Alaska Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 I would sure look into this being hormone related, Or something having to do with blood chemistry. Pansmom, the link to the lab was in my post on page 2. Here's a direct link back to that post. From what you've written here, I fall in the camp of people who believe you and your husband can work through this. In my opinion, you've made a lot of good decisions so far, and rejected some poor options after researching and thinking them through. Take it one day at a time. The first baby is still at least nine months away, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 I was away for most of the day, unfortunately. I have just belatedly removed a particularly abusive post from JBlaylock, who will not be posting again for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 Hi PM, Thanks for reading and keeping an open mind and for trying so hard. Most owners are not nearly as tenacious as you are and the fact that you are smart and dedicated is the single best indicator that this situation will have a happy ending. Not to beat a dead horse, but researching the veterinary behaviorist route is still worthwhile. A veterinary behaviorist, being a veterinarian, should do the requisite bloodwork and a physical exam (ours did) as well as the behavioral evaluation. If you do some comparison shopping it is possible that it will end up being very cost effective compared to the cost of bloodwork alone. I can't recall where you are located but there's a directory here: http://dacvb.org/about-us/diplomates/diplomate-directory/ Alternatively, if there isn't a behaviorist near you, and you use a local vet to get the exam/bloodwork done, it would be worthwhile to ask that vet is s/he is willing to do a long-distance consult with a veterinary behaviorist, which may end up being quite economical. My dog's behaviorist does long-distance consults. If you like I can ask her what the costs might be and if she could help you out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman 101 Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 Hi PM, http://dacvb.org/about-us/diplomates/diplomate-directory/ ------------------------------------------------- I noticed that Dr Lore Haug is on this list. I know her from one of the web groups I belong to. She also writes articles in "The Chronicle of the Dog" and I've always enjoyed what she's written. I think she may do distance consults, but I'm not absolutely sure. Here is her link: http://www.texasvetbehavior.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pansmom Posted April 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 Makes me think that there might be a hormone imbalance that wasn't taken care of with the spaying. Just a thought. Opps...wasn't going to post but just thinking.... How do we check for hormone imbalances? That's what I'm thinking too. Is that in a Blood Chemistry Panel? I have an appointment for next Tuesday to do a Profile 7200 I believe (general chem panel, thyroid 5, and CBC differential) to send to Hemopet/Dr. Dodds. To the person who said they were glad we decided against the farm - we weren't going to do it without testing her every step of the way. She obviously isn't good under low supervision. We had the wisdom to check that out slowly and this we know now. I think what I've been doing with her has been REALLY helping, far more than we knew. Hopefully my husband can keep her in check until I get back. More later, everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoresDog Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 Pan's Mom, good for you for sticking with Pan. I don't have much to add other than fully agreeing with Melanie (SoloRiver) that a consult would be a good thing. I've taken a dog to a veterinary behaviorist, and it was very useful. Very best wishes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pansmom Posted April 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 I agree that jblaylock is giving some terrible advice but it seems to me very unlikely, from Pansmom's various posts, that she would take such advice (& jblaylock seems very, very young-- maybe too young to realize how very complex these situations can be) Pansmom, If a behavioral vet seems financially out of the question right now, have you considered talking with your regular vet about going straight to medication? Clomicalm or fluoxetine seems worth a try; both are inexpensive. You (& the dog) don't seem to have much to lose at this point. While it might be ideal to get an exact diagnosis first, medication is always a bit of a crap shoot & you only know for sure if it will work is by use. Just a thought. Sorry you're dealing with this & impressed with your patience & commitment. I have thought about Clomicalm. I researched it and out of everything it seemed to have the least potential for side effects versus everything else out there. At the moment, I'm just thrilled my husband has agreed to let me do the bloodwork. We would have to try the generic but yeah, that's the one I thought might be worth a shot. So if the bloodwork comes back inconclusive and my husband isn't totally frustrated by that point that's my next step. Unless I research the veterinary behaviorist and they end up cheap or almost as cheap as the Hemopet bloodwork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 Pansmom, I'm very glad that you're getting good results with your new routines and hope that it continues. I'll echo what others have said, you're going above and beyond what many, even most, dog owners would do. Your dedication speaks volumes. I can tell you that we use a clomiprimine, which is generic for Clomicalm. It's made a big difference for Shoshone, and the generic version here is a whopping $50 for about a 6 month suppy. I did get it from my regular vet, and we saw dramatic results about 6 weeks into it. Best of luck, and please keep us posted. Ruth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 My dog is on medication. He is on fluoxetine and amitryptyline, low doses of both to