Where should the outrun end?

[Debbie Meier]

As I build distance on my outruns am I correct in thinking that I need to take into consideration the draws to be sure the my dog is stopping at balance to me vs. just 12 o'clock when he is on autopilot? I realized that I'm looking for a 12 o'clock stopping point, not balance, so my dog seems to be just hunting 12 o'clock regardless of the pressure of the sheep. I wonder if by doing so, is that making him tight, once he can sees his destination he just kinda goes straight to it and then realizing the sheep are upset he panics trying to get to the real balance point which is no longer on the back side, but somewhere between he and I. I hope I'm not sounding to out there, but it dawned on me that by not being clear that I wanted him to find balance he instead picked up what I was clear on, 12 o'clock. It really does not show bad until we end up light sheep or on sheep that won't lift, I can handle him through heavy sheep but it gets wild when the sheep are light, with him panicking.

 

So I guess, if I'm getting what I think I am, how do I reteach it without him thinking that he is being punished too badly for what he thinks is right or rather isolate out what is incorrect, or is it as simple as making sure that he stops at 12 o'clock and does not move until the sheep have moved off far enough so that he recognizes that he in a position that will allow good control when he lifts, even though the lift would take the sheep on a line that does not come to me? He should then figure out the right pressure widen out and then I can go back and show him that the outrun stops at balance to me not exclusively 12 o'clock. Am I thinking right or making it too difficult? It seems like stopping him when he starts thinking 12 o'clock (which looks like a slice) is not getting the concept through to him, it just allows me to reset his flank which is ok and everything is wonderful, but I don't want to stop him on his outrun as a standard practice or use a manual out command if I can get him to understand the proper position and pressure location to end his outrun on. It's really frustrating, this dog reads pressure, he understands pressure and control, but he stops reading pressure after he hits a certain point of his outrun.

 

I'm sorry if I'm being a bone head. I guess first I need to be clear myself as to what the true ending point of the outrun should be so that I can teach him what I really want or expect when I send him on the outrun, and as I think about, I'm not 100% certain. So is it 12 o'clock or balance to me?

 

Deb

[Guest carol campion]

As I build distance on my outruns am I correct in thinking that I need to take into consideration the draws to be sure the my dog is stopping at balance to me vs. just 12 o'clock when he is on autopilot? I realized that I'm looking for a 12 o'clock stopping point, not balance, so my dog seems to be just hunting 12 o'clock regardless of the pressure of the sheep. I wonder if by doing so, is that making him tight, once he can sees his destination he just kinda goes straight to it and then realizing the sheep are upset he panics trying to get to the real balance point which is no longer on the back side, but somewhere between he and I. I hope I'm not sounding to out there, but it dawned on me that by not being clear that I wanted him to find balance he instead picked up what I was clear on, 12 o'clock. It really does not show bad until we end up light sheep or on sheep that won't lift, I can handle him through heavy sheep but it gets wild when the sheep are light, with him panicking.

 

So I guess, if I'm getting what I think I am, how do I reteach it without him thinking that he is being punished too badly for what he thinks is right or rather isolate out what is incorrect, or is it as simple as making sure that he stops at 12 o'clock and does not move until the sheep have moved off far enough so that he recognizes that he in a position that will allow good control when he lifts, even though the lift would take the sheep on a line that does not come to me? He should then figure out the right pressure widen out and then I can go back and show him that the outrun stops at balance to me not exclusively 12 o'clock. Am I thinking right or making it too difficult? It seems like stopping him when he starts thinking 12 o'clock (which looks like a slice) is not getting the concept through to him, it just allows me to reset his flank which is ok and everything is wonderful, but I don't want to stop him on his outrun as a standard practice or use a manual out command if I can get him to understand the proper position and pressure location to end his outrun on. It's really frustrating, this dog reads pressure, he understands pressure and control, but he stops reading pressure after he hits a certain point of his outrun.

 

I'm sorry if I'm being a bone head. I guess first I need to be clear myself as to what the true ending point of the outrun should be so that I can teach him what I really want or expect when I send him on the outrun, and as I think about, I'm not 100% certain. So is it 12 o'clock or balance to me?

 

Deb

 

 

Hi Deb

 

Wow! You have certainly given this a lot of thought.

 

I guess my answer is I would shorten it all up and go back to basics. I wouldn't send him too far if he couldn't outrun properly.

 

To answer what I think is the gist of your question, I train my dogs to run deep at the top and like them to find balance, however in a young dog, I will make a point of setting up the outruns so the pressure will land them at 12. I make sure balance and 12 are the same. I don't allow them to fall in at an angle and slip in to 12 on the fetch if the sheep leave before the dog gets there. I want them to hold the arc til they are behind the sheep. That is my default and I get them doing this correctly before I mix it up or add more difficult lifts, etc.

 

My feeling is that if they learn to hold the arc deep til they are behind the sheep, a trained dog can adjust to where they need to be without upsetting the sheep if they land slightly off. If I have a dog I am fixing for someone that has been allowed to run too tight, coming in short due to eye or bad habits—like too much driving that interferes with the outruns—I will intentionally have a dog over-run for a while to forget about coming in at the early spot. I do want them to hold the arc and run deep past the early spot that is wrong—basically reprograming them as to where I will let them to take hold of the sheep from. Once they have given up their "short" spot, and freely cast past, I start stopping them at 12 and/or the balance point to show them what I want. A dog wth good balance picks this up pretty fast. Again, I get this done up close at hand first. If I am fixing a problem dog, I take them back to at-hand. If it is a pup I am starting, I get this all done early early on before I start sending them distances, so we don't have to fix it later.

 

If a dog is over running, I still want them deep and then I will try stopping them on balance/12 as a first choice to show them where the balance point is. Again, if they are deep, they can look and see & adjust without upsetting the sheep.

