Canaan Ranch border collies

[Smokjbc]

I sure hope not because the object lesson that I would take home from that exercise were I an eighteen week old pup is "no you can't work the sheep. You can only look at the sheep.

 

Pearse

 

My favorite lesson that pup learned was right about :45... sheep stamps foot at pup, pup comes forward with conviction and ready to respond bravely and...GETS PULLED BACK!

 

Fabulous.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

So I had my friend Janet watch this video. Pearse knows her also. She is a new handler and I gave her my Scotty to run. She also does sheep chores around here and is working her Smithfield sheepdog. She has gone from Novice to PN, since December.

 

So I just made her watch this video and asked her for opinion in regards on how I train my pups/dogs. Realize she is new but has watched as well comes out 2x a week and runs Scott in trials. I also had her work my 5 month old in the round pen.

 

First words out of her mouth:

 

Hum, this is not like at all what YOU made me do with Kira. Kira got to bring the sheep to me.

 

(I edited some parts out here)

 

Then again, everyone starts their pup differently. Maybe she starts with this style and the end result is her dogs can run a course. I would like to see that video.

[Rave]

Here is how the training progresses.... (different dog, not a puppy)

 

[Pearse]

Here is how the training progresses.... (different dog, not a puppy)

 

 

 

That's just all kinds of wrong. Poor dog was not allowed to cover or come on balance once. The dog stops and sits on the wrong side of the sheep probably having been "trained" to do that. You could see he wanted to go around them at first, and the eejit with the stick would block him before he got to balance every time. Eventually, he got the message and gave up.

 

Once upon a time, when I was ruining, I mean training, my first dog (then a pup) a more experienced handler happened to be watching the debacle. She hit me over the head with her stock stick, ordered me to;

 

1) get rid of my stock stick and put my hands in my pockets and keep them there (no waving anything at the dog)

2) SHUT UP - no talking to the dog

3) NEVER get between the dog and the sheep unless the sheep need protection (lots of running backwards when the dog gets to balance).

 

Told the owner of the sheep "next time he comes out, have a pair of handcuffs and a roll of duct tape for over his mouth handy"

 

One of the best "lessons" I ever got. Shut up, get out of the way, let the dog work.

 

Later, it took Kathy Knox less than five minutes to show me how not to put my dog wrong in a round pen by not getting in its way.

 

Later variations on the theme from other good handlers.

- step in with correction only when the dog is wrong otherwise let the dog work. It will figure things out on its own.

- try to set it up so the dog can't be wrong, then let the dog work

- the more real work you give that dog, the sooner it will figure out how to do it and quit some of that silliness.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

OK, I spoke too soon....

 

 

Video of a dog doing outruns. Nice outrun and turn at the top.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

OK, I spoke too soon....

 

 

Video of a dog doing outruns. Nice outrun and turn at the top.

So why is the dog back on a line for most of the video?

[juliepoudrier]

I would have guessed the line was to work on driving, but the dog doesn't seem to be actually influencing where the sheep go--just following and lying down on command. And then once off the line again, it seemed the dog was having difficulty finding balance, though some of that may have been the handler.

 

J.

[jdarling]

In the video posted by Rave of Fusion working, Jan gets the sheep and Fusion into the upper left corner, stands between Fusion and the sheep, sends Fusion into the corner, and then when I thought there couldn't possibly be any more pressure, she steps towards Fusion in the corner ... every time. Sometimes he hesitates to go in there, and sometimes he goes in without much conviction.

 

The training Jan is doing, is this proper use of Marc Christopher's methods? Is he an open handler? Does anyone know him or seen him trial or anything? The only reason I'm asking is because (among other things) I've never seen this "method" used, I don't understand this application of the long line (I thought it was used to start to teach the drive), and I have been taught to use my body pressure much differently. I'm curious if this methods actually work for him.

[Sue R]

I have seen a USBHCA Open handler (a very nice handler, I think) who is also heavily into AKC, who is a great proponent of MC - at least that's my assumption, as she hosts/supports quite a few of his clinics each year.

