Journey Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 OK, in the past few days there have been a couple of posts from people that bought their puppy from a pet store. If you bought a Border Collie from a pet store would you mind posting the papers here. Who is the breeder, the sire the dam, what registry are they registered with, what state you purchased the dog in, how old was the puppy when purchased and what issues have you had so far? This will be helpful imo when others go in search of a puppy. The deed is done, you love your puppy, but maybe we can help and stop others from purchasing from a pet store. Thanks! Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afrancis Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 I think those who purchase a puppy from a pet store aren't motivated to ask about papers, breeder, sir, dam or origin. The only question might be, "Do I get a guarantee?" and "What's his/her name?" But you have made your point just by asking. I think asking about issues so far will only act to expose the owners' level of experience with pets -- i.e. novice -- and therefore act only to shame them. Honestly, I think there are a lot of really good, honourable, well-meaning people who buy a pet from a pet store, even today. Understanding the perils of this kind of commerce is something that you learn as you become more socially and pet aware. I don't even know what drove my mother and sister to go to the pound many years ago and adopt "Kipling" (showing a sense of responsibility -- hopefully this was passed on to me) but having zero experience with dogs, zero intention of training, and zero preparation (showing a certain level of cluelessness...hopefully I learned from their mistake) Of course this forum is a really good place to start, but unfortunately not everyone does research before they act (I have been known to be guilty of this ). The more new pet owners we can educate once they do come here about the pet production industry, the better. JMO. Ailsa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBlaylock Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 I haven't bought from breeder or pet store. I adopted Tink and Layla, both mutts, from a shelter. Bindy, I found on the street, she was very very sick and had been put out on the street by a lazy owner who didn't want to pay to fix ringworms, pinworms, tapeworms, and demodectic mange (which she had all four of)....so we fixed her, and now she's the sweetest dog in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 My hat is off to all who adopt or rescue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted April 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 I think those who purchase a puppy from a pet store aren't motivated to ask about papers, breeder, sir, dam or origin. The only question might be, "Do I get a guarantee?" and "What's his/her name?" But you have made your point just by asking. I think asking about issues so far will only act to expose the owners' level of experience with pets -- i.e. novice -- and therefore act only to shame them. Hmm, no the only thing I wish to "shame" is you for assuming this to begin with. My intent was to bring to the forefront the issues with the dogs from pet stores, name the "breeders" and their dogs that are selling to pet stores to begin with. My comment "the deed is done, you love your dog" was sincere. With all the talk lately on the boards about "ACK" and "pet stores" my thoughts were to dig deeper (breeder etc..) and "see" who these wretched breeders are! "I" want to know who is selling to pet stores.....oh nevermind.....asking for truths I see is asking for too much. Bringing these issues out in writing could help others but hey why bother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 That's too bad because I think you had a very good idea in starting this topic, Karen. There are folks here who have replied to topics concerning Swafford, for instance, explaining their experiences and problems encountered, and so have been able to "warn" others of the real risks associated with getting a pup from that particular source. A reasonable topic on purchasing at pet stores could serve the same service of warning people and alerting them to issues of health and other matters that are relevent to pet shop puppy purchases. If we can't communicate with each other in an attempt to education and share information, then the lessons that folks have learned will be of no benefit to others. Perhaps requesting PMs or emails, and your distilling the information from these more "private" communications, might be something that people who are reluctant might respond to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afrancis Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Hmm, no the only thing I wish to "shame" is you for assuming this to begin with. My intent was to bring to the forefront the issues with the dogs from pet stores, name the "breeders" and their dogs that are selling to pet stores to begin with. My comment "the deed is done, you love your dog" was sincere. With all the