minimize side effects. He has been on the medications since 2000 and has had no side effects of any kind (he will be 10 in May). Both medications are on the low-price lists of many pharmacies (Wal-Mart, Kroger/Fred Meyer, etc.). I just picked up a two month supply of the amitryptyline for my dog for $8 and the costs for the fluoxetine are similar. I have probably spent a total of $300 not including medication on veterinary behavioral costs related to my dog throughout his lifetime. It's not a negligible amount of money, but in the grand scheme of things it wasn't much and it was so worth it. Any vet will do the same bloodwork that Hemopet will do. My understanding is that Jean Dodds just uses a different standard to compare the results to. Unless Pan is also lethargic, warmth-seeking, etc. I highly doubt she is hypothyroid, and if she is, routine bloodwork would reveal this. (I realize there are folks out there who disagree with this. You have probably discovered as much in your research.) I am not telling you not to do bloodwork, but given a choice between bloodwork only, and a veterinary behavioral consult that will include bloodwork, you will get much more bang for your buck with the latter. A vet behaviorist will also give you practical training, management, and behavior modification regimens that will help you best and most easily manage and work with your dog to make her better and to make both of your lives much easier. If you have access to a university library (you mentioned that your husband is in grad school, I think) you may be able to check out a copy of Karen Overall's Clinical Behavioral Medicine for Small Animals or get it through interlibrary loan. It is invaluable for understanding behavioral issues and includes behavior modification protocols. I am not saying it is a substitute for actually consulting a professional, but it is a very useful adjunct if you don't mind technical discussion -- it is aimed at veterinarians and animal behavior professionals. Dr. Overall is my dog's behaviorist and her methods were exceedingly effective for us. When I first adopted Solo I could not imagine having a boyfriend, much less getting married and thinking about having a family. He was that messed up. Solo is a well-integrated part of our family now who has made two big moves with me (from Philadelphia to San Francisco, and from SF to Oregon), lived in the middle of two big cities without getting into trouble (and I didn't have a yard when I lived there either), worked sheep, competed in agility, and even earned a Canine Good Citizen certificate. Solo is not perfect -- I don't make him entertain when we have guests, and he will be carefully supervised aroud children (but I think all dogs should be anyway). But he has improved to the point that he is unremarkable at least 90% of the time. We live a full, happy life together. I am not guaranteeing that kind of success with Pan, but I wanted you to know that it can work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pansmom Posted April 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 As is probably apparent, although still on my trip I have had a few moments tonight to read all these posts and am responding to them. I don't consider my dogs to be my children, and I don't consider dogs and children to be equivalent entities. But the point is that since having dogs is not equivalent to having children, and that most people would agree that it is easier to have a dog than to have kids, making the argument that it is "too hard" to deal with a dog like this is not very compelling, if you are planning to have children. A valid argument would be, "I do not value my dog the same way that I would value a child." That is an entirely different argument from "we can't handle it" or "we have too much on our plates right now." Yes, it is true that I do not value a dog in the same way as I would value a child. Even though I am a semi-vegetarian (once a vegan) for moral reasons. But there is no need for anyone to question our decision for having children. Rest assured, we will have no disagreement regarding whether we should put our future children to sleep. (Not funny, I know people. It's not the disruption to the household, but the danger of bodily harm and our differing opinions on the most rational course of action that is at issue. It's the idea: should we continue like this indefinitely when it might mean sacrificing children altogether and altering our life plans: no it shouldn't. And also everyone note: we've spent over $2500 on the dog and vet bills and trainers in the past year. So it's not that we didn't have the money for her in the beginning. It's that we have already spent it! And my husband went back to school...) Happily, my husband now seems on board for the bloodwork at this point and is working with her nightly, walks and short training sessions. Tomorrow and through the time I return, she will spend most of the day with him as he is off work for the rest of the week. I will look into the veterinary behaviorist option before I take her to the appointment on Tuesday. Either way, we have that appointment, and we will be sending it off somewhere for analysis. If the behaviorist / anal option isn't TOO much I might be able to swing that. Edited a few moments after posting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 Pansmom, I am really glad you're still here! It was quite a discussion while you were gone. ANYWAY. We are using clomiprimine for our foster dog. She's between 5-7 I think, probably neglected and alone for far too long. She developed (or it's the reason she was dumped) SA and is anxious in small spaces. Her general anxiety level has dropped significantly in the last week or so. Good on ya for sticking it out, at least a little longer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theshine Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 Pansmom, I've stayed out of this because I have no experience with aggression in dogs, but I wanted to say I'm glad to hear that you're going to do the blood work. I hope you