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Should I keep my border collie


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...I must say that I would never allow my kids to kick or hit a dog. It's totally unnecessary and sets a very bad precedent. (I never do, either, but that is a matter for a training thread, not a general topic.) I also would not allow my dog to "gnash it's teeth" at my kids, if I understand what you mean by the phrase. Neither did I allow my kids to do things that would "really piss (the dogs) off."

Golly! You must have far greater control over your kids than I have had with mine. I didn't 'allow' my kids to jump on the bed, but that didn't stop them from doing so.

 

As for what I did - it worked. Look at the pictures. Leila went on to spend many, many hours playing with the kids. And the neighborhood kids. Not being total angels, they sometimes did stuff that made her mad, but she never bit anyone. She didn't nip. She UNDERSTOOD.

 

I'm not talking about clubbing her or beating her to a pulp. When a dog gets too rough with a playmate, the playmate gives a little nip to say, "That hurt! Knock it off!" And the other dog understands. The idea is to communicate displeasure in a way the pup understands.

 

Leila not only played many hours with our older kids, but was an outstanding watcher of our baby. On a summer day, you could watch her racing around, playing soccer and wrestling with the neighborhood kids for hours. If you have a better technique, share it! But my advice worked fine for Leila, and Danny, and Samantha. And now, when Samantha's daughter complains about a dog, Samantha's first words are, "What did you do?" And if she comes over for a visit later today, odds are good I'll see a 3 year old running around the backyard with 2 puppies, and maybe the older dog. Lots of noise, but no nipping.

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I am really taken aback w/ your comments...Unfortunately I got your response and was very turned off by what seems to be an otherwise helpful site.

It IS a helpful site. However, a lot of folks will get pretty dogmatic on their advice. They don't know your family, but they KNOW what you should do.

 

It is advice, given by folks that don't know you. Mine may or may not work for you - your call. I think of it like a bird picking thru poop - there is corn in there somewhere, but you might have to search to find it!

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I have a 13 week old female Boder Collie and we are really struggling w/ her. Got her from an Amish breeder who does work their dogs on their farm. Informed breeder that we had 3 small children all under the age of 5 and they assured us she would be a fine pet. Was excited about puppy seeing as all the studies rave about the intelligence of the Boder collies, how they love to play fetch and frisbee and are so loving and wonderful. Unfortunately we are not seeing very much of that. She pretty much cannot be around the children as she is constantly herding them, nipping at them and biting despite every kind of punishment from gently re directing to popping her nose! She basically cannot be around the children b/c the slightest movement like just walking across the room starts her biting etc. As for exercising her she has no interest in fetch, she will chase the ball and herd it as it rolls but will not pick it up and retrieve. She will run around w/ a soccer ball which we have found to be the one pleasant activity w/ her. I have tried taking her to the park and she is horrible on the leash but again I cannot let her off the leash as she terrorizes the children. I know that some basic obedience classes are necessarity for usual puppy problems like growling over her food, teaching her basic commands etc. But before I spend the money I want to know if it is worth it...can she be a pet vs a working dog on a farm? My vet says that since she came from a working line of Border Collies her herding instinct may be so strong that it would be difficult and even border on cruel to break her from it. Is that true? How can I find out if she will be able to blend w/ our family as a pet? Is this just typical Border collie puppy behavior, should I move forward w/ obedience classes? Please help!!!

 

You have a working bred puppy. They take alot of work - alot of work and supervision. If you cannot directly supervise, there will be nipping and herdy behavior toward your children. Your children are too young to deal with her on their own. With her behavior right now there needs to be firm boundries, lots of supervision, redirecting her energy to a toy and times out if she gets to wound up.

 

So your options are 1) returning her to the breeder or rehoming her through rescue. 2) Schelduling the one on one time she needs from you for exercise and training, with very limited interaction with your children until you have taught her the basics. It may be several months before your pup is ready for (supervised) playtime with the kids.

 

Training should be done in your back yard right now, not a park. There are just too many distractions for her puppy brain. If you work with her in a quiet (no other people) place with short sessions (a couple minutes max) and lots of yummy treats, you will make lots more progress with her. This can be difficult to do with young children in the mix, so you need to decide if you will have the time/place do this with her, or if it would be in everyones best interest to find a new home for her.