talk lately on the boards about "ACK" and "pet stores" my thoughts were to dig deeper (breeder etc..) and "see" who these wretched breeders are! "I" want to know who is selling to pet stores.....oh nevermind.....asking for truths I see is asking for too much. Bringing these issues out in writing could help others but hey why bother. Apologies. Let me re-phrase. I think asking about issues so far will only act to expose the owners' level of experience with pets -- i.e. novice -- and therefore act only to shame them. What I meant to say was that they would likely feel ashamed if they realized they had made a mistake in buying from a pet store and, as a result, would be reluctant to share any resulting health/behavioural etc. problems. I believe there is little intention here to shame anyone and I'm sorry if you felt I was shutting your idea down. I didn't mean to do that, only wondered how to approach it effectively so that (i) people would answer, and (ii) people would consider the bigger question and start asking pet stores where their puppies came from. Obviously I think it is a good idea to have discussion, esp around subjects that are hot-button issues. But I think noobies are also quick to feel guilty or self-conscious; look at the threads of "I got a border collie and now aren't sure whether I can give it what it needs/I need to re-home it" and especially in the context of a forum with so many highly experienced and informed dog owners. I think asking is a good idea; but I wonder if most of the answers will be from people whose childhood dog came from a pet store rather than their present-day dog. Then again, I hope lots answer and I'm proved wrong Ailsa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martySQ Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 When I read the OP post, I thought OMG another can of worms. If I had been a new puppy owner, came here, posted with glee and was immediatly shot at with... Oh, buying from a pet store is the most awful thing in the world you could ever do... I would never ever admit on this board to these people that is where I had gotten my pup from, because to be honest, there are many folks who are experts on here, but aren't that expert on how people will receive their information. I frankly would be very hesitant to answer an apperntly loaded question after reading some of the heated discussions, and would be afraid I'd be causing a lot of trouble for the pet store people who had been so nice to me, etc. (Not that it is my point of view regarding pet store people, but I did buy a min pin for my mom from a pet store once before I knew better.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Well, I went to go for a different approach -- and was going to go right to the source -- the biggest supplier of puppies to the puppy stores -- to ask them who their "breeders" are -- and was (NOT) shocked to find out that there is NO contact information on the website. The Hunte Corporation Perhaps I will see if I can find contact info for them, tell them I am interested in supplying puppies, and find out what their agreement is with breeders, etc. And there's jobs available! Take a look at the "job opportunities" on that site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 I did some searching and found this article, it's one perspective as to where pet stores get their puppies from: http://www.canismajor.com/dog/petstor.html We have a neighbor that has a small kennel, he raises a few different breeds including having a breeding pair of border collies. Wayne spoke to him last fall, he mentioned that he was not breeding his pair at this time, he said that he was having a difficult time selling the pups. He does not sell to the general public, you never know where is pup are ending up. His place is clean the pups are socialized but the matings were just done to produce pets for the pet market. I don't know who he registers with. If you do a search for an specific state you can usually find a "Pet Association" in many cases it is an association set up for breeders in that state, some advertise to the public, many don't, my guess is that many of them are sourcing the pet stores. Every now and then we see a car load with a trailer packed full of crates and cages heading down I-35 toward Missouri, I'm guessing that it is either a buncher or breeder in route to the Missouri pet auctions. I thought this was interesting reading too: http://www.canismajor.com/dog/puppymil.html Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Perhaps I will see if I can find contact info for them, tell them I am interested in supplying puppies, and find out what their agreement is with breeders, etc. I'm guessing that you will need to supply them with your USDA License number and even a referal before they would release any contracts. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted April 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Apologies. Let me re-phrase. only wondered how to approach it effectively so that (i) people would answer, and (ii) people would consider the bigger question and start asking pet stores where their puppies came from. OK. However, are you telling me that a "direct" approach, a straight forward question is ineffective. Heaven help us.....I am so sorry, sarcasm intended....BYLPPH From my dealing with PSP they are given the "paperwork" when they buy the pup...so, the owner should have it or have it sent within a reasonable amount of time. When I read the OP post, I thought OMG another can of worms. If I had been a new puppy owner, came here, posted with glee and was immediatly shot at with... And your point is? If that was my intent I would have done that on the original 3 threads related to PSP. I fail to see how a direct simple question is loaded. My reasons were listed in the OP if people were honest and stopped "reading between the lines" but your entire post was negative...sorry you are having a bad day. Sue, you're right. I think sometimes that the conversations here regarding MAH and Swafford saved a few people a lot of grief. I thought maybe "outing" these other breeders we could attempt to do the same for others. Unfortunately it appears not. Karen eta - the ABCA is listed on Huntes' site under registry and resource....blech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Nice try, Karen. I thought it was a good idea to open up some discussion on the "breeders" that sell to brokers who supply pet stores. I didn't find it a loaded question nor offensive. *shrugs* I always wondered about paperwork that is or should be given with pet store puppies, and does it give breeder and parent information? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 From my dealing with PSP they are given the "paperwork" when they buy the pup...so, the owner should have it or have it sent within a reasonable amount of time. I just stumbled upon this page with reviews of Hunte: http://www.merchantcircle.com/business/The...597/review/list There were a couple reviews from people that claimed that they asked if their pups were locally raised and told yes, when their paperwork came to them later they found out that they were from Hunte. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 This not going to be a politically correct response. Imagine that. I don't think the question is loaded. And even if it was ... so what. Being nicey nice and more nice doesn't solve a damn thing. Some people deserved to be smacked upside the head every now and again. There's a whole list of people on a Yahoo group for a breeder out of Oklahoma that sells litter after litter of puppies for an exhoribant about of money, the list is completely moderated so nothing negative gets through, and no one happens to notice that buyers buy puppies, are very happy with their pups, and then slowly disappear off the list. If you contact these people later, you find out that their either got into it with the breeder and the breeder didn't stand by the contract or some such thing, or (and I love this) they said they finally stopped drinking the Kool-Aid. I have no sympathy for these people. What possesses someone to go online, look at a pup from a website where there's 20-some breeding dogs listed, several litters at a time, find out that it will cost them no less than a small fortune, and think to themselves, "Now THAT's what I'm talkin' 'bout. That's a great breeder!" and log on to PayPal and send off a good chunk of their life savings. They didn't do their research. They didn't network. Nada. Impulse buyers. Similar to the ones you find shopping at pet stores. Hello???????? Where do people think those puppies are coming from??? I once bought a pup from a backyard breeder and had it shipped to me. I wish someone like me was around to smack me upside the head before I did that. It was not a good purchase. I deserved to be thunked. Turns our I got thunked in the pocket with vet bills from severe dysplasia. Did people grow up in a bubble? Why all of a sudden are there such sensitive people out there? What is wrong with society that a little blunt honesty is found so horribly offensive and taken so personally? Honestly, it's ridiculous, and I can see why many people avoid saying anything at all. Which is NOT solving the problem. IF YOU DON'T BUY FROM PET STORES, THERE WILL BE NO MARKET FOR BROKERS OR PET STORES. How hard is this? I am also sick of hearing from the people that say, "Oh I felt so badly for the poor little puppy in the store, so I 'rescued' it from that horrible situation." You didn't rescue crap. You gave the pet store money for a puppy -- and no matter how much it was, it was, no doubt, more than the pet store paid the Hunte Corporation for it in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 ...sorry you are having a bad day. I don't see a bad day, I see an opinion that's just different from yours, that's all. I agree with the poster that many people, on this board or any other board, may be intimidated by the experts and not want to publicly admit they did something you experts think is bad. I've moderated a board for 8 years and the PMs from scared members come all the time. They want to ask what they perceive to be a dumb question and are afraid of the experts slamming them for it. Some people are sensitive that way. You, being an abviously direct person, may not fully get that, but some people will not admit they got a dog from a pet store, it's just the way it is. My parents bought a puppy from a pet store years ago, and when I explained why they should not have, they felt silly and ambarrassed. I know they would certainly not have stepped forward here. But then, some others will. So in the end, it's a great topic, but you can't get mad at someone for pointing out possible holes in the great topic. anyway, I'm new here, not trying to make enemies, just add my views to a good topic. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack & Co. Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Nice try, Karen. I thought it was a good idea to open up some discussion on the "breeders" that sell to brokers who supply pet stores. I didn't find it a loaded question nor offensive. *shrugs* I always wondered about paperwork that is or should be given with pet store puppies, and does it give breeder and parent information? I agree with Paula. I didn't find it "stirring the pot" at all. I thought it was a good way to have a "clearinghouse" of information that folks with puppy fever could review before they fall in love at the pet store. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soda-pop Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 I got Soda Pop from the shelter (where I work and that's why I was able to get the papers, etc), but her original owners got her @ a pet store. She's ABCA registered. I actually got a hold of the lady who bred her sire and let her know her dog was in a puppy mill, suffering to death. She denied all knowledge and said "I don't sell to puppy mills!" --the whole conversation was sad and naive-- and I believe "Kerry Trotter" is supposed to be "Kerry Trottier". I also had a puppy mill report run. Around the time Soda was born he had 40 adult dogs and around 50 puppies. Soda's a good dog but obvy she ended up in a shelter. She has some back end issues, either CHD or knee, I'm not sure. I haven't done x-rays. She's also not a real great sheep dog. OH, also, at the trainer I take lessons at a lady has her 1/2 brother by the same sire out of the same puppy mill. She rescued him as well. ETA, again: I didn't read the whole thread, but here's a pet store puppy's paper work. Also, I know LOTS of folks who bought a puppy at a pet store knowing where those pups came from. Sire: Joe Owner: Tom Baumgardner Breeder: Abby/Rinda OPP Dam: Gyp Owner: Thomas J. Baumgartner Breeder: Kerry Trotter Grandparents: (Sire side) Nippers O: Allen Will B: Dennis/Denise Dockter Opp's Lady O: Abby Rinda OPP B: Dennis/Denise Dockter Dam's side Tuck O:Kerry Trotter B: Dale and Dawn Montgomery Belle O:Kerry Trotter B: Marv Brown Great Grand Parents Sire's side: Winchester Dennis/Dennise Dockter Lady Tim Dockter Family Jake Jim/Joanne Brokaw Megan Wisp: Jim/Joanne Brokaw Dam's side: Huck Dale/Dawn Montgomery Katie Terry G. Knodel Imp. Sweep Larry Billmayer Imp. Nell Marv Brown Great Great Grandparents: Sire: @@Imp. Craig Charlie & Pat Errington @@Fath Charlie & Pat Errington Jake Dennis and Denise Dockter Bell Dennis/Denise Dockter Boots L. Morrison Schlosser-Lady S Dennis Denise Dockter Max Dennis Denise Dockter Lady Tim Dockter Family Dam's Side Shep Mrs Lee Kruger Imp. Tweed Mrs. Lee Kruger Jeff Elvin Kopp Bliss Elvin Kopp Craig F. Worrell (ENGLAND!) Bett F. Worrell Craig CB Lawrie (SCOTLAND!) Meg CB Lawrie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 So, let me be the first to say that I have not bought from a pet store (although, in ignorant younger days, I certainly might have thought that that was the "responsible" place to get a "quality" puppy - and I'm sure many do get pups there thinking they are doing the right thing). But, I have a friend who bought a little Poodle (Toy or Miniature, I'm not remembering which) for a gift for her daughter, who wanted one badly. That dog was a mess of health issues from the very start - worms and all the attending problems accompanying a pup with a bad worm burden (like anemia, digestive issues all her life from damaged intestines), and other health problems. She was fortunate to be purchased by a family that gave her quality health care, a loving and forever home, and a good life - at very great expense. When they found out how ill she was, how could they tell their young daughter that her beloved pup might as well be put down because of expense or unsurety of outcome? How many pet store pups are similarly afflicted? I've made mistakes of my own in getting dogs/pups over the years. I've been taken to task for some of the things I've done in ignorance or without thinking or improving the home I supplied to these animals. While it's hurt, the criticism has been helpful, honest, and educational - and led me to be a much better person and a much better dog owner. But it wasn't easy not getting defensive, or getting in a huff and going elsewhere where my bruised feelings might have been