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What is a breeder's responsibility?


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Does anyone remember whether Bob Modica's Kit had FHO on both hips or hip replacements? He doesn't trial anymore, but he was running her when I was running Twist in nursery (2003-2004) and you'd never have known that Kit had surgery on both hips--she was a nice little working dog. As I've stated here many times before, I have a successful open trial dog (now retired) who has very bad hips (and it's finally catching up to her now that she's nearly 13). She never did anything while working to lead her owner to believe there was a problem--the bad hips were discovered when the owner had her hips checked prior to breeding her (and the result of the check ended up in a spay for the dog). I guess we can wonder whether she worked despite pain or if she even felt any pain--I tend to believe that she wasn't painful in her younger years. Now that arthritis has set in, I imagine she is painful, and the difference is pretty darn clear to me.

 

Anyway, the point of this rambling is to say that even if the OP's friend wanted the dog for work, there's nothing to say that the dog can't ever do that, especially if the owner has some sort of surgery done, and it doesn't have to be a full hip replacement in order to get the dog sound and pain-free enough to do some of the stuff the owner wants to do.

 

J.

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I'm with Debbie on this one. You have a very young, very active (Border Collies and horses, about the same!) animals with serious problems that will bother them to some degree for life. We also have to look at the financial realities. This surgery is going to cost them a lot of money, and even the best of orthopedic repairs are more prone to arthritis later. The pup will spend a lot of time confined to recover too - and then possibly still be limited in the range of activities in can enjoy. I wouldn't for example, ever be comfortable putting a puppy with hip replacemnts or fho in agility or frisbee (I know some people do it, but I can't emotionally based on my knowledge of the degree of pain these conditions has in humans). Difficult herding (touch stock, tough terrain) is out too.

 

I would cry and wail for days if this was my puppy, and I would euthanize it and get another puppy (or perhaps an adult, lets avoid this debate again) later when I was ready.

 

There are hundreds and hundreds of dogs (just not border collies) in this exact situation that have had surgery and gone on to live excellent pain free lives, whether as active pets or agility to some degree or another. There are rescue organizations that are prepared to take on the financial responsibility of getting the surgery and rehab done and finding the right home for these dogs. There are individuals that are prepared to take on the financial responsibility. I know of a lot of dogs that have had CHD and had one type of surgery or another and have not live their life in pain. There is no reason for it to be death sentence because it can't herd sheep. They don't pine their hearts away because they can no longer herd sheep, do agility, etc.

 

ALthough not hip surgery our rescue took in a 5 month old pup with a broken leg - the growth plate in the ulna in the left front leg was fractured and the guy had just splinted it for 5 weeks and did nothiong else. By the time we got her, the radus was bowed out tremendously, there was space between the wrist joints and elbow joints and the left paw flopped around like it wasn't even connected by bone. He couldn't afford to to anymore financialily and his dad said to just shoot it.

 

THANKFULLY, the vet he took it to knows us well and told him to contact us. We took her in, spent the $4,000.00 on the surgery and I fostered her. She was confined except for walking on leash from July to December 3, 2008 when she was given the go ahead to just be a dog. The elbow joint is normal, the wrist joint is normal as a result of the surgery and the ligaments and tendons in her pastern and foot are fine. There is just about a 5% laxity in the ligaments in that foot. She can't do agility or flyball as there is still a slight bow in that leg, but other than that she can do whatever she wants. She has gone to an active pet home who loves her dearly and she is as happy as a claim. This kind of injury would never have allowed her to work stock, but it didn't mean it had to be a death sentence for her either.

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Northof49 you are not looking at the whole pictures. This puppy has hd, generalized demodetic mange, and now a seizure. This is not a simple case of "fix it and it's better".

 

 

There are hundreds and hundreds of dogs (just not border collies) in this exact situation that have had surgery and gone on to live excellent pain free lives, whether as active pets or agility to some degree or another. There are rescue organizations that are prepared to take on the financial responsibility of getting the surgery and rehab done and finding the right home for these dogs. There are individuals that are prepared to take on the financial responsibility. I know of a lot of dogs that have had CHD and had one type of surgery or another and have not live their life in pain. There is no reason for it to be death sentence because it can't herd sheep. They don't pine their hearts away because they can no longer herd sheep, do agility, etc.