 

As for interest in fetch, that need to be taught (not all BCs come with it hard wired in) it sounds like she has loads of prey drive, so you just need to make the ball the most interesting thing in the world, and then, just as she gets very interested in it, put it away and bring it out later. I imagine within a week or so she will be much more inteested in playing with the ball.

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Thank you for saying that Caroline. As children we were *never* allowed to punish a pet. Little kids just don't have the motor skills or control to consistently apply that kind of punishment. Bob, I know you said that they were shown how hard of a kick to give, but honestly I don't think kids can keep that in mind, and I wouldn't want to set such a precedent either. Kids forget. I had a 9-year-old neighbor, good kid, smart as a whip, but he forgot on more than one occasion when he asked to come over and play with the dogs not to run from them, and you can guess the consequences. I would expect a younger child to be even less capable of remembering the dos and don'ts, and personally I wouldn't leave kids under 9 or so alone with a pet anyway--for both of their safety.

 

J.

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Thank you so much for your kind response. I am actually shocked by how mean people on this site were in response to my question :rolleyes:

 

I don't think people were mean in response to your first post. You ask and you got honest opinions. To me, that shows more about the person than someone who might sugar-coat it (not saying anyone did this though)

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I have a 13 week old female Boder Collie and we are really struggling w/ her. Got her from an Amish breeder who does work their dogs on their farm. Informed breeder that we had 3 small children all under the age of 5 and they assured us she would be a fine pet.

 

A seller telling someone that a pup they wish to sell will be "a fine pet" is common enough, but it's not the mark of a responsible seller to sell a little Border Collie pup to a first time owner with multiple pre-schoolers. I'm sorry you have gotten into this dilemma.

 

Was excited about puppy seeing as all the studies rave about the intelligence of the Boder collies, how they love to play fetch and frisbee and are so loving and wonderful. Unfortunately we are not seeing very much of that. She pretty much cannot be around the children as she is constantly herding them, nipping at them and biting despite every kind of punishment from gently re directing to popping her nose! She basically cannot be around the children b/c the slightest movement like just walking across the room starts her biting etc. As for exercising her she has no interest in fetch, she will chase the ball and herd it as it rolls but will not pick it up and retrieve. She will run around w/ a soccer ball which we have found to be the one pleasant activity w/ her.

 

She's just a little baby still. Games like fetch and frisbee often are not interesting to a youngster until they get a little age on them.

 

Border Collies tend to be motion and sound sensitive and, having little kids, you probably have a great deal of that going on. I have six grandchildren and my three adult dogs are fine with them, but I would not let my pup loose with a lot of childish activity going on. It would be perfectly natural for the pup to want to play in a fashion natural to it, as it would with other pups, but children are not pups and you have found that there is nipping and other undesireable behavior.

 

I have tried taking her to the park and she is horrible on the leash but again I cannot let her off the leash as she terrorizes the children. I know that some basic obedience classes are necessarity for usual puppy problems like growling over her food, teaching her basic commands etc. But before I spend the money I want to know if it is worth it...can she be a pet vs a working dog on a farm? My vet says that since she came from a working line of Border Collies her herding instinct may be so strong that it would be difficult and even border on cruel to break her from it. Is that true? How can I find out if she will be able to blend w/ our family as a pet? Is this just typical Border collie puppy behavior, should I move forward w/ obedience classes? Please help!!!

 

I believe that a good, well-run puppy class (with "homework" assignments that you do at home to reinforce and teach lessons) is an excellent start to any pup's life. In fact, my new pup is going to his first class tonight. He will experience being on a leash, focusing on me (with the help of treats), basic obedience (sit, down, stay, loose-leash walking - all the basics), dealing with new things (umbrellas, silly hats, mechanical toys, new people), socializing with other puppies (under supervision) and with new people (we play "pass the puppy" in a big, outward-facing circle as part of the socialization), how to be handled for physical exams (gentling exercises), how to administer liquid and tablet medication, and I will learn a whole array of skills that will help me to help him to be a well-mannered member of a family that can be taken out in public and expected to behave.