[ItsADogsLyfe]

Are the ears of the puppy in the first video glued? I ask because they looked unatural to me and they don't seem to move. It was sad watching this pup with so much keenness get stalled off the sheep because the handler wouldn't let her work. If she had let the pup go the sheep probably would have moved off instead of facing her down. You can see the pup lose interest after awhile of not being able to get the sheep when they run off.

[Little Bo Boop]

That's just all kinds of wrong. Poor dog was not allowed to cover or come on balance once. The dog stops and sits on the wrong side of the sheep probably having been "trained" to do that. You could see he wanted to go around them at first, and the eejit with the stick would block him before he got to balance every time. Eventually, he got the message and gave up.

 

Once upon a time, when I was ruining, I mean training, my first dog (then a pup) a more experienced handler happened to be watching the debacle. She hit me over the head with her stock stick, ordered me to;

 

1) get rid of my stock stick and put my hands in my pockets and keep them there (no waving anything at the dog)

2) SHUT UP - no talking to the dog

3) NEVER get between the dog and the sheep unless the sheep need protection (lots of running backwards when the dog gets to balance).

 

Told the owner of the sheep "next time he comes out, have a pair of handcuffs and a roll of duct tape for over his mouth handy"

 

One of the best "lessons" I ever got. Shut up, get out of the way, let the dog work.

 

Later, it took Kathy Knox less than five minutes to show me how not to put my dog wrong in a round pen by not getting in its way.

 

Later variations on the theme from other good handlers.

- step in with correction only when the dog is wrong otherwise let the dog work. It will figure things out on its own.

- try to set it up so the dog can't be wrong, then let the dog work

- the more real work you give that dog, the sooner it will figure out how to do it and quit some of that silliness.

 

 

 

Great story.

[Little Bo Boop]

Watching those videos is extremely painful, especially the pup ;-( makes you just want to go out there, tell the 'handler' to go grab a donut, and you'll work her dogs for her ;-) and then Turn 'em loose!

[Laurae]

Can anyone tell me, in all of these videos and with the trainer's methods that DTrain's group were using,

 

what is the point?

 

I mean it, what is the objective? On that last video Rave posted, the description said that Fusion has "come a remarkably long way." Really? How so? Is he less likely to try to break and more likely to follow along docilely? What is the final outcome he is he moving toward? Is it supposed to be driving? Is there ever any gathering? Any flanking? Anything besides following? What is the end picture of a trained dog supposed to look like?

[Journey]

I have seen a USBHCA Open handler (a very nice handler, I think) who is also heavily into AKC, who is a great proponent of MC - at least that's my assumption, as she hosts/supports quite a few of his clinics each year.

 

 

Claudia Frank in Ohio?

 

http://hobnob7.livejournal.com/10611.html

 

The original entry is gone, at least the one I read a few days ago bashing this board and us "purists"....the one that looked like a copy and paste with some rearranging.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I don't know about other people, but my measure of a dog that has emerged from "started" training to the "polish" stages is his or her ability to be fully useful during lambing. I work ewes and lambs from birth so it's a good test of the basics to my novice eye.

 

Sam will be only eleven months old this coming season, so it's highly unlikely he'll be ready for that pressure. Next year almost for sure. God willing.

 

It's difficult to look at videos like these and imagine where this rope business would fit in, in February, when Sam sees his first ewes and lambs. Generally I start a youngster, his first lambing, helping to hold older lambs and ewes in the working pen. Super easy, only new/scary thing is the ewe/lamb factor.

[agilityrunningdogs]

Has anybody noticed the age of her new (lilac?) pup? He apparently "arrived at 5 weeks old". Is it just me, or is that way to young to be sold/traded/whatever she did to acquire the poor dear? I don't mean to start another argument, but this has just been bugging me.

[Sue R]

Has anybody noticed the age of her new (lilac?) pup? He apparently "arrived at 5 weeks old". Is it just me, or is that way to young to be sold/traded/whatever she did to acquire the poor dear? I don't mean to start another argument, but this has just been bugging me.