get some answers soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 and a veterinary behavioral consult that will include bloodwork, you will get much more bang for your buck with the latter. Seems to be the best deal. 2 bangs for you buck!! As far as testing for a hormone imbalance, I'm not really sure how you'd go about it, but I would think that the behaviorest/bloodwork person would. I would also think it could be helped with some of the drugs already referenced. Thanks for hanging in there. I can tell by your recent posts that you are feeling re-engerized, just remember this when the kids are driving you nuts, we all need a short break sometimes. Even if it's only for a day! I also notice that your Dh is really stepping up. Aren't you glad he got that chance to rebond with Pan a bit! It shows just a wee bit of what a good dad he'a gonna be. If he's stepping up for Pan like he is, imagine what he will do for your kids! Good luck and keep up the great work. I don't know if you've had the chance to read much on these boards but there is something called board mojo going on here, and from the looks of it, you're getting tons! That's a good thing, it seems to be albe to move mountains! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pansmom Posted April 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 Hey, has anyone ever had a female dog who needed to be put on progesterone therapy after being spayed for aggression issues? Last night I read this book for veterinary professionals on googlebooks and there is some kind of test that can be done to test hormone levels, but it's not one of the ones Dr. Dodds offers that I can tell. I'm going to talk to my vet about it. Apparently before the dog goes into estrus, she has really high estrogen levels that outweigh the progesterone. According to the book, estrogen causes anxiety and may cause aggression. (It was at this point, just before she went into heat, that Pan first bit, out of nowhere, over a rawhide. She was really horrible the week before she got her period. Honestly, we were laughing about it after the fact because it totally went away and we said she must have had PMS.) Anyway, according to the book, then, when the dog goes into heat, her progesterone levels go up (and during which time she did not bite and was very sweet and let me change her doggie diapers daily--we wouldn't have dreamed of her being ugly to us at that time). Also, apparently, progesterone will stay in a dog's system for some time, but after it is gone once they are spayed (which we had done as soon as possible after the heat) it can go away completely because the dog cannot make it any longer since her ovaries have been removed. AND SO, what you get is a dog with none of the desire for intimacy of progesterone and all of the anxiety of estrogen, which for an already nervous dog like Pan maybe could wreak havoc as they reach social maturity and realize they can aggress against their fears. So it's possible between the two rawhide aggression incidents (which occurred before she went into heat) and the next biting incident (two months later) she lost all the calming effect of her progesterone and now she has none of it and that is why she keeps deteriorating (yes she hasn't been biting thank god, but she is growling a lot, and doesn't like to be pet anymore). Anyway, obviously I'm no veterinarian, but due to the time frame of all this, I seriously think it may be hormonal so if anyone knows what tests to ask my vet to take, other than the CBC differential, chemistry panel, and thyroid, I'd appreciate it. Also I'd appreciate hearing from anyone actually has done the progestin therapy thing. Apparently there are side effects, so normally it seems like people do the antidepressants instead, but I'm wondering, we do hormone therapy for women who have ovariohysterectomies and women who go through menopause, and yes, they're grouchy too. Would antidepressants work on them as well as the missing hormones? Don't worry, I'm going to my vet with this, but I just wanted to hear if anyone had ever heard of this / experienced it before. There was this section on hormone therapy and aggression in the book and this long explanation of the reasons why spaying sometimes makes aggression worse, and it was the first explanation I've read that I was like, wow, oh my god, that could really be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 yes she hasn't been biting thank god, but she is growling a lot, and doesn't like to be pet anymore Now this has be wondering. Is she feeling like she's winning these little confrontations? Not that I'd be challanging her at this point but it sounds like she's getting better in some areas and not in others. Just a thought, Mick and Dew are very talky. Dew sounds darling, Mick OTOH sounds like he's growling and not nicely. Even if I reach over him to love on him, he'll grumble at me. I understand he's talking but to someone else, they'd be thinking I was a nut sticking my face in a growly dogs face. He even confuses the other dogs, he'll run up to one (his pack mates) and growl at them from behind. Most of the time they'll duck like he's gonna grump them, and he's looking like, what's the deal, I only wanted to play. So his deep voice has most people, even dogs confused. Not that I don't think Pan's isn't really growling, but is it more voicing her opinion than a true warning growl. If she gets the answer she's looking for then she keeps it up. Dew is an absolute Bitch before she cycles, we know when it's going to happen becuase of it, but I never really thought very deeply about why, no one questions me when I become a bitch, thought is was the same for her. Just thinking out loud, keep up the great work, you're getting somewhere! OMT...the petting. Again, it's Mick, but he is not into petting at all. He'll solicte a few pets or come up if he needs some reassurance like in a storm or some other stressfull situation but he would rather work stock than be petted. Heck he's just not a loving dog at all. I sorta figured it was due to his illness