 

But it won't be accomplished in six one-hour lessons. It's an everyday, all day task to mold and shape a pup. I had a bit of your situation with my first real Border Collie puppy, and I was the experienced raiser of quite a number of pups over the years. But my pup was smart as a whip and was smart enough to realize that he could gain the upper hand. He became, under some situations, very poorly trained and controlled. I didn't make the same mistakes again. Also, the training I was receiving at the puppy class was something I was doing at home, so that he was becoming quite the gentlemanly six-month old pup when he was killed in an accident.

 

I think you are really trying to do right by this pup. One problem in "doing research" is that while you may get good advice (and I think you've gotten a lot of it here, even though it has hurt your feelings and made you defensive), you may also get some bad advice - and how do you know the difference? I've read a number of articles and publications on the Border Collie and I hate to say it but the ones that are "pet owner oriented" are often overly optimistic and short on real cautions.

 

I do think you should take a good class, knowing that you will need to follow through at home with the training and the supervision. Do get a crate so that the pup has his own place and down-time, and your children will also have time where they can romp and play (and not do it in front of the pup in his crate - that will only worsen things).

 

Just my opinions, and I hope you will stay and ask very specific questions (be specific in the topic title to help guide people who can advise you to your topic) so that you can get specific answers. I hope it works out for you but I wouldn't discount the advice that you might need to consider rehoming him (the breeder - maybe - I hate to be blunt but that might mean a quick trip behind the shed with a .22 if he isn't a resale option for the breeder).

 

Please, don't shoot the messenger when the message (some replies you haven't liked because they have been blunt) isn't what you want to hear. Sometimes those are the messages you might need to hear most. I know, because that's happened to me often enough. This message board is all about the dogs, not about the people's feelings.

 

I wish you, your family, and your pup the best outcome to this very trying situation.

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I trained many dogs while my kids were from babies on up and never allowed them to physically punish the dogs. Even if it was something I would physically correct - like for seriously biting - just as if a sibling laid a hand on them they were to take it to me, not "Take the law in their own hands." Kids aren't able to discriminate between a fair correction and an emotional one - and a five year old is much too immature to think of the nonphysical tools in the tool chest first.

 

Anyway, I agree that you, the OP, may need to take a step back and re-evaluate - there's frustration coming out on many levels here - if you are committed to the pup, take a breath and simply forget the breed, forget the source, take the pup at face value and start at square one. Crate train, set up some boundaries, try to establish some one on one time just with the pup, and also do some "with me" training that will get the pup thinking you are the Coolest Thing Ever. Tie the leash to your belt loop and go through part of your day like that. Every so often, ask pup to do a sit or down and pop a treat in her mouth.

 

Patricia McConnell has a new little book out that's really nice - it's a quick read - a six week course you can do in your home and teach your pup all the basics. Your kids will love it! I just got my book and my puppy is not quite three weeks old and my kids want to start NOW. :rolleyes:

Family Friendly Dog Training

 

And see, it has a Border Collie on the cover! Patricia has Border Collies and her methods work well with them (and people who live with them :D ) .

 

1891767119__.jpg

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I think you need to remember what your OP question was: “SHOULD I keep my Border Collie” – not “How can I live with my border collie puppy” or “How can I keep my sanity with 3 toddlers and a puppy” or “What can I do to get my puppy to behave.” You asked if you should keep it, and people answered that. Some felt you should; some felt you shouldn’t. I really didn’t think it was harsh – just realistic.

 

My two cents: your 13 week puppy is exhibiting behavior that many puppies do when introduced into a pack of littermates, not just border collies. Your puppy sees your kids as littermates; playmates….and he is playing with them like a puppy. Now it is up to you to correct that situation. As far as the puppy not being able to walk to the park cause she’s horrible on leash…well, they’re all horrible on leash until you train them. Your puppy seems like a normal, typical puppy to me.

 

Hopefully you are up to the task of raising very young children and putting a lot of time into puppy training. If you really want it to work, you can make it work. We all know because we’ve all been there/done that.

