Clicker training gone wrong?!

[Ace]

I have this issue, when I first got Rush she had a basic get down command, but it was overused by family and friends and I dont even know, so much happened. I guess she never really understood the behavior, which is my fault. I decided to teach her her agility commands and to jump in my arms which probably contributed to her thinking it was ok to jump on people (I am not sure). Anyway I decided to shape it and then add the command 'off'. After working on it for a week I finally got to the point where I could do ANYTHING jump, call her up (not using her specific jump up command) and she wouldnt jump up, so I added the command off. I practice daily with her not jumping up, I get my family in on it too.

 

There is one issue. My main reason for retraining was because she doesnt like to leave people alone, she really likes to claw at them for attention and eventually she will go away, but after some time. During spring break and the holidays my family was over, and Rush loves my grandma. So I had a clicker and cheese with me on the couch. It got to the point where Rush would climb up on my grandma, and I would say off (she would get off) then I would click, and she would come and get her treat. She is very food motivated, and so she would sit and just beg, I wouldnt reward her. I would reward her sometimes for completely ignoring my grandma. It got to the point however that she would do the behavior I didnt want her to do, just so I would say the word (or at least thats how it appeared). If I gave her a treat and ignored her begging, she would then go back to my grandma, and I would say 'off' and she would come back for more food, and when I realized what I was doing I stopped treating her (but still gave the command), then I though, is this right? Obviously not because she started to ignore me all together because she wanted lovin. I have had people over and shes done the same thing. I have come the point of just keeping her focus and not even letting her be around them because I think I am training her to do the behavior I dont want so I can say a command and she gets a treat, does that make sense?

 

Curse the smart dogs! - took me awhile to even figure it out ... oh dear.

 

Any advice would be good :x figured maybe its happened before to some of you guys?

 

Diane

[Kathy Chittenden]

Oh, they are so smart!

She learned the chain of behavior that gets her the treat!

My Disney did this (golden) in obedience class. He was very reactive so at first we did the "reward for looking at me" thing. He quickly learned that he could turn, snark, and turn back to me for the treat.

 

We had to use an aversive to stop this new behavior - one of those ultrasonic sound things - he learned to NOT snark with only two blasts. (note: we were at a distance from the other dogs in class so they did not hear the noise, only Disney)

 

I would say at this point you have to stop her from jumping before she even thinks about it as she thinks it is part of what gets her the cookie.

 

I'd put a drag line on her and catch her before she can get up to jump, use a noise as mentioned in other posts - "eh" or other interruptor - to prevent the jump up part of the chain.

 

It should extinguish before long if not a part of the behavior chain that earns the reward.

 

Good luck with that smart one!

 

Kathy

[Root Beer]

Since Rush wants to interact with people, I would use that to my advantage in this situation. People are always going to be a reality and trying to prevent Rush from interacting is probably going to be an exercise in futility for you, for Rush, and for the other people involved.

 

The first thing that I would do in a situation like this is decide on how Rush can appropriately interact with other people. If you don't want her to jump up, what do you want her to do? Sit to be petted? Lie on a mat to be petted? I gather you don't want people to ignore the dog altogether.

 

Once you decide on what you want, train that. So, if you want her to sit to be petted, work on it with just you and then get some people over to practice that.

 

I have come the point of just keeping her focus and not even letting her be around them because I think I am training her to do the behavior I dont want so I can say a command and she gets a treat, does that make sense?

 

Yes, based on what you are describing, I think you may have inadvertently trained her to do the opposite of what you want. So, if you are getting the opposite behavior for what you are rewarding, you are rewarding the wrong thing!!

 

To me this doesn't sound so much like "clicker training gone wrong" as that you've made a mistake in the criteria that you have set.

 

It sounds to me like your focus is more on what don't want Rush to do than with providing her with training to teach her to interact with guests appropriately.

[urge to herd]

My take is to teach Rush what you want her to do, pretty much as Kristine explained. And I'd start way, way back - no pawing anyone at all, at least for a good while. Reinforce for keeping paws on the floor. You may want to chain her approaching you and other people and sitting politely. Independantly of this, train her to go to a particular spot and lay down/stay there.

 

So, she approaches you, sits and waits just one second. Reinforce. Set her up again, maybe take a couple steps and call her to you, or if you use food, toss the treat behind her so she has to move to get it. Then she approaches you, cue the sit, etc.

 

Decide in advance what you want her default greeting to others to be and train that in. Get the 'go to your mat' cue solid and use that randomly when you have people visiting, so that you get her used to that.

 

 

Ruth

Border collie - the dog that does what you trained it to do, not what you think you trained it to do!

[Ooky]

To me this doesn't sound so much like "clicker training gone wrong" as that you've made a mistake in the criteria that you have set.

