leave her farm a lot. The Hob Nob dogs I've met are nice. They are pretty, fast, and driven, and all the ones I've met have nice temperaments. I think a handful here and there do some USBCHA. I'm not supporting them, I'm just surprised they seems to turn out all right as far as a companion (and agility dog, honestly) goes when not a lot seems to be going into it. Sometimes she breeds to well trialed agility dogs, other than that, it seems like a mis-mash of a bunch of stuff. It's hard for a person who doesn't know anything about herding to see anything wrong with that video (I asked some friends), when looking for a dog for agility -they see nice dogs, but they don't see the other side they support by buying the dog (ie, the stuff going wrong with starting a dog in the video). For the one clinic I knew of, the host was a larger name agility person who has a facility to do multiple dog sports, and the host used to run (agility) some HN dogs (and recommends HN to her students.) - which might be an explanation. I feel like she's probably one of those people who had an early start in the dog sport thing and so has built on that and stuck around, like a few other agility breeders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 I didn't even attempt to look at the video--maybe another day. This breeder used to live here in my general neck of the woods. Was a big time obedience person, so I am told. Started showing her dogs in ACK "herding" and did quite well, as in a small arena with dog broke stock, all one needs to do is to be able to place the dog where you want it. The dogs never really "worked" the stock--they were merely in the correct place for the stock to go through the panels. They never really even *looked* at the stock, but rather at her. Ugh. Then she did a VERY brief stint at USBCHA trials in the novice/novice level. Got her clock cleaned, as the dogs were never actually controlling the stock, and the stock were often range ewes (= real life and merely placing the dog didn't cut it). Gave up shortly thereafter. Some years later moved to Wa state. Seems to breed a whole lot of red dogs, A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Hob Nob is the very definition of a high-volume, exorbitantly-priced sport breeder. I have several friends who have HN dogs and they love them though. The ones I know do well in sports, which is all some sports people want. One of my east coast friends flew out here to get her HN pup and stayed with me, so I went out with her to Jan's house to pick up the pup. It was a nice clean set-up inside her house; she's no puppy mill or BYB (or is she? I guess that's up to everyone's own interpretation since I've heard she's called other breeders who breed as much as she does a "puppy mill". Glass houses Jan?). She seems to always have lots of puppies on the ground or on the way, and colors are a big deal, especially rare colors like dilutes. She comes out to local trials always has a pup in tow. When I was out there visiting with my friend, we did go down and watch her put some of her dogs on the handful of sheep that she has. It was obvious she was a beginner, as evidenced by the videos posted elsewhere. I bit my lip and didn't say anything (and anyone who knows me, knows that's a hard thing for me to do); after all, I didn't want to create any issues when my friend was picking up her pup. Someone mentioned Slick earlier. If you're talking about Lisa Bower's dog, I believe that's a Rising Sun dog, not Hob Nob. About Canaan, I contacted them recently to inquire about their breeding program. I was told "I'm currently out of pups. We do have a dog by the name of Ivy bred to Chunk which will have a litter any day now." I asked if this breeding would throw any smooth coats, since it was a repeat breeding, I figured he'd know. In his 2-3 email responses so far, he's yet to say "no there won't be any smooths!" lol He either doesn't know what a smooth coat is, or is just trying to sell a pup really hard. Regardless, I was turned off and stopped responding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agilityrunningdogs Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Someone mentioned Slick earlier. If you're talking about Lisa Bower's dog, I believe that's a Rising Sun dog, not Hob Nob. Hob Nob Greased Lightning is Slick, owned by Steve Moon out of New Mexico. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobnob Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 interesting what one can find on the internet:>) In regards to all the erroneous talk about Hob Nob border collies and myself as the breeder of these wonderful dogs, let me clarify all the misinformation that seems to be the topic of this bc boards. I have had border collies for over 30 years. I was very successful in obedience competitions. Finally was able to have easy access to sheep and started herding both in pro novice at USBCHA trials along with arena A courses and B field courses in AKC. AKC arena courses are hard for my dogs as they have a strong presence on the stock so I much prefer the B courses or open field work. For the few times I trialed at the pro novice level with puppies that I started on my own, I won several... some with 50 dogs competing against many top handlers with imported trained dogs. I took private lessons with Alisdair M., Candy Kennedy, Susy Applegate & Bobby Dalziel along with seminars from Patrick S. Bill B. Jack Knox, Alisdair M., Bobby Dalziel & Marc Christopher. Not one of them seemed to think that