 

Personally, I think my number two question is more appropriate: “How can I keep my sanity with 3 toddlers and a puppy?” :rolleyes: The answer, of course, is patience, education, and A GOOD SENSE OF HUMOR (oh, you’ll need that one!!) I remember those days sooooo well.

 

If you’re in over your head, admit it and correct the situation. However, if you’re up for the task…meet it head on and educate yourself: books, articles, training classes. I think everyone here will tell you that it’s well worth it. :D

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bsms99 - I would never allow my dog in a situation that he felt he had to gnash his teeth in any direction about a child. That behavior in canine is equivilent of the a human pulling their fist back to punch. In dog this says clearly "next step is BITE". Dogs don't give idle threats. It might not be today, it might be never, but I wouldn't chance it.

 

I think we are the only species on the planet who takes an infant predator and put it with our own infants as a playmate. And then walk away and expect them to "grow up together" without incident! What's up with that? We think chimps are the lesser intelligence but you never catch them down at the Jungle PetStore buying a wolf puppy to play with their baby. And they sure don't toss their baby out with the wolf puppy to play in the yard while they cook dinner!

 

If its ok for you kids to discipline the dogs like "another dog would" (my quotes, from what you wrote), then its ok when the other dog gets big enough to pin your kid by the throat right? Because that's how dogs who get really irritated tell each other to "knock it the heck off"

 

Kids need to play with kids. Puppies need to play with puppies. Grown ups need to buy puppies for themselves, then raise the puppy themselves to be a good adult dog. The kids can enjoy many parts of the process and have a great time doing it. They just can't be in charge. They can't be the unsupervised playmate. Not enough you want some semblance of a guarantee of keeping everyone safe and growing up with positive feelings and habits towards the other species.

 

I think the original poster is a nice person who's in over their head. If she (he?) had already raised an active puppy in the past it might have worked with some help. But learn how, at the same time you manage 3 kids under 5? No way. Not if you want to do any of them justice.

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adpatto, I don't really think you should take what people are saying as an insult. If you searched the boards, you would see how many times this subject comes up and how often young dogs that were supposed to be a good idea end up in shelters, or worse. I just think most people here are extremely passionate about this breed. Honestly, that's the way it should be. If there was no passion for these dogs, they'd only exist in the conformation ring and what we love about them would be gone. Really, 3 kids under 5 AND a puppy is one hell of an undertaking for anyone! It will be a lot of work and you will fail if you don't keep on it all the time. That is why there is so much concern. I wouldn't get totally turned off from this site, it will be a life saver if you keep the dog.

 

Oh and I second any book by Patricia McConnell.

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...As children we were *never* allowed to punish a pet...and personally I wouldn't leave kids under 9 or so alone with a pet anyway--for both of their safety.

And you and others are certainly welcome to that approach. All of us base our ideas on our experiences, and what has worked well for us in the past.

 

I grew up spending more hours with dogs than people - which is still my preference! I was expected to be in charge of our dogs. Of course, I'm not talking about a dog with serious issues. If had had gone to my parents to complain about a dog nipping, the response would have been "What did you do to cause it?" followed by "What are you going to do to stop it?" The idea that I would need help to stop a dog from nipping probably never occurred to my parents.

 

My kids grew up around dogs and puppies as well. Leila was the main canine influence on them. When they complained about Leila, my response was, "What did you do to cause it?" followed by "What are you going to do to stop it?" Like my parents, I talked it over with the kids and then let them deal with it.

 

When our 3 year old granddaughter came crying because Rusty knocked her down, my daughter checked for any injuries (none), then it was, "What did you do to cause it?" followed by "What are you going to do to stop it?" She was running away from Rusty, and when he caught up to her (he's built like a tank), he knocked her down. So the lesson was 'Don't run away from dogs. They're faster, and it hurts to get knocked down.' And our granddaughter adores Rusty, and has offered to trade their dog Chip for Rusty.

 

A family has to decide what their comfort level is. I expected my kids to get hurt growing up, just as I did. So far, only one broken bone between 3 kids, knock on wood. I expect them to interact with dogs, and learn how to deal with a dog who plays too rough (very different from a mean dog).