 

ALthough not hip surgery our rescue took in a 5 month old pup with a broken leg - the growth plate in the ulna in the left front leg was fractured and the guy had just splinted it for 5 weeks and did nothiong else. By the time we got her, the radus was bowed out tremendously, there was space between the wrist joints and elbow joints and the left paw flopped around like it wasn't even connected by bone. He couldn't afford to to anymore financialily and his dad said to just shoot it.

 

THANKFULLY, the vet he took it to knows us well and told him to contact us. We took her in, spent the $4,000.00 on the surgery and I fostered her. She was confined except for walking on leash from July to December 3, 2008 when she was given the go ahead to just be a dog. The elbow joint is normal, the wrist joint is normal as a result of the surgery and the ligaments and tendons in her pastern and foot are fine. There is just about a 5% laxity in the ligaments in that foot. She can't do agility or flyball as there is still a slight bow in that leg, but other than that she can do whatever she wants. She has gone to an active pet home who loves her dearly and she is as happy as a claim. This kind of injury would never have allowed her to work stock, but it didn't mean it had to be a death sentence for her either.

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eta: another thing Debbie that I've noticed is that congenital malformation never occur alone. So if you see one problem with a pup that you think "that's ok in a non-breeding home" you better think twice, and look more.....it's not the only problem.

This is what one of our vets predicted about Bute and he was, sadly, right. We've learned a very painful lesson with regards to this very thing occuring.

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My question is if a puppy with these significant problems (severe hip dysplasia, demodetic mange, and now a seizure), this early, can have that.

 

Time out - where is it said that this pup has these problems as well? Or am I just lost on this...

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Didn't that dog end up being rehomed because of her behavior? Trim right?

 

No indeed. I never saw Trim as a newborn or at all until she was about four weeks old - and went home with me a few days later.

 

Ann AKA "The Screamer" is a very sweet dog, cool with everyone and everything - she traveled everywhere with me from a tiny pup and was a favorite in hotel lobbies. She was a rockin' "truck dog." At trials she'd crawl into people's laps and then stick her nose in their drinks, if they had soda, her favorite.

 

She probably could have even been turned into an okay working dog but I wasn't willing to "go there." I kept her until she was a little over two and no temperament or physical problem ever emerged - in fact, she was an outstanding, humble, eager to please, fun little dog. She was the first dog I ever had that actually enjoyed sleeping on the bed with us and she never took advantage of that.

 

Ann's issue was she liked the taste of sheep too much. She has an incredibly strong prey drive. The first time she was sent out on an official runway clearing job, she outran the snow geese taking off and took one down. That is NOT supposed to happen! Thankfully she had a really good "leave it" command, too - and the goose was more or less unharmed.

 

There was no reason to euth Ann. She totally could have lived happily in a variety of situations without ever thinking about sheep again. If I hadn't had the chance to place her as a bird dog, it would have been quite easy to find plenty of other outlets for her goofiness. So the question at hand didn't apply to her.

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She probably could have even been turned into an okay working dog but I wasn't willing to "go there." I kept her until she was a little over two and no temperament or physical problem ever emerged - in fact, she was an outstanding, humble, eager to please, fun little dog. She was the first dog I ever had that actually enjoyed sleeping on the bed with us and she never took advantage of that.

 

Explain further please. How does that example fit with having no patience? We've hijacked the thread nicely now <sigh> but I'm too interested not to ask.

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Time out - where is it said that this pup has these problems as well? Or am I just lost on this...

That is from the line I did in the health section that I did when we first found out about the hips. His demodectic mange was not generalized. He just had patches - some were probably a couple of inches across. He had them from the time he was 4 months to about 9 months. One place would heal up and the hair would grow back and then another patch would appear. But I think he is pretty much over that.

 

Several of my puppies have had this stuff and it never amounted to anything. But I think mine were all better after about 6 weeks - I can't remember for sure. Maybe it was longer than that.

 

And, like I said, they really thought the siezure was due to the medicine he was on. He hasn't had one since.

 

But its always a worry when a very young dog has health problems. I'm just hoping that his overall health is OK. I think only time will tell. I'm going to have one completely devasted friend if we can't get him fixed up.

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Explain further please. How does that example fit with having no patience?

