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donna frankland (uk)

ot. i dont know how to write this

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I am way less scared of you than I was. I can't help but worry about your salvation, but that is a choice that can only be between you and your God.

 

Nancy, I am with you, I try to be a witness by my actions rather than words, though I have been a lot more forward here than I would ever be in real life. Not that you all aren't real, it is just a little different than face to face.

 

Olivia, there are probably a lot of Christians you should be scared of, there are some really misguided Christians who have a lot of power. I am relieved to know you are not all "satan worshippers", should have known better but I am pretty ignorant of these things.

 

The only reason I am worried about your salvation is because I believe that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus. Worshipping what God has made will not do the trick. But if you feel satisfied in your present life, I have no right to judge you and how would I know what's in the afterlife???

 

The sin/punishment thing as it relates to AIDS and New Orleans, etc. etc. makes me sick. I do not believe that at all.

 

Taking care of the world that God made and all the creatures he put in it is a part of my religion. Not necessarily part of the church I go to, but part of what I believe God calls us to. As well as take care of our bodies, blah blah blah.

 

What I want for all of you is to take care of yourselves, surround yourselves with love and support, and find your purpose and work your whole life to fulfill it.

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Tammy - And I think that's the important part. You can worry for my salvation, you can even pray for me if you want, it doesn't really affect me and it certainly doesn't hurt me. I personally do not believe in hell, so I'm not exactly worried about ending up there. :rolleyes:

 

If you have the inclination and time, I encourage you to read up on Wicca and other religions. I find it fascinating, and you might too. I think a lot of fear in this world - and I don't mean just religion-related - is founded by a lack of knowledge. As humans we are afraid of what we don't know. That's why I like to research everything as much as I can, whether it's dog behavior, or medical problems, or some weird phenomenon. I've found that knowing makes things a lot easier to deal with.

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Back in the 1970s, I was in a bible study group at my church. We scared the begeezus out of our (Episcopal) priest when we all agreed that, while Jesus was our only route to salvation, that was true for only us. That others might have other routes. That we were not about to limit God.

 

If I believe (as I think I do) that there is one true diety, I can't see any way of addressing that deity as wrong. If I choose to address it as God, and my daughter chooses to adress it Brigit, and my son's family choses to address it as Kali, and others choose to address it as a variety of spirits, I honestly believe that we all address the same One in our own ways.

 

Keep in mind, He (my god) told only a specific group that they should have no other gods before Him. He didn't say that there were no other gods, that others might not put other gods first, or even that He and other gods couldnn't work together. Just that this one group had to put Him first.

 

I don't know what the deity told the Celts, the Balts, the Navaho, the Alieuts.... I'll take their word for it.

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Thanks Natalie, but I am having enough trouble trying to study my own religion now!!, not withstanding all the time I have spent exploring other beliefs today! At some point I might explore, right now I am really enjoying a renewed Bible study in between loads of laundry and dishes and child/dog care.

 

The points Nancy brings up are very interesting indeed. They sound like my dad, kind of. The Sunday School class he leads at our church is the renegade one. The administration long gave up trying to reign them in. It has all ages and all walks of life in it and many many have tried it and found it to be too far "out there" to be comfortable.

 

As you have increased my tolerance for Wiccans, I hope I have increased your tolerance of Christians and helped you to forget maybe just one of those hypocrites you know (we all know them, too bad they don't know who they are!) No conversions happening, if anything the discussion has made my faith stronger.

 

My last burning question: Is there any other religion where someone stood up and said that he/she was the only way? Just curious if Jesus was the only one with that "audacity".

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Nancy, that's a wonderful way of looking at it!

 

Tammy, I can't say for sure, but I'm almost positive there are other religions that have the same belief that it is The Only Way. And for me at least, yes, you have increased my tolerance/acceptance - I love meeting people like you, who are open and try to understand other ways and believe in good, whatever god it comes from.

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It?s not a boot-strap thing. Many of my (much older) relatives have a "keep your chin up" or "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" attitude. I'm here to tell you - its no inadequacy in your character that would make it impossible to do so. Depression is much more complex and difficult than that, and for most the boot-strap method is inefficient.
I'll sure second this one, third it, fourth it and then add a big Hoorah.

Some of my family firmly believes that depression is just a weakness, if only they could for a minute be in that big dark hole so someone could holler down, "hey, just pick yourself up by your boot straps" and see it would only knock them backwards.

 

The sunshine and exercise is a great help!

 

Nice chat about religous beliefs. The group is certainly playing nice. I hope it continues. It will certainly help humanity and our wonderful border collies if we live by what has been discussed here!