I noticed that and wondered. Orphan? Some other situation? Way too young otherwise...

[Smokjbc]

I don't know about other people, but my measure of a dog that has emerged from "started" training to the "polish" stages is his or her ability to be fully useful during lambing. I work ewes and lambs from birth so it's a good test of the basics to my novice eye.

 

Sam will be only eleven months old this coming season, so it's highly unlikely he'll be ready for that pressure. Next year almost for sure. God willing.

 

It's difficult to look at videos like these and imagine where this rope business would fit in, in February, when Sam sees his first ewes and lambs. Generally I start a youngster, his first lambing, helping to hold older lambs and ewes in the working pen. Super easy, only new/scary thing is the ewe/lamb factor.

 

I agree with that- one thing I will miss ALOT about my Jane, who just left me to start a new life in CT- is that she was so good with ewes and lambs. I have a 2 1/2 acre lot where the sheep live, and there is a hill with a house on the back side of the lot- to watch her patiently bring down each ewe and lamb was a lesson in what these dogs are meant to do. The youngster Jet is learning, but she has no where near the patience yet. I have found with the young dogs, they will surprise you one way or another the first time you put them on ewes with new lambs. Mike's Brice, when he was two said "NO WAY!", mostly because he was such a landshark youngster, he didn't know he could stand up for himself. The next lambing season, he was his usual pushy self and does well with them, just needs to learn when to "not work".

[Rave]

In my google research yesterday of this method, it seemed to be quite popular with AKC handlers and also handlers of non-BC breeds. Is it just me, or does this method seem to start with driving instead of gathering? I tried to find the philosophy behind this method on MC's website, but got redirected to his "catalog" page where he was selling stuff (from dogs to seminars). Can anyone explain in a nutshell?

[Debbie Meier]

Critiquing other handlers videos/pictures is a tough thing, you can find fault in most, I tend to keep the comments to myself rather then to post them in public, and I think most people do out of respect for the person posting the video/picture. The only reason I am posting my comments now is not out of disrespect, I don't know Jan but I respect her regardless if I agree or disagree with how she conducts her business, quite frankly I don't know enough about her business to pass judgement, and don't know that it is my position to do so. I hope that if she reads this that she understands that it is not meant to belittle, it's possible that she would agree with my comments.

 

First, disclaimer, I only could view a few seconds of each video, my computer shows me a second or two then pauses for a few minutes and then shows me another few seconds, so I will try to go down to the library this evening to watch them at length, but I don't know that it is relative or would change what I am going to say.

 

You know that I have worked with Marc, I don't keep it a secret (though maybe he would wish I did ), he was here last, mid summer last year. At that time, I asked him to help me with my pups that were 5 months old. We did not approach their training in the way Jan did, Jan appears to be applying her understanding and usage of the cord and stock stick based on her success with other dogs, as any of us would regardless of which method we are trying to follow. I think, over time she would get the pup working in a manner that is acceptable to her, but I don't think she is approaching it in a manner that would bring it around as quickly as she could. The tools could be used more effectively, but everyone has limitations based on personal ability.

 

But, please note!!! From what I have read, Jan has had two knee surguries and may feel that how she is doing it is the only way she can, taking her safety into consideration, and I applaud her for getting out there and doing it. The way Marc and I worked with my pups would have been different if I was unable to get to the right places to help teach that pup, he's going to set things up in an effort to get training success. Yeah, maybe it is at the expense of the dog, maybe it is just a temporary set back. But, I too believe that these dogs are resiliant, as we get better at showing them what we want and accepting the right things they will still blossom, maybe not to the level they could have been, but how many dogs are truely developed to their potential? You have to face it, your own dog may have been better if trained by someone else, but the dog may also have been washed out and not given the opportunity to develop into what it is under your watch. We each have to do the best we can by our dogs and ourselves. I have a friend that comes up here to work her dog, she's having a bugger of a time, it's not the dog, it's the combination of her and the dog. Her dog could be trained to do open level work, I know that I could run Pro-novice with him, field size is not a problem for him, he just won't follow her lead (he's not willing to consider her desires). Yeah, she could send the dog to training, but it would not be best for her, she would still have the same problem.

