BorderCollieSam Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 Oh, I don't know Liz and Sue. This was BCS's Post #96 from the 'bunny thread'; we have 75 more to go Ailsa That made me laugh......no i have no intention of stringing things out like that again, lesson learnt shall we say You are all a nice bunch on here, honestly, and I don't mean to come accross as defensive, its just sometimes you don't allways think about the consequences, i.e., Sam is quite a muscly looking dog and i know Borders require a lot of excercise, i've had them in the past but never really owned a puppy before, they've allways been rescued and therefore the youngest dog i've owned in the past was just under a year...... I'm so eager to train him young, and give him the best start possible, and if he needs excercise them i'm eager to give it to him. I'm aware that Border Collies are used to running 20 miles plus a day as a working dog, so i'm really looking forward to excercising him as i love walking through the hills and mountaineeting, done Scarfel Pike, Ben Nevis, and Skiddaw so far and looking forward to Snowdon in May, was thinking of taking Sam up with me but after the above advise i'm not sure if i should leave him for a while until he gets a little older...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted March 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 That made me laugh......no i have no intention of stringing things out like that again, lesson learnt shall we say You are all a nice bunch on here, honestly, and I don't mean to come accross as defensive, its just sometimes you don't allways think about the consequences, i.e., Sam is quite a muscly looking dog and i know Borders require a lot of excercise, i've had them in the past but never really owned a puppy before, they've allways been rescued and therefore the youngest dog i've owned in the past was just under a year...... Well, you said it above and you think we're being defensive. You've fallen for fallacy in reference to the Border Collie requiring a lot of exercise. They don't need 20 miles a day; they need to be able to do it. And, why is it that you can't understand and talk to your vet about "raising a puppy" above you say in your own words never really owned a puppy before. The consequences of the type of exercise you are giving him can and will be painful. Isn't it better to wait until he is mature or is that what it will take for you to learn? I'm so eager to train him young, and give him the best start possible, and if he needs excercise them i'm eager to give it to him. Great, be eager to train him and all but don't damage him in the process because you are overeager and undereducated. Take time. Talk to your vet. Karen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack & Co. Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 Poor Sam and poor bunny. Lot of exhausted animals in that house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura L Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 How about doing a little more mental exercise with your puppy and leave most of the physical stuff until he's older? Mental exercise will wear a pup out faster than physical anyway. (And why is that I'm still stuck at 70 some odd posts after being on here for years? I need to ask a lot more questions I guess!) Laura Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisK Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 BorderCollieSam, There is no doubt in my mind that you love Sam alot. The folks on this board are a 'nice bunch' as you've pointed out. They really do have the best interests of your Sam in mind...let Sam be a puppy for longer and you'll have him for years and years to go hiking. Just an aside, I got Cricket when she was 6 months old. Little did I know that she had severe hip dysplasia which ultimately cost me $$$$ to have repaired. She NEVER slowed down and never demonstrated that she was in pain even though she must have been in agony.(the x-rays were horrific to say the least) Sam wouldn't necessarily show if he was hurting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4ever Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 I'd have to agree with taking it easy on your pup. When Scooter was about six months old, we moved his crate upstairs so he could be closer to us, if not in the same room. Worked out well for everyone except--it involved a lot of running up and down stairs (and he always ran!) He is now four and was just recently diagnosed with hip dysplasia. I could be wrong, but I can't help but think that that was partially to blame. That and the fact the DH thought it was cool to play Frisbee with him.."Watch him jump!" They're so energetic and fun to play with, we sometimes forget how fragile they really are. I'd rather err on the side of caution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 26, 2009 Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 So, let me run this by the collective experience concerning the exercise levels that Dan is getting. He's 9 1/2 weeks old now and most days, he gets plenty of time loose in the family room, chewing, playing with Megan, getting into trouble, and so on. We tend to take two or three "outings" a day (not counting the numerous trips to the yard just for pottying). They vary from just a trip to the back-of-the-house pasture or pasture on the other side of the road, where I can Chuck-It for the big dogs and Dan mainly watches (and oftentimes, lays in wait by me to try and pounce on Megan when