 

Others prefer less risk. But the OP was asking for help in training a puppy, not advice on how to live her life or to be told she can't handle a puppy and kids at the same time. I gave advice based on what had worked for me. It is her job to decide if she should take it. Others advised obedience classes. Her choice as well. But I'm amazed at how folks who would NEVER give up on a dog responded by giving up on an adult woman!

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I just wanted to add for adpatto, if you don't already know...

 

If you do decide to keep the puppy to make sure and crate train (I know everyone already said this), but I wanted to send a link on how to go about it....definitely don't just put the puppy in the crate and close it up so you can have peace and quiet with your kids. Also never use it as punishment. Crate training should always be positive! Make it fun. Crate training is a task that takes lots of time and patience (especially before you can close the door and leave the puppy alone).

 

http://www.inch.com/~dogs/cratetraining.html

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"bsms99 - I would never allow my dog in a situation that he felt he had to gnash his teeth in any direction about a child. That behavior in canine is equivilent of the a human pulling their fist back to punch. In dog this says clearly "next step is BITE". Dogs don't give idle threats. It might not be today, it might be never, but I wouldn't chance it."

 

It wasn't a threat, it was frustration. How do I know? Because in 12+ years, there was NEVER a bite.

"I think we are the only species on the planet who takes an infant predator and put it with our own infants as a playmate. And then walk away and expect them to "grow up together" without incident! What's up with that? We think chimps are the lesser intelligence but you never catch them down at the Jungle PetStore buying a wolf puppy to play with their baby. And they sure don't toss their baby out with the wolf puppy to play in the yard while they cook dinner!"

 

Dogs aren't wolves. Look at the pics on my website of Leila with Faith. I wouldn't trust my kids (or me) with a wolf. A Border Collie I've known for years is different.

 

"If its ok for you kids to discipline the dogs like "another dog would" (my quotes, from what you wrote), then its ok when the other dog gets big enough to pin your kid by the throat right? Because that's how dogs who get really irritated tell each other to "knock it the heck off"

 

Actually, I think that is how a dog who thinks it is fighting for its life behaves. I wouldn't let my kids play with a dog that had serious issues. I've known some, and I wouldn't deal with them either. And since none of my kids were ever hurt by a dog (other than knocked down during play), I guess the puppy had no problem either. If the human response is seen as appropriate and measured, the dog does fine. Chris the dog was still alive when we had our older 2 kids. At 100+ pounds and uncommonly powerful for his size, he could have killed either without difficulty. Of course, Chris being Chris, he would much rather have given his life to protect them.

 

"Kids need to play with kids. Puppies need to play with puppies. Grown ups need to buy puppies for themselves, then raise the puppy themselves to be a good adult dog. The kids can enjoy many parts of the process and have a great time doing it. They just can't be in charge. They can't be the unsupervised playmate. Not enough you want some semblance of a guarantee of keeping everyone safe and growing up with positive feelings and habits towards the other species."

 

Again - it worked for me. It worked for my kids. Frankly, I've never met a family where it didn't work. Maybe that is a problem with rescue work - you see the failures, not the successes. I have never met a kid who couldn't successfully play with a puppy or adult dog. A FEW have needed a bit of time, IF they had no prior experience with dogs. But dogs and puppies and kids go together just fine, in all of my experience.

 

"I think the original poster is a nice person who's in over their head. If she (he?) had already raised an active puppy in the past it might have worked with some help. But learn how, at the same time you manage 3 kids under 5? No way. Not if you want to do any of them justice."

 

Guess we'll just disagree. I've seen it done too many times to think otherwise.

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"I am actually shocked by how mean people on this site were in response to my question"

 

What kind of answer did you expect?

 

The dog has been alive 3 whole months and you clearly don't have the time to control toddler-pup exposure or know how to do so.

 

You bought a dog from the Amish. How smart was that? They are big time millers and not notably caring even if they do work the parents.

 

If you return the pup, chances are they will take it out on the pup.

 

Studies may rave about border collie intelligence; human intelligence when buying one is something else again.

 

You now have a responsibility to your puppy. Educate yourself. Buck up buckaroo.