 

There were couple of things I noted when I watched the first .47 seconds of the puppy video. Jan was just taking the dog or allowing the dog to just take her to the sheep, I don't think Marc would have allowed me to do that and if he did he would then asked me what I just taught my dog, trying to get me think about how my actions effect the expirence of the dog. At least that is what is going through my mind, yeah, I hear him talking me through (don't laugh, he can be a tough sucker to get out of your head). When we worked with my pups, we first let them show us what they had but being careful to not set them up for failure, yes they were dragging a cord, but they were not dragging me. They immediately showed a sense of balance and would hunt a pressure point that would lock the stock up, if the stock tried to move they would just shift enough to lock them up again, both sheep and dog would lock hard and fast.

 

Marc suggested that I don't allow that (not saying never allow, just don't allow that to be the main habit), it's ok that the dog can stop the sheep but allowing that ability to develop exclusely is quite useless, and as I think about it having a dog that goes to sheep and then locks them to the fence or holds them up in the middle of the field is annoying, I've found that if my dogs fail on an outrun it is due to them hunting a control point before getting around to the lift. JJ did it the other day in his first trial, I just stopped him reflanked him and he was off on his way to the top, and it's just not my dog, I have a dog here from another trainer that did the same thing, he would try to get her to fetch the sheep and she would just get drawn in and grip, trying to get the sheep to stop that way. Some people would say just get walking with your sheep, keep them moving, been there done that, causes more anxiety especially when the dog wants so badly to have the sheep stop. If I tried to move the sheep the pup would run around and lock them back up again, so moving the sheep would amplify the problem giving the pup more practice, Jake their daddy was a pro at that, it was a huge undertaking for me to get that under control. What did Marc show me to do? We would bump the pup of the balance point, yeah it sounds wrong, but when the dog is on balance and you flank him off balance you are verbally bumping him off the balance point, we just let the pup know early on that it is ok to leave balance when we say so (our bump was saying so), but then we also have to be careful that they don't think that they never can be on the balance point, otherwise you might get the mindless circling. By doing it early on the pup was ok with it, it was not being manifested as a disobedience so the pup was not wrong about anything and we were on our merry way. With my pups, by not overdeveloping that urge in the pups, training them has been worlds easier, though the urge is still there, JJ decided that he was not going to allow the sheep to enter the pen at a trial last weekend, feeling that they were going to escape into the pen turd., back to obedience, when we are penning we are driving (drive the sheep toward me, past me and then into the pen), don't be leaking into a flank that finds a new balance point. I try to discourage random swapping in and out from driving (or fetching if the dog is bring the sheep your way) on a defined balance point to flanking around to the balance point that prevents motion in the sheep or changes their predefined direction, I think most trainers do, maybe it is just explained differently or they handle it a little differently based on the success they have had with the dogs that they have trained.

 

Early on before Marc showed me what he would do with my pups I probably would have done exactly as Jan did, but now, applying the same scenario, as I was taking the pup toward the sheep, rather then staying on the path Jan did I would have looked for the pup to make contact with the sheep (based on the response of the sheep) when the pup made contact I would be looking for what the pup felt was right, ideally the pup would have stopped or flanked, if the pup choose to continue to apply pressure straight at the sheep giving them no clear path or disregarding the movement of the sheep I would have stopped the pup. By allowing the pup to continue and not honor the sheep, it's just going to lead to a sheep explosion or entrappment of the sheep followed by annoyed sheep (hey didn't a ewe start stomping). If the pup choose stop, that's great let the pup evaluate the sheep, after a minute if the pup did not initiate anything else I would look at the situation, what would an expirenced dog do right now or what would I ask that dog to do? Flank! I would ask the pup to do something, strongly suggesting that he flanks by leading him in that direction. As long as the pup stayed correct he could flank, he could even opt to stop if he wanted to, that's and ok answer. More then likely it would only be a few feet, maybe a few yards, just feed out cord and ask for a stop before you run out of cord and set it back up in hopes of building more distance, as distance and trust is built let that pup roll on out around the sheep just dragging the cord. We would do this until we could get to a place where a walk up line could be established. I fear that the area she is in is too big and the sheep would have taken flight if she had done that, so I would not have been out in that field with that pup on a cord unless I could trust that he could flank properly and that I could stop it. In order to get a quiet drive the pup would have had to be way out further then where Jan had it, IMO, it was on too much pressure.