she fetches). He may sniff about and do a little wandering around in a fairly small area, but it's not much exercise for him. Sometimes we go up to the field by the heifers - it can't be over a couple hundred yards each way. The longer trips are a loop to the heifer field, across to the back hayfield where the cows are on the other side, and home again. At a brisk human walk (and we don't walk very briskly with Dan along) it would all take 10-15 minutes, and it's well under a mile in length. The longest walk we've done takes about 10-15 minutes (brisk human pace) each way, with stops and slowdowns, maybe a mile total. The dogs really set the pace for this one. If Dan looks at all tired (sits down, doesn't want to proceed), we turn around and head home, or give him some time to rest. Basically, he's on the go walking with us maybe an hour a day, tops, but probably no more than one to two miles, broken into two to three (or four) different walks, and no longer on pavement than to cross the road. I'm wondering if I am overdoing it after reading all this. Maybe I should be doing more mental and less physical? I know that after puppy class last Thursday evening, he was a very tired pup for the night and the next day. No controversy, please, just looking for opinions and advice - which is what I always expect from people here who care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 Sounds perfect to me, Sue. I'm assuming that on your walks you're not necessarily "going anywhere," just letting the dogs sniff and explore and potty and run if they will, and the little guy is not chasing the ball when you're chucking it, A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 ^^What she said. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 Dan definitely is not chasing the ball at all. He sometimes pounces on it when one of the other dogs drops it near my feet or I roll it for him just a foot or two, but he primarily stays within 5 or 10 yards of me, and often right by me. He likes to grab the end of the Chuck-It and tug on it while the dogs are fetching. We are going someplace on the walks but lots of it is meandering, stop and go, and so on. I take the Chuck-It and toss the ball for the big dogs, and Dan and I move on a little (or not, there's no set agenda). We alternate walking with standing and tossing the ball, practicing recall (he's often on the Flexi so he can't go too far and he can't decide to not come back to me, or eat more poopies than is good for him). A short trip is usually just up to the hayfield by the heifers if Ed (or I) are just checking on them, and back again. Maybe 10 minutes total at the casual pace we set. A trip to the cow field involves about 10 minutes each way, again playing ball along the way, sniffing, and exploring. While Ed checks the cows, I stay in the next field and play ball with the big dogs, Dan ambushes Megan and tugs on various body parts when she fetches, and we spend some time just sitting or (for the dogs) sniffing around. The longer trips are to the heifer field and on to the cow field, or past the heifer field up to the neighbor's woods. We take it at a moderate or casual pace, broken up with stops and goes. The first few days here, you could tell that Dan would get tired quickly and, if he sat, we stopped or sometimes gave him a lift. With two weeks of growth and consistent exercise, he seems quite capable of the trips with their stops for rest, but I just was wondering (in light of the repetitive movement discussions) if this might be too much. On work days, it's no trip past the back pasture in the morning, and maybe the heifer/cow pasture loop in the evening. On partial days home, it's usually a heifer trip and a cow trip. On full days home, it's usually three trips, heifer, cow, and maybe the neighbor's. I don't want to mess him up in any way that I can avoid. Thanks! So many threads got side-tracked over the past couple of days of server issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaryNH Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 That made me laugh......no i have no intention of stringing things out like that again, lesson learnt shall we say You are all a nice bunch on here, honestly, and I don't mean to come accross as defensive, its just sometimes you don't allways think about the consequences, i.e., Sam is quite a muscly looking dog and i know Borders require a lot of excercise, i've had them in the past but never really owned a puppy before, they've allways been rescued and therefore the youngest dog i've owned in the past was just under a year...... I'm so eager to train him young, and give him the best start possible, and if he needs excercise them i'm eager to give it to him. I'm aware that Border Collies are used to running 20 miles plus a day as a working dog, so i'm really looking forward to excercising him as i love walking through the hills and mountaineeting, done Scarfel Pike, Ben Nevis, and Skiddaw so far and looking forward to Snowdon in May, was thinking of taking Sam up with me but after the above advise i'm not sure if i should leave him for a while until he gets a little older...? --------------------------------------- Sam is just adorable, and so is your little girl. Does she look like her Daddy, or what? Thanks for this morning's smile! Mary and Travis the Trickless WonderDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 --------------------------------------- Sam is just adorable, and so is your little girl. Does she look like her Daddy, or what? Thanks for