 

Penny Tose

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QUOTE(Debbie Meier @ Mar 19 2009, 03:18 PM)

Question for you, how did you expect this puppy to behaive? And when this puppy deviated from the expectation what did you do about it? Also, are you expecting to much thinking that the puppy will behaive within your expectations without guidence? To have a dog is to be a dog trainer, just like to have children is to be a parent, you can't decide to train only when convienent much the same as you can't parent only when it convienent.

 

I'm not trying to be tough or mean, just trying to get you to think a little bit about your situation.

 

Deb

 

 

I am really taken aback w/ your comments and very hopeful that you don't have very many people come to you for dog advice!! I didn't expect my dog to be perfect I just expected my children to enjoy their pet a little more than they have. When the puppy deviated I came to this site for advice and what I got was your harsh response which was not helpful in the least!! I don't need your comments to get me to think about the situation, obviously I thought about it which is what prompted me to search for help. Unfortunately I got your response and was very turned off by what seems to be an otherwise helpful site.

 

Now that your angry, ticked off and disappointed, I did not ask the questions to cast judgement on you, I asked so that you would ask yourself to help you decide whether or not you should keep your pup. We have all the answers to our training problems, if we don't like what we see, we stop it, by stopping the action you prevent the dog from turning it into a bad habit. Your original post was asking if you should keep your border collie, I can't answer that question, only you can. I can point out that you need to be a dog trainer all the time and compare it to parenting, I did not do it to question your parenting, I made the comparison in hopes that it would make sense to you, so that you can decide whether or not you have the time or ability to be a full time dog trainer. Going to an obedience class does not fix the problems you have, it's not about teaching the puppy to sit, stay or lie down when told, it's about teaching the puppy the proper way to behaive, to be considerate of you and your family and to look to you for direction, at this point it appears that you are letting the puppy behaive however it sees fit, right there is the first thing you need to change, the teaching begins the moment the puppy is picked up and taken home with you. Subtle shaping of behaivors so that the puppy is shaped into the puppy that you envisioned, right now she is just a shapeless piece of clay, your the one that decides if the shape of sculpture is directed by you and ends up as specimin of beauty or if you let it control its own shape, by letting her shape herself you will find yourself left dealing with whatever she opted to be.

 

If you want to hear what I really think, I think you should rehome your puppy now before your children become either attached or scared of the dog. Also, this allows the pup to go to a new home before habits are set and turned into unreversable or difficult to retrain behaivioral issues.

 

I'm sorry that you were turned off by my post, but I can't tell you what you want to hear.

 

Deb

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Glad you are on here and asking questions

 

One thing I have learnt about the collie type is that they are all different - mainly smart but appart from that there is big differences

 

My boy seemed to be almost like a blank book, I had to train every little thing - fetch, toy play, liking food, liking being petted

but I spent time and money on him and now people say "oh but Ben was just easy"in response to how good he is now (and he still has lots of problems - we just mannage them)

 

You have another baby, but this time the baby is v mobile and has teeth

Limit exposure to the kids and train one kid at a time with the dog - how to react with each other

If pup becomes overexcited then just give her a time out in another room or in a crate till she calms down, they are smart, she will soon realise that nipping ends play

 

Teach fetch - praise her lots for running after the ball, then next time wait a sec longer before praising to see if she offers anything more - Mia is learning to fetch that way

With Ben once he was up to the ball I turned and ran away - he snatched up the ball and ran after me

 

Personaly I wouldnt teach children to punnish dogs in any way - that is the parents job, just as I wouldnt expect a dog to punnish a child, both should feel confident that YOU are incharge of the interactions

 

Only YOU know if you have the time and energy for another baby in the house, good luck with whatever you decide

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I hope you are nicer to your dog than you were to me! your response was definitely a deterrent to using this site again for help!

 

Your topic is "should I keep my dog". Not "I'm keeping my dog", but "SHOULD I keep my dog". You were told politely by many people either to rehome your dog, or to spend the time to train her. Many gave helpful advice on exactly how to train your dog.

 

Yeah, heck with this site! No one helps!