I was "just a beginner" Price of my puppies for spay/neuter contracts/limited registration is $1,500 and $2,500 to $3,000 for full registration which I rarely allow. I could easily sell many puppies on full registration for the higher price but I choose not to. The price is set high for a reason...you all can figure that out:>) I am very thorough in screening potential puppy buyers which is why my pups do not end up in rescue and have homes for life. I am a constant source of support for each and every Hob Nob owner 24/7. As most reputable breeders, I spend thousands of dollars on my breeding program. I do health screens on all my dogs whether they ever get bred or not and require owners to test their pups for hip and eye clearance. Many of the puppies I sell were co-owned until the pup was spayed/neuter. What responsible owner would have a problem with that? I breed versatile border collies (isn't every working bred border collie versatile?) but most of my pups are more popular in agility. I no longer compete in obedience, agility or herding after having both my knees replaced. I keep a very small flock of 5 sheep to occasionally work my dogs and test my puppies and young adults. Fusion was not limping in any video, and is doing quite nice in his sheepwork without the use of any line, covers his sheep well, etc. I am not breeding for color although I do have a short coated blue tri bitch from strong working lines whose grandfather is Aled Owen's Bob along with many other well known dogs in her pedigree. My first border collie from Edgar Gould was a chocolate (red/white) which is why I have a fondness for this color. Sadly, it is forums like the BC boards that seemingly thrive on misinformation, gossip, etc and readily go off on someone without getting the facts and information first hand. While I may have stumbled upon this forum thru a link on my website which directed me to this topic, I do not wish to participate in the discussion but realized that I could respond to help bring about the truth. To each of you, enjoy life with your border collies as I do with my wonderful Hob Nob dogs Regards Jan DeMello/Hob Nob border collies www.jandemellobordercollie.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 "stumbled upon this forum"? hobnobView Member Profile Junior Member Group: Registered Users Posts: 3 Joined: 17-March 02 Member No.: 2,171 Our issue is that what you are doing here isn't by any means a "test" of the working ability of your dogs, therefore you aren't breeding "working dogs." Also, you've never trained a pup from start to the Open level - it's not possible to evaluate a potential breeder honestly until you've done that training yourself at least once. Before you come back from the Land of Lurkdom and chide this forum for the stand we take on breeding Border Collies, you should READ THIS FIRST. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Ms. DeMello - I was under the impression that you were one of the core people who opposed the recognition of the Border Collie by the AKC. If so (and I may be mistaken but I read that you were one of those opposing that recognition), would you mind explaining what caused you to change your mind and instead become a supporter and proponent of the Border Collie as an AKC-registered, conformation-shown, breed? I'm not looking for flaming and I hope no one chooses to do so - I would simply like to hear your viewpoint and what changed your mind with regard to this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziggzmom Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 They probably would like to get rid of the stock sense - it only gets in the way. I found that with obedience people that i met. They could have cared less about stock sense. And the heading instinct just was a huge nuisance. They wanted it gone. They just like the speed and the bidability. Obedience person here that wants a dog with stock sense.... Janet ETA I was wondering if you could elaborate on how stock sense gets in the way and herding instinct is a huge nuisance in an obedience dog? I love my dogs border collie-ness and wouldn't change a thing about them=) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman 101 Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 They probably would like to get rid of the stock sense - it only gets in the way. I found that with obedience people that i met. They could have cared less about stock sense. And the heading instinct just was a huge nuisance. They wanted it gone. They just like the speed and the bidability. ----------------- I suspect that the BC characteristics in working lines are a great attribute to agility competitors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 "Not breeding for color" lol I'd say many here would disagree based on the front page of the HN website. all I wrote was colors are certainly a "big deal" based on all the colored dogs brought in (in one way or the other) and how ecstatic they get with the rare colors. Ya know, there are plenty of breeders who get their hands on nicely bred working dogs for their breeding program, but it doesn't mean those breeders are in turn breeding working dogs. Just look at Astra. I just got a long email from Jan's partner chastising me for my post here. Didn't read it all yet, but came here to see what was going on. Too bad if you're offended, I spoke the truth and stand by what I wrote. No I'm not a big hat and never plan to be, but I have started my own dogs (with lots of help from people here and others), so I understand plenty and can recognize good effective training when I see it, and the opposite as well. But I can also understand how hard it might be to bring home and execute what was learned in lessons, or how it might be hard to set up the right scenario for training your dog. I took all this into consideration based on what I saw. Oh yeah, and HELL YES I AM AN "ANTI-AKC PURIST" and PROUD OF IT. Thanks for the compliment chickadee! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Aside from "color" being a main point and the ACK aspect, I have met a few nice HN dogs. What I can't get past is the fact that the sire of this litter was what - less than a year old when bred??? Fusion OFA Prelim Litter Announcement How do you evaluate working when the pup is too young to work much less evaluate? Unless he is simply spectacular and then we'd have seen him running Nursery, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Well Karen, The reason for breeding certainly couldn't be for all the rich colors and patterns. She said so! J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 "The goal of my breeding program is to produce a versatile border collie that can excel in all dog sports which include agility, herding, obedience, and flyball." Well according to the above statement on her website, she is not breeding for working ability, just sports. Including the sport of herding, which I assume would be the ACK title seekers. This is purely a sports breeder, not a working breeder. If someone wants to pay $1250-$3000 for a sports puppy, then that's their prerogative. I surely won't. I am curious why there isn't a set puppy price for all puppies sold on a S/N contract (varies from $1250-1500)? Are they like other breeders who charge more for weird candy colors like "gold"? I've asked gail/jan to clarify this, as I really am curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 ETA I was wondering if you could elaborate on how stock sense gets in the way and herding instinct is a huge nuisance in an obedience dog? I love my dogs border collie-ness and wouldn't change a thing about them=) I have had a couple of obedience people tell me this. What they said was that the dogs were too much inclined to anticipate, and they were inclined to run curvy rather than straight when sent on go-outs. I find the second hard to believe (almost sounds like a joke), but the first might be true. Nothing that couldn't be dealt with through good training, though, I would say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziggzmom Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 I have had a couple of obedience people tell me this. What they said was that the dogs were too much inclined to anticipate, and they were inclined to run curvy rather than straight when sent on go-outs. I find the second hard to believe (almost sounds like a joke), but the first might be true. Nothing that couldn't be dealt with through good training, though, I would say. Hi Eileen, Thanks for your reply=) How sad for those people that they didn't appreciate how eager their dogs were to please them....Anticipation is great! It means that the dog is really trying to do what he thinks you want. It's my job as the trainer to teach my dog to really listen to me and for me to keep things interesting and not be predictable. That's what I love about this breed, they usually want to please us so much and will try their best if we just 'explain' what we want them to do....Even 'boring' obedience-LOL..... As to the curving on go-outs....Instead of running straight out to the go out location, the dog will bow out one way or another. My Novice A dog(a Belgian Sheepdog) was really bad about this. But you're right, it can be dealt with through good training-what a concept-LOL! Happy Training~ Janet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 ....Anticipation is great! Janet Unless things have changed, anticipation was points off in obedience competition. Some obedience judges would ding you on a recall that wasn't straight. Rules is rules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Anticipation is great! It means that the dog is really trying to do what he thinks you want. It's my job as the trainer to teach my dog to really listen to me and for me to keep things interesting and not be predictable. How interesting, sounds like we could be talking about stockdog training. Small world.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziggzmom Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Unless things have changed, anticipation was points off in obedience competition. Some obedience judges would ding you on a recall that wasn't straight. Rules is rules Hi, Sorry, I guess I didn't explain myself very well=).... You're right about anticipation....That's why you teach them to wait for what you tell them, or signal them(depending on the class), to do. The anticipation shows that the dog is trying to do what you want, you need to teach him/her to wait until you tell them what it is=) Yep, if the dog doesn't do a straight recall, go out, retrieve, etc. that is definately something the judge can hit you for(the rules call for the dog to go 'directly', so any deviation can be scored). It's also something that you can teach the dog to do correctly. My Belgian that arced so badly in the beginning of her training on go outs ended up having lovely straight go outs by the time I started trialing her=) Regards~ Janet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.