 

Once I have a youngster running deep and correct with me setting up the outruns so the balance point is 12, I start angling it and mixing it up so the dog learns to read other pressure. If I know he. she can outrun correctly without weird pressure, it helps me know when a dog is off on its feeling it.

 

I try, in all my dog training, to have plenty of "show me" sessions. I like to know that later in training, when I ask something of a dog, that they have been shown and know how to properly execute what is being asked of them.

 

Hope this helps

 

Carol

[Debbie Meier]

Thanks Carol,

 

I'll let you know how it goes, I need to take more time to process the information you gave here along with the other evening. As I reflect, I'm realizing that I am not making sure that my dog is solid enough in method and concept before adding more difficulty. I think it is due to me hoping that he would get solid with variation and challange, rather then using variation and challange to proof how solid he is.

 

Deb

[KathyF]

To answer what I think is the gist of your question, I train my dogs to run deep at the top and like them to find balance, however in a young dog, I will make a point of setting up the outruns so the pressure will land them at 12. I make sure balance and 12 are the same. I don't allow them to fall in at an angle and slip in to 12 on the fetch if the sheep leave before the dog gets there. I want them to hold the arc til they are behind the sheep. That is my default and I get them doing this correctly before I mix it up or add more difficult lifts, etc.

 

My feeling is that if they learn to hold the arc deep til they are behind the sheep, a trained dog can adjust to where they need to be without upsetting the sheep if they land slightly off. If I have a dog I am fixing for someone that has been allowed to run too tight, coming in short due to eye or bad habits—like too much driving that interferes with the outruns—I will intentionally have a dog over-run for a while to forget about coming in at the early spot.

Carol

 

 

Carol-

 

Can you elaborate some more on how you teach your dogs to run deep at the top?? Are there some exercises that you use for this? What do you do with a dog that has been allowed to slice in or come in too tight on the top to get it deeper?? Just the going past 12 o'clock or is there something else that you do?

 

Thanks,

Kathy

[Debbie Meier]

Just a little quick up date, I used Jake to move a small group and immediately noticed that he was not staying hooked when flanking, he was looking for excuses to stop, the sheep moved, I think you want me to walk up now, etc., I took it as basic anticipation especially when he felt pressure changes (via the fence, the sheep or even me). I focused on correcting that one part, and once he quit stopping on his own he then would go deep on his flank without me doing anything to correct it. I got that part working right again along with a solid full stop, which really only took a few minutes and thought it best to walk away for a bit and come back to it. My thought is that when I take him back to work to verify that those two basics are working and then ask him for a walk up from the full stop at 12 o'clock and balance to me. That should set him up to anticipate stopping on his next flank again giving me the chance to clearly show him that when I tell him to flank he is expected to flank until I tell him not to (for now).

 

I went back and worked him a little later in our oval pen, 5 sheep, 80 x 100, I'm having some space issues, he's not just running the fence, he is rating down so that he can get around on his flanks but also not pushing on his flanks or stopping where ever he sees fit, but I'm going to take him out into a bigger area to see if I can establish for certain whether or not he is know getting out too big. I'm kinda entering into shaky territory with him, I've been here before and he played the I'll just get out further so that Deb can't make me go game on me and camped out where ever he saw fit to hold stock up at distance. I remember feeling as if I was being held hostage. I'm thinking that I held him out to long back then and did not give him enough opportunities to fetch or drive the sheep, so I'm going to try making sure that I balance his on pressure work with is off pressure work in hopes that it will keep his off pressure work from getting to a place or irrelivence. Am I making sense? I don't want to take him out into too big of an open field, he has lit off and ran hillsides in an attempt to run his own agenda on me in the past.

 

ETA: A big difference from then and now, I have more handle on him, when he was running too big on me before I did not have a good stop or inside flank on him, only the ability to flank him toward a balance point, it was before I trialed him Novice, I've since been able to run him pro-novice by using redirects when needed on his outruns as long as I can get him redirected before he gets too committed to his own agenda.

 

Deb

[Guest carol campion]

Carol-

 

Can you elaborate some more on how you teach your dogs to run deep at the top?? Are there some exercises that you use for this? What do you do with a dog that has been allowed to slice in or come in too tight on the top to get it deeper?? Just the going past 12 o'clock or is there something else that you do?

 

Thanks,

Kathy

 

 

The same as I wrote for Deb Mickey's dog, but with some dogs, if they keep pushing in at the old tight spot, you may really need to get on them to push them out. A good strong correction letting them know they are not to come into that space. I usually will spend a fair amount of time "showing" a dog what I want. Then if I feel like I am being pushed on, I push back. But be firm enough you get it done and are not just nagging.

 

Be careful sending a dog past 12 too much. You want clean arcs-not overrunning. You want them giving up the idea of a wrong spot to angle in at, not necessarily overrunning.

[Guest carol campion]

I'm kinda entering into shaky territory with him, I've been here before and he played the I'll just get out further so that Deb can't make me go game on me and camped out where ever he saw fit to hold stock up at distance. I remember feeling as if I was being held hostage. I'm thinking that I held him out to long back then and did not give him enough opportunities to fetch or drive the sheep, so I'm going to try making sure that I balance his on pressure work with is off pressure work in hopes that it will keep his off pressure work from getting to a place or irrelivence. Am I making sense? I don't want to take him out into too big of an open field, he has lit off and ran hillsides in an attempt to run his own agenda on me in the past.

 

Deb

 

 

If he is getting too wide, just stop him and have him walk up. If he is running through a correction, a good stop and a long line on him that you can pick up just before you correct him will keep him from running through a correction. Because you will have a captive audience, no need for as strong a correction! Works like a charm. They have to sit there and take it and can't run from it.