 

Let's be a bit more mature about this, myself included. This isn't grade school, we're all adults, giving polite, but honest advice. No need for being rude, adpatto.

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I once owned an australian cattle dog that as a puppy was totally in to nipping and chasing my young nieces. So I had to do some serious training of both nieces and puppy. I worked hard on teaching the puppy basic commands and I also engaged by young nieces who were 4 and 6 at the time. We worked with treats and I had puppy on a lead. The kids taught the puppy to sit for them and learnt to stand still if puppy chased and tried to nip. They stopped everything if the puppy became overly excited with barking and nipping and we also crate trained the puppy. We also learned to redirect puppy with toys. I always supervised the puppy around them.

 

Eventually we worked through the problem and the kids were great and they now have their own dogs (whippets) that they love to train.

 

Look it is going to be hard work but puppies always are in the beginning, some more than others. Do you have a puppy socialisation class where you live. We hold them at our local dog club and sometimes the vets hold them. We often have some totaly over the top puppies with all breeds represented. The worst I ever saw was a beagle puppy but fortunately the kids were older.

 

A 13 week puppy is probably going to be horrible on a lead. The pups that come to our obedience classes our always lunging and plunging in the beginning but usually after a few weeks and lots of owner input between classes they are doing great. To get the dog you are dreaming of takes training, it is just the way of youngsters, human and canine.

 

In retrospect a nice older rescue dog would probably have been a better choice but you can work with what you have if you decised that you have the time and energy. One thing about the BC is that they are very responsive to training.

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I hope you are nicer to your dog than you were to me! your response was definitely a deterrent to using this site again for help!

 

Now i remember again why i don't post in these sections.

 

Adpatto, i'm pretty sure i can whup you if you want to start comparing how nice we are to our dogs....

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Your topic is "should I keep my dog". Not "I'm keeping my dog", but "SHOULD I keep my dog". You were told politely by many people either to rehome your dog, or to spend the time to train her. Many gave helpful advice on exactly how to train your dog.

 

Yeah, heck with this site! No one helps!

 

Let's be a bit more mature about this, myself included. This isn't grade school, we're all adults, giving polite, but honest advice. No need for being rude, adpatto.

You think ADPATTO is being rude?! WOW!

 

I think a lot of folks have judged her without trying to find out any more about her family or situation. A significant number have suggested Border Collie puppies and kids just don't mix. Period. And quite a few posts have jumped in her chili with both boots on!

 

But SHE is the one being rude...amazing.

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WOW -- Everyones got the boxing gloves on !!! You know - I jumped a few weeks ago on Sue Deutscher - I am sorry for that by the way =( over a post I had done. IT is difficult to understand human communication/interpretation through emails, boards, text messages etc. Please understand that people on here (98%) are here to help and offer advice and help. Sometimes that advice may seem harsh or abrasive, but thats what makes these boards so great. It would be nice to have all sunshine and roses for responses, but some people will be quite upfrant and brutally honest. You kind of have to respect that and take it as constructive critism, We may not be happy for the answer, but then again it can't always be good.

 

As far as your bite and kids problem - I brought my BC home @ 7 weeks and I have a 4 y/o girl. The two were not a good mix at first. They both needed "training" so that they could both live in our perfect harmony world. With Kaycee @ 6 mo old now her bitting has stopped and we have allowed our daughter to participate in 100% of Kaycees training. This way the dog respects both her and us when commands are given. I will admit - this task has NOT BEEN EASY!!!! But as someone posted earlier - you have to teach all the time - just as you would for your child. And with that the Daughter was being "taught all the time @ the same time" We have had many frustrating times with both kid and dog, but it does get better. We did attend a formal "puppy class" which has help ALOT!!! well worth the expense, especially with a good trainer. Here's a link the trainer sent me regarding children etc and dogs.. http://www.doggonesafe.com/ Hope this helps a little and good luck with your endevors....