 

The other thing I noticed was the pup all over the place on the end of the cord and pulling quite badly, from my dealings with Marc that is unacceptable and it's a lot of useless energy spent, while allowing the pups mind to be all over the place. Yeah, he might let you struggle with it until you figure out that your not getting any where and then suggest that you get your pup leading properly on the leash. Each time that pup was pulling I would have liked to see instead a stop and steady (not verbally, just get the pup to be still) instead, followed by a release of cord pressure (calm the body, calm the mind). Or the other option would have been a flank out to cover with a release of cord pressure. There was some, ok alot of restraining going on. Now, is she hurting the pups drive or desire, I don't know, the pup is taking alot of pressure and still trying so that's actually a good thing, and actually the pup might be developing a little more drive and intensity then it would have had he just being left to approach those sheep on his own, to me those sheep looked like they were either going to run off or challange and I don't think I would have been in that big of a field for that approach, just too much work and ground to cover for me in an effort to both protect the sheep and the pup (more so the pup).

 

So is this a good demonstration of Marc's methods, no, not really, no disrespect to Jan, it's hard to repoduce what Marc does unless you have seen him work through the exact situation, and I don't think she was trying to. She was doing the best she could based on what has worked for her in the past with other dogs, utilizing the tools that Marc has tried to teach her to use properly. Your seeing Jan's method of training which is influenced by what she has learned from Marc and probably many other trainers. When we work with all these other trainers we are only getting information limited to the situation at hand, change the situation/dog/handler and the information changes a bit, you can't just put a dog on a cord, armed with a stock stick and apply what you saw me do with my dog to your dog, you have to understand what it is you are trying to teach. I think that is were everything runs amuck, we want to put things into neat catagories, if then then this, know the exact answer to each problem, but it don't work that way. Training is more of an art, one trainer may be a little more gifted then the next, how you gifted you are may influence the tools you use and how you use them.

 

My visual of Marc approaching the situation would have been the pup dragging a cord, more to judge how much the cord would distract the pup from the task at hand, the pup would have been already taught how to properly be lead and placed with the cord before ever going to sheep, in reality he would probably would have had an idea as to how easily distracted the pup was with cord and had worked through that before ever going to sheep. As the pup is engaging the sheep I could see Marc monitoring the pups reactions, is that a good thing or is that leading to a good thing, will that lead to a bad thing, if it is a good thing be quiet and let the pup learn, if it is a bad thing just step in and make that thing a little difficult so that the pup chooses something else, also, if we let that bad thing happen and the pup learn a lesson from the sheep, if so let's let it happen but if the sheep don't teach the lesson we need to step in and help. Now if you step in and the pup blows you off and insists to continue on there will be a consequence. I made a mention of the cord bothering the pup, if it does Marc don't take it off, the pup has to learn to do it's job regardless of distractions, if a thin little cord is enough to distract them you have a drive issue. Now, if a thin little cord with me attached to them does not distract regardless of what I do, then I have quite frankly, another problem .

 

I also have to consider, what would the outcome have been if she had just let go of the cord, and could she have safely taught the pup anything if the pup did not just come by the right decisions on it's own. Probably not based on the learning environment that was displayed. I guess this is a hard thing to grasp, but what I have seen is that if you set yourself up in a comprimised situation while utilizing one method you will do it with another.