 

Ann is a very good natured dog and eager to please. Most of the time what she wanted to do was what we wanted to do. If our purposes crossed, she had little natural impulse control and her prey drive was a HUGE trigger. A dog can be hot headed and not a public nuisance or a euthanasia candidate. It's just if you turned Ann "off," the experts I worked with felt strongly that there'd be little actual stock sense left. Luck of the genetic draw. I worked with her littermate and he was seriously awesome. Unfortunately he wasn't mine and my job was to get him ready to sell, for the benefit of his late owner's widow.

 

Ann was incredibly active in the whelping box, doing laps around her mom after feeding times when the others were napping - literally from birth. She'd get on top of her mom, who was very sweet and didn't dare move and dump her off, and she'd start shrieking bloody murder. That happened so often the first week, her breeder finally stopped getting up and rescuing her.

 

After her eyes opened and she went from paddling to waddling, the screaming stopped.

 

You'll just have to believe me that there was nothing at all wrong with Ann. :rolleyes: Trim's the only dog of my own that I've ever had that was even the least bit "off" mentally.

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What if people stopped breeding dogs? I'm no expert about genetics, but surely that would drastically reduce hip dysplasia in the dog population.

Yes. That would work. But then we would have no border collies. And life without border collies would be no life at all.

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Yes. That would work. But then we would have no border collies. And life without border collies would be no life at all.

 

 

Durga agrees. I read her your comment and she stretched, yawned, and looked rather smug. Then I pointed out how nice it might be not to be in charge of everything all the time. Rather exhausting, isn't it? I asked her. She has retreated (sulkily) into the next room.

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I think the breeder is doing their best. Since it is the new owner's decision to do surgery, and not the breeder's, I feel that it's the owner's responsibilty to take care of payment and care.

My boss is huge into showing Irish Wolfhounds and after purchasing her last show dog from an excellent bloodline, he ended up have severe leg deformities as he grew. Since she could not show him, the breeder offered to give her first pick on the next litter or refund her monies. In the end, my boss was refunded as having 3 Irish Wolfhounds can get quite expensive to care for. And Romeo does just fine - he just looks pigeon-toed. :rolleyes:

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I bought a puppy (not a BC) last year and because I knew that there are increasing problems in this breed with ED I picked a breeder who appeared to be doing the right thing - hips, eyes, elbows, deafness. She knew I was picking out my next young performance dog for agility and I had very long conversations with her. She said if there was a problem she would take the dog back etc.

 

Well much to my disbelief elbow dysplasia was diagnosed at 9 months. The dog is a brilliant little dog and I forked out a stack of money for surgery. The dysplasia is fortunately mild but as everyone knows ED is not something that can be fixed. She has been completely sound for the last 7 months following surgery and runs and plays like a normal super well muscled athletic young dog.

 

I have started trialling and training her for obedience where she is shaping up to have a ton of potential even though I know nothing about obedience so it has been a steep learning curve!. She has her first title and is a pleasure to train.

 

I had a long talk to the breeder about the situation and I was very dissapointed about not doing agility with her. However the breeder was trying to do the right thing by doing all the tests although the elbow testing was quite new to her and she is the only breeder doing it where I live.

 

I did not expect her to pay towards the surgery. That was my decision as there was no way I was giving the dog back. I have the capacity to do what is needed to keep my dog fit, lean and pain free and she is an exceptional little dog and hopefully has a long pain free successful obedience trialing life ahead of her.

 

I believe if the breeder has done all the right things and you as a buyer is satisfied that this is so and you make the decision to take the pup, then it is up to you to either give the pup back to the breeder or be responsible for making the right decisions for that the pup for the rest of its life.

 

For some people it is simpler to start again with what they were looking for and for others it is not an option and plans sometimes have to change.

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What if people stopped breeding dogs? I'm no expert about genetics, but surely that would drastically reduce hip dysplasia in the dog population.

 

Not breeding would not reduce the percentage of CHD in the dog population; not breeding AND death would reduce CHD in the dog population if more dysplastic dogs than healthy dogs are removed from the population. :rolleyes:

 

Mark

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Not breeding would not reduce the percentage of CHD in the dog population; not breeding AND death would reduce CHD in the dog population if more dysplastic dogs than healthy dogs are removed from the population. :rolleyes:

 

Mark

 

I dont understand this comment really. My dysplastic dog is spayed so she is effectively removed from the breeding population so theoretically she is effectively dead in terms of breeding although she is still a statistic in the current population. If every dog with dysplasia was not bred from their incidence would be lessened over time

 

Unfortunately dysplasia sometimes doesnt show up in a dog till after it is old enough to breed, my orthovet told me that some breeding dogs kept in kennel situations and maybe just shown rather than worked may never show the clinical symptoms unless you were to look inside the joint when that dog had died, but will be passing along the genes.