Peace to all (ex-hippy who found my faith in nature and loving the world even when it's not all good)

Kristen

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Some of my family firmly believes that depression is just a weakness, if only they could for a minute be in that big dark hole so someone could holler down, "hey, just pick yourself up by your boot straps" and see it would only knock them backwards.
My dad was like that. He always has a positive outlook, he doesn't get depressed about things, he's very level-headed and logical and just does what needs to be done without worrying about it. So when I told him I was diagnosed with depression and had a problem, he told me to "get over it" and that it was all in my head. After me going on meds for several years, and seeing the difference in me as well as talking with me a lot about it all he's come to realize that it's NOT just all in your head, but a physical, chemical affliction.

 

But I'll tell you, being told it's all in my head and that I should just "snap out of it" really REALLY didn't help. I hate people who say things like that. Grr.

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My dad told me that years ago when I was having all of those neurological problems! The docs kept telling me that there was nothing wrong with me - maybe it was psychological. Yeah right. I didn't even have a tendency towards psychological problems.

 

Then that thing in my head grew and I said, "Yep dad, you're right. It was all in my head!" :rolleyes:

 

(That's why I have brain damage BTW! :D )

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he told me to "get over it" and that it was all in my head.
Yes it is....don't they get that your head is the most important part of your body and it can be unhealthy too? I guess if it was in your feet they might give you a break :rolleyes:

edited...

Miz, I know you have other health issues so this wasn't necessarily aimed at you but it still fits ...end of edit

 

Oh well, it's what you do about your own mental health that will help you get peace and understanding.

We find besides exercise and sunshine, that animals in general are one of the best forms of medication or mood altering things we have. Who can't get lovies from our sweet dogs and not feel better or at least crack a smile for a minute.

 

BTW....not that it matters, but I don't suffer from depression, my partner does. When he's down, all I can think is how horrible I feel to see him that way, I can't imagine what it must be like to actually feel that way.

We've learned to deal with his depression and have grown as caring understanding people because of it.

Oh to the lessons of this phase of life. May we quickly learn our lessons and keep on with our journeys.

Mental health is in my opinion one of the most important things we can strive to have.

Peace

Kristen (who doesn't even own boots with straps!)

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Donna, I wrote a song last night right before I went to bed. I must have had you and this thread in the back of my mind. When I get it recorded, I'll bring this thread back up and post a link so you can hear it.

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My dad told me that years ago when I was having all of those neurological problems! The docs kept telling me that there was nothing wrong with me - maybe it was psychological. Yeah right. I didn't even have a tendency towards psychological problems.

 

Then that thing in my head grew and I said, "Yep dad, you're right. It was all in my head!" :rolleyes:

Tee hee. Don't you think you could have found an easier way to prove your point? :D

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I read alot of this thread last night before I went to bed. All I can say is that I went to bed with a smile on my face. Thank you all for being able to have such a complex, thoughtful discussion. If only more people in the world could think and act with such compassion and understanding the world would be a better place. However, you have all shown that there is hope that someday we will all be able to live and let live.

As for my particular beliefs...let's say the jury is still out although I do believe that the older I get, the more inclined I am toward pagan beliefs. Somehow, the idea of balance makes sense to me.

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Oh wow... I've just caught up on this thread and it brought a tear to my eye (a happy tear). You are all so great as it has already been said us Wiccany folk dont normally tell people for fear of the reaction we get... not just Christians but everyone in general. My opinion of Christians hasnt changed... I never thought anything bad of you to begin with :rolleyes: , the only people I have a problem with is those to try and force their beliefs on others. And those who will assume I am evil or a devil worshipper and wont even listen when I try to explain.

I know someone said (might have been Denise...its a long thread) that they'd bend our ears with questions... go ahead. I love talking like this, its such a refreshing change .

Oh and Tammy your God said he was first but did he mention if there were any Godesses before him???? :D :D Only kidding

So without trying to scare any non-wiccans here, Olivia, Donna, Tonya and anyone else what do you have planned for Ostara? I dont get chance to talk to many Wiccans/Pagans... I dont think.

 

Again you are all so great I cant thank you enough for being willing to listen, and I'm sorry some of you got/are scared.

 

Claire x

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The bible says we are supposed to live as closely as we can to the way Jesus did. It says a wife can convert her husband without a word. The bible does not say evey last one of us have a responsibility to thump people over the head with the Word.

 

Reading the bible with a pagan's eye and filtering out all the baloney of man is what converted me to Chrisianity again. It is about love, and balance. God Is all things - male, female, nature... Which is why I really believe that nobody is wrong as long as they walk the path with love in their heart- Like Jesus. If Jesus is love and you accept love in your heart, in your life, then you accept Jesus -even metaforically.