when he was young. He had a terrible bout with TBD's, it became chronic. Right before the diag. he lost the ability to use his hind leggs. Did he mature into a dog that feels pets are going to hurt? We'll never know but I pet him anyway. I liken it to a person with a hangover that really hurts, don't touch me, I got a headache, or the idea that he was running a fever and his skin hurt to be touched. Either way, he's well now and still doesn't like to be touched very much. Unless you're a stranger that I'd rather have him not be friendly to, then for some dumb reason he's all over them. That's my boy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilovebordercollies Posted April 18, 2009 Report Share Posted April 18, 2009 You Need The Dog Whisperer! He's good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErinKate Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 I second the Dog Whisperer. (I know some of ya'll cringe hearing that!) Honestly though, I would love to see if you are helping or creating more issues. Always easier to look in than out right? I give you kudos for sticking her out. Your husband too. I haven't read all the recent posts, but it sounds like you guys are working pretty hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 I second the Dog Whisperer. (I know some of ya'll cringe hearing that!)Honestly though, I would love to see if you are helping or creating more issues. Always easier to look in than out right? I give you kudos for sticking her out. Your husband too. I haven't read all the recent posts, but it sounds like you guys are working pretty hard. Have you read the whole thread? Right about the middle there a whole bunch of CM style suggestions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalesred Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 Pansmom I am so glad you have stayed with us. Your tenacity and dedication to your dog is really impressive. I have no advice to offer as I have no experience of what you describe, but I have read this thread in its entirety, though, and at times I began to despair when the discussion descended into point scoring and flaming. I was most relieved when I saw you were still contributing. My heart goes out to you in this truly awful situation, and I hope that the answers become clear soon. Elizabeth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErinKate Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 Have you read the whole thread? Right about the middle there a whole bunch of CM style suggestions Ummm, obviously not if you say that. 11pages of posts? Not hardly. But I would like to see people in action. Not to lay blame of course, but just to see how diff. people react truely. A lot of times we say "oh I did this when she growled at me", but it isn't always the truth. Not to say Pansmom is fibbing, but what you think you do sometimes is diff. from what you actually portray to your pet. That's all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 A lot of times we say "oh I did this when she growled at me", but it isn't always the truth. Not to say Pansmom is fibbing, but what you think you do sometimes is diff. from what you actually portray to your pet. That's all. Well of course on the Internet, we can't say for 100% certain if Pansmom even has a dog, much less how she and her husband interact with it. But what she has described throughout this very long thread does not sound like anything that will be fixed through simple "exercise, discipline, affection -- in that order." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcburniefarm Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 To fellow newbies and those who shall remain nameless: I'm of the dumb newbie opinion that if you can't improve on the advice given, stay out of it. I'm quickly learning I am waaaay out of my league here among the BC members. In the best way I mean that. I am learning so much, and every now and then post my ignorance for all to read. "insert Abe Lincoln quote here" But if you have not read the WHOLE thread and digested it then likely this is one to leave to those with far greater experience. Poor Pansmon has a lot on her plate and I wish her the best and do want to know how things develop for Pan. Any one of us could be in this boat, BC owners or awesome mutt owners. Thank you Pansmom for sharing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErinKate Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 that if you can't improve on the advice given, stay out of it.... But if you have not read the WHOLE thread and digested it then likely this is one to leave to those with far greater experience. Poor Pansmon has a lot on her plate and I wish her the best and do want to know how things develop for Pan. Any one of us could be in this boat, BC owners or awesome mutt owners. Thank you Pansmom for sharing. ummmm, huh? Excuse me for not having time to sit and read through 12pages of posts! I do not need to read through 12 pages to tell anyone that sticking to it is wonderful. Nor do I need to read 1 page to say I would like to be a fly on the wall sometimes! If you were referring to me, I never for one second downed Pansmom or her husband for the path they are taking. So in short, read your own advice dear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcburniefarm Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 To quote partially and out of context is questionable. I felt my point was self depreciative enough to not offend but to advise fellow newbies. As shown, this can be a rough place. With new young owners out there all would do well to remember that written words cannot be taken back and can do harm. If a goal is to close ranks, so be it. Pardon me for intruding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 If a goal is to close ranks, so be it. Pardon me for intruding. Watch you talking bout mc? I think what you wrote was sage advise. you've been able to add to lots of discussions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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