this morning's smile! Mary and Travis the Trickless WonderDog Hi Mary, thank you for the compliments, that brought a smile to my face also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTrain Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 I am disgusted every time I see a person riding a bike and their adult dog running along beside let alone a puppy. Lets use some common sense here. Dogs are not joggers and I am sick and tired of people telling me that this is exercise and the way to better health. I am tired of people assuming that this sort of thing because they think is good for humans must be good for the dog. To the original OP, you are well on your way to causing serious damage to this puppy if you keep it up. Are you thinking. Puppy's require exercise but observe a group of puppy's and you will quickly discover they do not go jogging. Why, because repetitive exercise is of no value to them and will cause serious joint problems. You will quickly discover that they run and jump and wrestle and in this they are learning something and getting both the outlet for their energy and exercise to grow healthy and strong. You may well be on your way to creating an obsessed dog. Get off your bike, be creative and give your puppy what he needs to grow and be strong. You are serving no purpose other than to satisfy yourself and riding your bike with the puppy crashing and banging his joints into the ground is just plain lazy. Do some study and understand. Sure border collie puppies require a lot of exercise but in a natural way. I allow my puppies to play until they exhaust themselves but I allow them to be puppies not robots and my puppies turn into big, strong, healthy and happy working dogs. And when they are working dogs they can work stock from sunup to sundown at times and be completely spent but they have the spirit and drive and the power to do it. I am Canadian, I have played hockey since the age of six, I was drafted to junior at the age of fifteen and I was drafted to pro hockey at the age of twenty. I was finished at the age of twenty-three with bad knees and all sorts of join problems. Today I can hardly get up from a chair and walk across a room without pain. All this from body punishing exercise. Do your puppy a favor and let him be a puppy not an exercise machine. Do yourself a favor and get off the bike and learn something about dogs, learn something about puppies and socialize with your dog. Sorry for being so harsh but you are way off base on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdmiralGonsiorowski Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 Does anyone have any links to studies about this? Or articles from vets? I've heard often that you shouldn't over-exercise a puppy, but I've never seen anything official on the subject, or anything official about how much (and what type of) exercise is acceptable. I've found one article that connects increased physical activity (even before growth plates close) with greater bone mass, and lower risk of fractures later in life, but isn't specific to dogs and so doesn't mention anything about hip dysplasia. http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/71/6/1384.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 Does anyone have any links to studies about this? Or articles from vets? I don't have any links for you but there must be some articles out there on the Internet. Not sure what you mean by "official" because there are differences in opinion among "experts" on most subjects. I'm no longer in sports, but last time I checked there were frequently articles -- often by vets discussing the need to be careful with your puppy not just with training skills like jumping, weaving and contacts but also exercise in general. The consensus among the experts in agility, for example, was you take it very slow and easy with puppies both in training and exercise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMack Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Didn't Sam's dad already say he was going to quit with the bike? Sorry for being harsh, but you might want to read the entire thread. I am disgusted every time I see a person riding a bike and their adult dog running along beside let alone a puppy. Lets use some common sense here. Dogs are not joggers and I am sick and tired of people telling me that this is exercise and the way to better health. I am tired of people assuming that this sort of thing because they think is good for humans must be good for the dog. To the original OP, you are well on your way to causing serious damage to this puppy if you keep it up. Are you thinking. Puppy's require exercise but observe a group of puppy's and you will quickly discover they do not go jogging. Why, because repetitive exercise is of no value to them and will cause serious joint problems. You will quickly discover that they run and jump and wrestle and in this they are learning something and getting both the outlet for their energy and exercise to grow healthy and strong. You may well be on your way to creating an obsessed dog. Get off your bike, be creative and give your puppy what he needs to grow and be strong. You are serving no purpose other than to satisfy yourself and riding your bike with the puppy crashing and banging his joints into the ground is just plain lazy. Do some study and understand. Sure border collie puppies require a lot of exercise but in a natural way. I allow my puppies to play until they exhaust themselves but I allow them to be puppies