 

Everyone learns something different when going to clinics/lessons, some of what I have walked away with since working with Marc, first and foremost, the importance of a good teaching/learning relationship between me and my dog. Second, a better understanding as to how pressure effects the sheep along with the proper places to be in to get the reactions I desire. And, third, an understanding of how the dog should be interacting with the sheep while exectuing the commands I have given him. It all goes back to developing timing and having an understanding of when the dog is right or wrong.

 

When I worked with the other trainers I was missing parts, we either focused on getting the dog to stop, or on trying to get the dog to widen out or get in closer, we never stopped to discuss why the dog was not stopping or why we need to widen them our or bring them in closer. In some cases I have to wonder if the trainer understood why they were doing it themselves, now I watch some of those same trainers I see that they have to manually adjust their dogs on their flanks or stop them when things get stressful for fear of gripping out. To me it is frustrating to work with other people, most don't want to know why, they just want to be told what to do and when to do it. When you have that type of mindset I don't think you can get far in training dogs, I can't tell you what to do next, I can tell you what might happen and what to prepare for, but you gotta know what to do next and when to do it.

 

Also, you can't force feed information or control how it is processed, you can only put it out there and hope for the best and trust that person will be smart enough to realize that what they are doing is not working for them or their dog and hope that they will seek out change. There is nothing wrong with that, it is what you want, Karrin (dracina) is and example of that, and I respect her for wanting to know more and hunting the answers.

 

Anyway, long winded enough. Flame away!!!

 

Deb

 

edited to fix some nasty errors and fragmented sentences and thoughts (sorry guys, my fingers don't always type at the speed of my brain, and I bet I did not catch them all!!!)

[Rave]

Deb just an FYI if you have a slow computer connection and want to watch any videos. Start the video for a second, then hit pause and go browse in another window for awhile. Go back and watch it after it's been cached in the background and it should play straight through.

[jeff77]

I think we kind of got off the subject!

 

I have a BC dog from Canaan Ranch and was looking for other BC’s that came from Canaan Ranch. My girl Emma is 9no. now and loves agility and playing ball. She is a very smart girl that learns really quickly and always wants to work for me.

 

Can anyone tell me how there Canaan Ranch BC turned out??

 

I know alot of them end up in a foster home or at a BC rescue. I don’t think it’s a breading problem it’s because the owners did not do there home work before the got there BC. I noticed a lot of the BC that are on the NW BC RESCUE are still very young. What do people think that they can get a BC and have it trained in a week!!! I know there very smart but they are like 2 year old kids.

 

http://www.pnwbcrescue.org/dogs.php?ShelterId=WA

[Shetlander]

Can anyone tell me how there Canaan Ranch BC turned out??

 

I know alot of them end up in a foster home or at a BC rescue. I don’t think it’s a breading problem it’s because the owners did not do there home work before the got there BC.

 

Well, yes and no. Yes, there are tons of people out there who have no business owning any dog, much less a smart, active dog like a Border Collie. But I have to wonder about a breeder who places so many puppies that end up in rescue. Sounds like too many puppies being bred, little to no criteria for buying a puppy (as long as they have the money) and a depressing lack of truly caring about the dogs she is producing and sending out into the world. I'd always hope a breeder would stand by her dogs, taking them back if things don't work out. At the very least, if a breeder saw her puppies were not working out in homes, I'd expect that breeder to reexamine her program and and make some drastic changes the number of litters and who is allowed to buy a puppy or dog. To me that is a breeder with some ethics who truly cares about her dogs regardless of what type she is producing.

 

That doesn't mean Emma is anything but a wonderful girl. I have a wonderful boy, sports bred, the absolute perfect Border Collie for me from the wrong breeder (well, actually now I'd want to go through rescue). As much as I love Quinn, I would never go to his breeders again and would warn people away from them.

 

There was one person who had experience with Canaan Ranch dogs who posted way at the beginning of the thread. When a thread brushes on a topic near and dear to this forum (breeding is HUGE), then these discussions do have a way of taking off in directions the OP never thought of. I hope you stick around. I've learned so much since I joined and really enjoy coming here.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

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