 

In a meditation one day, I saw the collective consciousness- God, the Son, all of us, and all life. It really is much more simple- we make it complicated is what I mean. Everytime I try to verbalize it I bumble it...

 

Ok I'll shut up now.

Love and blessings for all you guys,

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Annette - I like that! Jesus sounds like a really great person (whether or not you regard him as a god as well)....

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This is the first discussion on religious beliefs I have ever encountered that exhibits civility, let alone open-mindedness, compassion and understanding, and an absence of being judgemental. When I noticed that this thread now encompassed 3 pages, I feared that it had lapsed into a battle of indoctrinations--I am so relieved, and impressed with this community.

 

I'll just close by relating a quote I heard from Mary Tyler Moore, because it rang so true in my core "I see divinity in eyes of the animals".

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Oh and can I just add to Olivia earlier comment about her being raised Wiccan rather than converting. I too would like to state that I have always been Wiccan, I always felt different, I was Christened but that never felt right, as a child I was heavily into mythology and ancient Egypt (still am) - unusual for a child of 5. I wont go into in any detail but there was always something in me, nature has always been divine in my mind... I learned of Wicca as a religion when I was 12. So I always say I have always been a witch I just didnt have a name for it before I was 12. Just trying to give you all an insight.

 

Sorry to keep harping on but its sooooooooo nice to be able to talk about this with a whole range of people and know I'm not going to have abuse thrown at me.

 

Okay I'm going for now

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Okay so I'm feeling hormonal today, but this thread just brings tears to my eyes. I thank all of you for being such great people. I think our love of dogs has given us all a common belief that we can all respect. It is really wonderful to see so many open minds and hearts.

 

I also feel like I've learned things and that I have a higher level of understanding and respect for Christianity. Thank you for that.

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Really? Hmmm.. I like your Christ, I like (most of) you Christians its the past church leaders I dont like. Sorry dont want to upset anyone but the Church was used as a tool to scare people. You had to give all your money to the Church to be allowed into Heaven. I know this isnt true nowadays but that really did get me when studying religion at school. Again i know things are different now, please dont take offence. Oh and when I'm in a bad mood it does get to me that The Church 'adopted' the pagan traditions and holidays whilst killing people as witches and trying to wipe out Paganism. Again that is in the past and I DO NOT think badly of Christianity or any other religion. Just my opinion, I do not want to upset anyone or start an argument!

 

I have great respect for anyone who is true to their faith, no matter what that faith is. Please dont think I am slagging off your beliefs. Thats not my intent.

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I think Ghandi had it right on.

 

The way Christianity was used--and therefore abused---throughout history is not what I think Christ would have had in mind. The atrocities done throughout history in the name of religion---Christianity--- is the work of humans, a way to control and subdue, putting their own spin on their religion.

 

I'd like to think of Christianity these days a kinder and gentler religion, although there are some sliver sects out there that I think would still be burning people "in the name of Christ".

 

The phrase "dominion" over the earth and it's creatures really bugs me. I interpret that as some male's interpretion of superiority that other beings, women included, were put here to be "lorded" over by some chest beating male.

 

I'm no longer able to "click" with *most* organized religions, although it really is the sects that are the most outrageous or the ones with the most money who are the best known. The one ones which are quiet and truly do go about "God's work", in a quiet, peaceful, calm way perhaps are the ones that truly go about the work that the founder of Christianity had in mind.

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Hi Clair,

 

For Ostara I plan to leave a few sweet treats (animal safe of course), perhaps traditional hot cross buns, outside for the fairies. I would like to fast but we will see how that goes, I'll probably just try to eat good greens for a couple of days. I will have a ritual that evening. I also plan to plant some special flowers and plants as well as a tree outside, blessing them. Some spring cleaning will also find it's way to my house too!

 

Whatcha got going?

 

Olivia

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Originally posted by Miztiki:

This is what I call a sincere, heartfelt apology, and one I will gladly accept.

 

Thanks for coming clean Donna. That was mighty big of you.

I don't think it could have been said better!

 

A few thoughts:

?It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character.?

~ Dale E. Turner

 

"If you have made mistakes, there is always another chance for you. You may have a fresh start any moment you choose, for this thing we call 'failure' is not the falling down, but the staying down.?

~ Mary Pickford

 

We all make mistakes. We all do things that may not be the best. The true test of a man (or woman) is not if you make a mistake, but how you handle yourself afterwards. I think you have shown yourself well and will say I am proud to know you.

 

Do get some help... at the least get out and talk. Think positive. We all go through a lot of depression in life and it is not something to tackle alone. You can rest assured on the simple thought that you have a good collection of great people here should you need it!

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