not robots and my puppies turn into big, strong, healthy and happy working dogs. And when they are working dogs they can work stock from sunup to sundown at times and be completely spent but they have the spirit and drive and the power to do it.I am Canadian, I have played hockey since the age of six, I was drafted to junior at the age of fifteen and I was drafted to pro hockey at the age of twenty. I was finished at the age of twenty-three with bad knees and all sorts of join problems. Today I can hardly get up from a chair and walk across a room without pain. All this from body punishing exercise. Do your puppy a favor and let him be a puppy not an exercise machine. Do yourself a favor and get off the bike and learn something about dogs, learn something about puppies and socialize with your dog. Sorry for being so harsh but you are way off base on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertranger Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Over and above the people who walk their dogs with bikes or golf carts as happens here there is more to excercising a puppy than meets they eye. Care has to be used because they're joints and bones are not formed yet. that means a puppy can tear or break something when they get really active in their play. I do a walk twice a day and a half hour of play with a ball or something making sure I don't throw it so Jin goes after it full steam. A puppy tripping over his own feet going full speed can hurt himself. I also have to be very careful when working on hard floors since he slips and slides. Again it's a question of keeping him from hurting himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 AG, I think someone posted some links on the subject in the thread in which this discussion actually started, which was the "should I keep my border collie?" thread. If you go back to that thread and look at the last page Alaska had posted some information that might be helpful to you and at least send you in the right direction for additional research. This topic has also been discussed in the health and genetics section in the past, but no thread sticks out particularly in my mind for me to go do a quick search for it, and I don't have time at the moment to do a full, but if you want to, try searching a term like "exercise" and "puppy" and see if you can find anything. You may also want to search in the obedience, agility section as this sort of topic would also appear there. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 I am disgusted every time I see a person riding a bike and their adult dog running along beside let alone a puppy. Lets use some common sense here. Dogs are not joggers and I am sick and tired of people telling me that this is exercise and the way to better health. I am tired of people assuming that this sort of thing because they think is good for humans must be good for the dog. To the original OP, you are well on your way to causing serious damage to this puppy if you keep it up. Are you thinking. Puppy's require exercise but observe a group of puppy's and you will quickly discover they do not go jogging. Why, because repetitive exercise is of no value to them and will cause serious joint problems. You will quickly discover that they run and jump and wrestle and in this they are learning something and getting both the outlet for their energy and exercise to grow healthy and strong. You may well be on your way to creating an obsessed dog. Get off your bike, be creative and give your puppy what he needs to grow and be strong. You are serving no purpose other than to satisfy yourself and riding your bike with the puppy crashing and banging his joints into the ground is just plain lazy. Do some study and understand. Sure border collie puppies require a lot of exercise but in a natural way. I allow my puppies to play until they exhaust themselves but I allow them to be puppies not robots and my puppies turn into big, strong, healthy and happy working dogs. And when they are working dogs they can work stock from sunup to sundown at times and be completely spent but they have the spirit and drive and the power to do it.I am Canadian, I have played hockey since the age of six, I was drafted to junior at the age of fifteen and I was drafted to pro hockey at the age of twenty. I was finished at the age of twenty-three with bad knees and all sorts of join problems. Today I can hardly get up from a chair and walk across a room without pain. All this from body punishing exercise. Do your puppy a favor and let him be a puppy not an exercise machine. Do yourself a favor and get off the bike and learn something about dogs, learn something about puppies and socialize with your dog. Sorry for being so harsh but you are way off base on this one. Hi DTrain, my fault mate, i should have mentioned in this thread, but i've created a thread here:- http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=23534 where i've discussed my future intentions. Extracted from above thread:- Sam is 15 weeks old, and I understand some of your concerns regarding my over-exercising Sam, however hopefully from the videos above you will see how relaxed our walks are, as it is mostly hilly and I have only two legs compared to Sams 4! I have the upmost respect and love for Sam and I wouldn’t intentionally want to cause him any harm or long-term illness. I come onto these forums like many others to learn and who knows I may be able to share a little that I have learnt in my time. However, not everybody has a degree in