 

But that *is* clicker training gone wrong! I should know, I've done it many times! Diane, more than once I have realized Odin had done the same thing to me, especially with self rewarding stuff I didn't want him to do, like acting up to get my attention when I was talking to someone in CGC class, and then I would look and say sit and click and reward. He would bounce up more and more. I finally caught on that he was winning both ways - getting to do what I didn't want him to AND getting treated for it. My dog is TOO SMART for me.

 

The short term solution in one way is that if she knows off well enough to have figured that out, you are past the stage where she should get a treat every time. When they are learning the behavior, they get a treat every time. But once they know it, performance is actually much better if you give them rewards in such a way they can't fully predict, but also raising criteria to get polish or get them to hold the position longer (whatever for the given cue, just better). Like, just start rewarding when she does a really snappy execution of the behavior, giving you full focus, but not even every time then. But not a predictable pattern like every other time, you could reward her twice in a row and then not at all for 5 times. Eventually, you space it out farther to get to the point where the behavior is just on cue with no special reward needed (praise always nice though ) and no click. I've found follwing this framework does help prevent the living treat-dispenser syndrome!

 

But the deeper answer I agree is this:

 

It sounds to me like your focus is more on what don't want Rush to do than with providing her with training to teach her to interact with guests appropriately.

 

That is a challenge I also face in the general sense - guests we've got but the not bugging me when I pay attention to someone else for 5 minutes with him on leash next to me can still be an issue!

[Root Beer]

That is a challenge I also face in the general sense - guests we've got but the not bugging me when I pay attention to someone else for 5 minutes with him on leash next to me can still be an issue!

 

What do you want him to do when you are talking to someone else while he is on leash? Hang out and look around or sniff? Lie down?

 

It is a very common mistake - and I've made it to - to unintentionally build behavior chains that we don't want. I did this with Speedy when I was teaching him his mat work. He would throw a behavior at me, I would wait, he would settle, I would click and treat.

 

One day we were doing something totally unrelated and I said his mat cue. He proceeded to do the behaviors that he usually throws before settling down. It was very comical!!

 

So, the key was for me to go back and set the correct criteria. I had to click and treat BEFORE he started to offer any other behaviors. I broke it back down and within a very short period of time, he had the idea and we are now building some nice duration for relaxation on his mat.

[Ooky]

What do you want him to do when you are talking to someone else while he is on leash? Hang out and look around or sniff? Lie down?

 

 

See, part of the problem is I never really asked myself that question directly. I am a space case, and have sort of the opposite of ADD. When I concentrate or focus on something, that is where all my attention is. It is good for some things in life like school, but terrible for others like dog training. When I am speaking to someone, I really sort of am not mentally present with Odin at all - I'm aware he's there but I am not (and don't want to have to be) paying attention to what he's doing. I don't want to have to cajole him or police him. To give you background, right now he will: jump up to look at things if there are horizontal surfaces (a common ploy after about 2 minutes), interrupt me and the other person by getting up and making a big show of getting attention from them (usu. about 3 minutes) pull my arm suddenly to try and leave my side for something less boring like a another passerby or another dog (5 minutes, by then I'm losing my cool a bit because I can't fully pay attention to the other person and think about what they are saying). In between these incidents, after my commands, he is sitting calmly by my side, but as time goes on and I've reset the stay a few times, he wants to stand and pants as if stressed.

 

We are not even using C/T to address the problem now, because the reward has become the command "here, down, stay, settle" and with it, my attention. When I use mild aversives he seems to like that attention too. But to answer your question, here is what I want. I'm really willing to try a new plan to work up to it, and would also be very willing to reward the behavior I want! I don't understand how to reward him though because the "right" behavior involves him doing very difficult things while I'm not paying attention.

 

I want him to lay down by my feet and truly relax if I ask him to. If anything very interesting happens nearby, the most reaction I want would be for him to stand up, and if he stayed right near me he could sniff. If we were outside and one was in reach, he could chew a stick, but calmly and quietly. If he really would like to leave, to go do something else, I want him to check in with me by looking at me and awaiting a release. If I'm absorbed, I may not be available for checking in, and I'd still like him to wait at my side in that instance. Kristine, I admire your training advice greatly and would love to hear any suggestion you have.

 

As for any others reading, my trainer wants me to use corrections in this instance, so I'd also be very willing to hear any ideas involving that too.

[Ace]

THANK YOU, I am pretty sure I did train her what I didnt want to get the treat. I have been working on it the past few days without the command, my goal is to just have her sit when she has the urge to jump up on people. She does this cute head bobbing thingy if she really wants to jump up. I have brought a few friends over, and told them to use a toneless "oops" if she jumps up. Which seems to correct her behavior, I think I am back to shaping it, I havent used the word off at all! (I am proud of myself).

 

ok so my question, in the house, jumping up is simply not tolerated, by either dog. Bear is really tall so she doesnt have to jump to reach anything really. Would it be ok to click and reinforce her behavior when she is ignoring people completely? or is that pointless? She has no respect for other people's bubbles lol. I dont mind her saying hi to people, its the jumping up and constant pestering. She will claw at people too, and any touch is an 'ok' cue to her.