soothed, or learning a lesson and trying to do better by my decisions and my dogs. It would be nice to be able to have a real, honest, non-flaming, educational dialogue about several issues that are of interest with regards to breeding practices, puppy marketing/sales, drawing attention to times that ABCA may be touted (as noted above) by irresponsible breeders/marketers, and so forth. Since feelings run so high, that might be hard to accomplish, but worthwhile if it could be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted April 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 ^^^^^^ OMG, THANK YOU ^^^^^^ This is what I was asking about. We can't stop the millers if we don't "know" WHO they are!! Soda, what kind of chocolate do you like Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OurBoys Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 What possesses someone to go online, look at a pup from a website where there's 20-some breeding dogs listed, several litters at a time, find out that it will cost them no less than a small fortune, and think to themselves, "Now THAT's what I'm talkin' 'bout. That's a great breeder!" and log on to PayPal and send off a good chunk of their life savings. I use to work with this idiot coworker whose mentality was the more money you paid for something, the better the quality. Nothing I said could convince her otherwise. I'm just glad the ex-coworker wasn't into dogs. Unfortunately, if she thought it would be a step up the social ladder, she would probably get one of the 'in' breeds at the time. I think a thread like this could educate the ones who are open to be educated but how do (general) you (or is it even possible) to educate people like my ex-coworker??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 ^^^^^^ OMG, THANK YOU ^^^^^^ This is what I was asking about. We can't stop the millers if we don't "know" WHO they are!! Soda, what kind of chocolate do you like I sincerely doubt that several people (on the dam's side at least) are puppy millers or had any intentions of pups they produced winding up in such a situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack & Co. Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 It would be nice to be able to have a real, honest, non-flaming, educational dialogue about several issues that are of interest with regards to breeding practices, puppy marketing/sales, drawing attention to times that ABCA may be touted (as noted above) by irresponsible breeders/marketers, and so forth. Since feelings run so high, that might be hard to accomplish, but worthwhile if it could be. You are right, Sue, and I think this is what Karen has in mind. I don't know why everyone is getting so twitchy and defensive about it. I see that Soda-Pop has posted what Karen is looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 I use to work with this idiot coworker whose mentality was the more money you paid for something, the better the quality. Nothing I said could convince her otherwise. I'm just glad the ex-coworker wasn't into dogs. Unfortunately, if she thought it would be a step up the social ladder, she would probably get one of the 'in' breeds at the time. I think a thread like this could educate the ones who are open to be educated but how do (general) you (or is it even possible) to educate people like my ex-coworker??? That reminds me of a woman (with much more money than she knows what to do with) who purchased two kittens at $2500 each because they were the newest and the latest "rare" fashion cat breed. Folks like the AKC breeder mentioned in a recent thread who sells pups for $2500 co-owned (as successful as they may or may not be in the show/performance/pet world) is also the type of person that some people would love to buy from because pups that expensive must be the very best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soda-pop Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 I sincerely doubt that several people (on the dam's side at least) are puppy millers or had any intentions of pups they produced winding up in such a situation. The lady who bred Soda's sire had no intentions of her dog ending up in a puppy mill. No intention. She was a BYBr who allowed her dogs to be sold at horse barn sales, not thinking about the possible consequences. I'm sure none of those folks thought their dogs would contribute to a puppy mill but they did. What is the biggest shame to me is that the ABCA continues (maybe they stopped) to allow Thomas Baumgartner to register puppies. Shouldn't someone registering 100 puppies a year raise a red flag? ETA: It's easy for me to post the info because I have no embarrassment about it because I didn't actually purchase her. We all live and learn. Before I came here, I would have happily bought a border collie from conformation parents because that's what I thought you just do. I know better now. We all live and learn from our mistakes and hopefully we can help educate some folks along the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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