 

Screening all breeding stock at 2 years old before breeding, together with feed back from clients about pups from the breeders litters, research into the former generations of the dogs used for breeding is all information that good breeders use to try and minimise the problem. I think most dysplasias are polygenic which makes it more difficult so a completely dysplasia free pup cant be guaranteed but the odds can be reduced. The breeder also needs a plan in place so their dogs are not indiscriminantly bred by others, which is more difficult to control.

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The breeder also needs a plan in place so their dogs are not indiscriminantly bred by others, which is more difficult to control.

 

I assume you're talking about puppies the breeder sells. Why is it the responsibility of the breeder to ensure that others are responsible? Where does a breeder's responsibility end and the new pup owner's responsibility start?

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Where does a breeder's responsibility end

 

When there are no problems.

 

and the new pup owner's responsibility start?

 

When there are no problems.

 

 

After reading some of the replies to these various threads - it's scary what people expect. However, educating the buyer and or some breeders isn't happening. To each their own and maybe people will start going into purchases with their eyes open, not glazed over due to puppy cuteness. You can't just ask about sire/dam - you have to also look at other relatives to get a clearer picture on the "whole" family tree (some of which should be called shrubs!)

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What if people stopped breeding dogs? I'm no expert about genetics, but surely that would drastically reduce hip dysplasia in the dog population.

Not breeding (no new litters at all) will not reduce the number of dogs in the breed that are dysplastic; nor will it reduce the percentage of the breed that is dysplastic. The status of the breed will be static (not changing) except for reductions in the breed due to death.

 

The proposed solution to reduce CHD in the breed will not work.

 

CHD can be detected by radiology (Ventrodorsal Radiographic Projection: OFA position) as early as 4 months; the specificity (reliability) of this test increases to a maximum at 2 years of age. Preliminary Evaluations

 

 

Breeders & Owners Share Responsibility for CHD

CHD is polygenic and it has been shown that environmental factors can influence the development of CHD. The latter portion of this statement clearly places some responsibility on owners for preventing the development of CHD.

Canine Hip Dysplasia as influenced by genetic and environmental factors

 

Mark

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And even though you may do EVERYTHING right when you breed...genetics can still be a crapshoot.That's why

statistics are used in genetics.

BTW, I feel we still need breeders...the ones that put their heart, soul, smarts and $$$ into breeding

the best to the best.

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And even though you may do EVERYTHING right when you breed...genetics can still be a crapshoot.
Without identifed genetic markers, how these markers influence the development of the disease, and a test for these markers a breeder cannot know if the sire and dam are carriers of the genes that lead to CHD; all we can go on is if the sire & dam (or their lines) are affected by CHD.

 

Mark

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CHD is polygenic and it has been shown that environmental factors can influence the development of CHD. The latter portion of this statement clearly places some responsibility on owners for preventing the development of CHD.

Canine Hip Dysplasia as influenced by genetic and environmental factors

 

Mark

 

Yes this is so but the problem has to be there to begin with.

 

A totally normal joint is unlikely to develop dysplasia, a potentially dysplastic joint can be influenced and although I followed all the rules - lean puppy, avoiding fast growing diets, careful exercise etc and I still ended up with dysplasia.

 

In some breeds Elbow dysplasia for example does not exist or is extremely rare no matter what you do to the dog as a pup.

 

I believe the main responsibility is with the breeder and I know some breeders pull the nutritional/exercise card as an excuse.

 

I know of a local breeder who does this as I know an increasing number of pups that come out of her large breeding program with dysplasia problems, she always blames the owners for incorrect nutrition and continues breeding the same dogs, refusing to acknowledge a problem.

 

I also know of a breeder who puts a huge amount of effort into researching her breeding program and her dogs are notoriously sound and many go to performance homes with no problems.

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This has been a very interesting and informative thread. I knew that it was important to keep dogs under 18 months from jumping, but did not realize the necessity of limiting other types of activity such as running and playing. Would these additional restrictions apply to a dog that is around one year in age? If so, what would you consider excessive running at this age?

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