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OP, Adaptto, you came and asked a rather pointed question and you don't like the answers? Maybe you don't like them because they are truthful. You didn't ask for help, didn't ask for guidance, and didn’t ask for training suggestions. All of which have been given to you. What you also didn't say was how long you've had your pup. Coming from the Amish, big time puppy millers IMO, I would guess you got her "very young" say maybe 6 weeks of age? If so, you could also be facing other issues that you are not aware of. So, instead of becoming defensive when you hear the truth, give some background - very detailed and you might be pleased with the answers you get. To answer your original question though - No, you should not keep your puppy based on the little bit of information you provided and the reactions you have exhibited.

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You are getting mostly very good advice here (I with those who do not hold with letting children physically punish/correct dogs). Some of the advice is to the point, even blunt but please don't let that keep you from all the knowledge people are sharing. When we feel as strongly about something as we do about Border Collies, we can speak very forcefully but with the best intentions.

 

Only you can say if you should give up your puppy. I do think Border Collies and kids can mix, but it may take more work than with another breed. Lots of Border Collies live very happy lives as pets. It is not anything close to cruel as long as they are given enough time, attention, exercise and mental stimulation. And that is where I would caution you. I personally consider Border Collies a labor intensive breed compared to many other types of dogs. They give back more than you put in, but you do need to put time and effort into them. With three kids, that may be more than you can do and still keep your sanity. I know it is more than I could do without wanting to tear my hair out. There is a reason you see so many Border Collies in rescue, especially when they hit their teens. They just aren't a good fit for many people. Of course, you see all kinds of dogs in rescue because dogs in general and puppies in specific require lots of time and energy that some folks, especially those busy with kids just don't have.

 

If you do decide to keep your pup, I second the recommendation of getting a crate. And lots of careful supervision with the kids. And lots of eduction and training for youngsters of both species. :D Border Collie puppies seem to range from fairly angelic to the Devil. Quinn was the Devil until he hit about 5 months old, at which point he became wonderful (though not quite angelic). Your post brought back less than happy memories of my first several weeks with him. It took a while to find a routine of play, free time, down time, and exercise that worked for us. But once I did, that routine helped a lot. Training is essential and ongoing. It will teach her manners, exercise her active brain and help you two bond.

 

I know you are giving this a lot of thought. One thing to consider is giving up a puppy or dog becomes harder the longer you've had her. The main thing that kept me from sending Quinn back to his breeder those first few weeks was pride. I didn't want to admit I couldn't handle the breed. That is a truly rotten reason to keep a puppy but my point is a few months later I was crazy about him and giving him up would have been heart wrenching.

 

I think the fact you came here with questions shows that you want what is best for your puppy. But that doesn't make this kind of decision any easier. :rolleyes:

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So, to respond to your original question; "should I keep my Border Collie puppy"? You have two options:

 

1) Keep the pup. IF you are fully prepared to take on yet another small "child" who needs CONSTANT and CONSISTENT management and training in order to become a decent citizen. That means doing many of the things already suggested by others as far as not letting the pup be with the kids unsupervised, working with both children and the pup so that they understand how to interact with each other, crate training, and so on.

 

2) Rehome or return the pup ASAP, while it is still trainable by someone else who has the time and energy to do so.

 

If you choose Option 1, you have a long, hard road ahead of you (not one that I would choose with 3 very young children in the house already). If you choose option 2, it is by no means any kind of statement that you are "bad" or whatever; it just means that this is not the optimum time to take on yet another small being who needs a boatload of coaching and training to understand how to "be."

 

A

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Journey is right about the question you asked and the responses being based on the information you gave. You are obviously feeling overwhelmed which is understandable.

 

The picture you painted was that you had an image in your mind of the what a BC was going to be and have projected that onto a 13 week old puppy, combine this with 3 young children under 5 and thus the opinions you recieved.

 

Given the advice and opinions hopefully you can work your way through your question, because none of us know the specifics of the situation or you and your family or the character, breeding or temperament of puppy for that matter.

 

One thing I know about puppies is that you can often plan on a good 18 months of initial training and work with the whole family involved. Only you can answer if you are up for what is required. My BC pup showed no interest in retrieving a ball till she was about 12 months old and now she is a maniac for her ball.

 

I have seen plenty of farm bred working BCs make fine pets, but there is always plenty of training involved.

 

The rewards are high but I can understand in your situation that it is going to be challenging. Is this your first pup?

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