Animal Anatomy and therefore some are ‘uneducated’ in the damage that over-exercising can cause a young pup. This ‘uneducated’ person isn’t a person who doesn’t ‘care’, but somebody who needs to and wants to learn to enable him to provide the best upbringing for his pup. I have not approached a vet regarding the cycling issue, however I have decided to air on the side of caution for the time being and to wait until Sam is a little older before I continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 UPDATE:- Spoke to a vet nurse the other week on the telephone regarding over exercising puppies, she said that cycling and hour long walks would be too much and limit walks to about 20 minutes and avoid bike riding until he is closer to 10/11 months..... However, was at the vets on Saturday morning for Sams additional Parvo Booster, and i mentioned to an actual VET that i'm a little concerned regarding over excercising Sam and i mentioned that i've taken him on bike rides with me in the past and he said the following:- (Pretty much word for word) 'There is some evidence to 'suggest' that over excercising a medium-large size dog 'may' increase the risk of hip dysplasia/arthritis and other associated conditions occuring in adult life, however whether or not you consider a Border Collie to be a Medium-Large size dog is a matter of opinion. The majority of cases are genetic and would materialise regardless of whether the dog was over excersised as a pup or not. However, under excercising Sam will have a more detrimental effect than over excercising him........ He said as long as you aren't going to take him running a marathon then he couldn't see a problem! So, it seems there is definetely a difference of opinion with regard to this topic depending on who you speak to....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Your vet apparently said 'There is some evidence to 'suggest' that over excercising a medium-large size dog 'may' increase the risk of hip dysplasia/arthritis and other associated conditions occuring in adult life, however whether or not you consider a Border Collie to be a Medium-Large size dog is a matter of opinion. The majority of cases are genetic and would materialise regardless of whether the dog was over excersised as a pup or not If you google the causes of HD you will see that that is not entirely true as there is no one cause, although a genetic predisposition is an important factor. Are you 100% certain that your pup does not have that predisposition? If a dog does have the makings of being dysplastic (and you would be unlikely to be able to tell at a glance) then easy research on the net would convince most people that it isn't worth the risk of making it worse by over exercising. Your pup may be from hip tested parents but that is no guarantee whatever, it justs alters the odds. Low hip scores in both parents can still produce pups with HD. You want to bring up a fit and healthy dog. That is exactly what posters on here have done many times over and they are all telling you the same thing. BC pups (or adults for that matter) do not need excessive amounts of exercise. It is a myth. Why risk breaking your pup if there is no need? Right - I'm off to agility training now but I won't wake up my 3 year old BC to take him and I'm sure the house will still be standing when I get back. Pam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Your vet apparently said 'There is some evidence to 'suggest' that over excercising a medium-large size dog 'may' increase the risk of hip dysplasia/arthritis and other associated conditions occuring in adult life, however whether or not you consider a Border Collie to be a Medium-Large size dog is a matter of opinion. The majority of cases are genetic and would materialise regardless of whether the dog was over excersised as a pup or not If you google the causes of HD you will see that that is not entirely true as there is no one cause, although a genetic predisposition is an important factor. Are you 100% certain that your pup does not have that predisposition? If a dog does have the makings of being dysplastic (and you would be unlikely to be able to tell at a glance) then easy research on the net would convince most people that it isn't worth the risk of making it worse by over exercising. Your pup may be from hip tested parents but that is no guarantee whatever, it justs alters the odds. Low hip scores in both parents can still produce pups with HD. You want to bring up a fit and healthy dog. That is exactly what posters on here have done many times over and they are all telling you the same thing. BC pups (or adults for that matter) do not need excessive amounts of exercise. It is a myth. Why risk breaking your pup if there is no need? Right - I'm off to agility training now but I won't wake up my 3 year old BC to take him and I'm sure the house will still be standing when I get back. Pam Exactly, and thats why i AM airing on the side of caution and not taking him on any more bike rides for the 'time being', until he is closer to a year old. However, as discussed previously we have a 1 hr walk every morning at 6am through the fields where i live, he is not exerting himself anymore than he does wandering around the house, in actual fact he probably rests more when on walks as he waits in front for me to catch up with him, and he also sits down on his butt as if he's on guard duty waiting for me..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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