Barbie and Ken

[Eileen Stein]

Suppose you aren't trying to breed for the greatest racehorse, only good working stock? I had a blue merle Border Collie bred in England by a guy who bred his pups for work on the local farms. He also liked merles, so he bred Border Collie merles. My point is not to defend breeding for color, but to point out that you can breed good working dogs AND get color as well IF you are shooting for average-above average working dogs.

 

Well, it's true that if you breed for working ability plus some other extraneous factor, you will get better working dogs than if you had not included working ability in your criteria, but worse working dogs than if you had not included the extraneous factor in your criteria. The more extraneous factors you include, the faster your working ability will diminish. But even if you introduce only one extraneous criterion, your working ability will gradually, over time, diminish more and more compared to the person who is breeding only for working ability, all other factors being equal.

 

Does it matter? Is mediocre "good enough"? Well, there are some jobs (human AND canine) where it probably would be, but where the job is a complex and difficult one, and the quality of the work makes a big difference to the workload and income of the decisionmaker, I wouldn't expect many to settle for just okay. Certainly the hill shepherds who developed the border collie to do a really difficult job didn't compromise by breeding for things other than working ability. Maybe a farmer who wasn't committed to improving the breed and didn't need a lot from his dogs (a dairy farmer perhaps, whose cows know the routine and are only too happy to come along to the parlor at milking time and go out to pasture afterwards) might go for good enough. (Just to be clear, I'm not saying that your Oxfordshire farmer was a dairy farmer -- I'm not in a position to know anything about him, or about your dog.) But if a farmer has had a really good working dog, they usually are so appreciative of how much it improves their working situation that they will want to strive for the best again. I know of only one serious working dog breeder in the UK who breeds for merle coloration as well (your farmer would make two), and I know of only one in the US -- that's a pretty small percentage. It's sort of like multiflora rose -- it looks and smells lovely when it flowers, but you'd go a long way before you'd find a serious farmer who was happy to have it in his pasture, because it diminishes the quality he cares about.

 

In the case of breeding for merles, you'd have the advantage that one parent of every litter would have to be a non-merle, and so the extraneous characteristic would theoretically have only half the impact on your breeding program as selecting for most extraneous factors would. But on the other hand merles are such a tiny percentage of working border collies that your range of choice for the merle parent would be very limited. And then there's the increased likelihood (albeit small) of getting deaf puppies or other health issues. It's just something that very few breeders who care about maintaining and improving working ability in the breed would do, but then again, since few of them would do it, it's not much of a threat to the breed either IMO.

[IronHorse]

The term makes a distinction that cries out to be made. It has even been accepted and used by a lot of conformation folks (though some of them deplore it, others have adopted it), and has been used by conformation folks on our Boards. But Iron Horse's statement that the Barbie Collie definition "has spilled over to alot of ppl who since its coinage have included the bred for color dogs in what they concider the Barbie Collie group" is simply not true. I challenge him to show me one reference anywhere, other than his own post here, where a merle BC from working bloodlines and not bred for conformation has been referred to as a Barbie Collie. I have also never heard a working dog person refer to a working-bred dog as a Barbie Collie, except perhaps in a joking way to take note of how it happened to look like the show dogs (or perhaps was as useless as a show dog) -- much as some of my friends used to refer to my old Spot dog, who happened to be big and fluffy with regular markings, as "CH Shady Side's Spotlight On Ewe" to get my goat.

 

I stand corrected, My merle is not a Barbie Collie nor shall i refer to her as one from now on.

She is a just a tri merle Border Collie.

[IronHorse]

Well, do you? And if so, in what way (e.g., what kind of stock, who owns it, how often, to do what)? To what level are they trained, and who trained them?

 

Yes I do.

What kind of stock? Cattle

Who owns it? I do

How often? Varies according to what i am needing to do with the cattle but generally I would say on a weekly basis sometimes more,sometimes less.

To do what? To help move the cattle to where I want them.

To what level are they trained? Efficiently enough to get the job done.

Who trained them? I did

 

 

 

If you mean legal right, you don't need to defend that right because no one has denied that they have such a right.

Yes by the definition of a legal right is what I mean.

Although no one has denied the legal right outright the implication is made often IMO by the use of the terms moral and ethical right.

My intention is to point out that there is a legal right as well.

[bsms99]

...Does it matter? Is mediocre "good enough"? Well, there are some jobs (human AND canine) where it probably would be, but where the job is a complex and difficult one, and the quality of the work makes a big difference to the workload and income of the decisionmaker, I wouldn't expect many to settle for just okay....

(Just to be clear, I'm not saying that your Oxfordshire farmer was a dairy farmer -- I'm not in a position to know anything about him, or about your dog.) But if a farmer has had a really good working dog, they usually are so appreciative of how much it improves their working situation that they will want to strive for the best again...

In the case of breeding for merles, you'd have the advantage that one parent of every litter would have to be a non-merle, and so the extraneous characteristic would theoretically have only half the impact on your breeding program as selecting for most extraneous factors would...It's just something that very few breeders who care about maintaining and improving working ability in the breed would do, but then again, since few of them would do it, it's not much of a threat to the breed either IMO.

The farmer had sheep, but the rolling hills north of Oxford are NOTHING like the Highlands! I'm pretty sure he was NOT worried about the Border Collie as a breed, since most of his dogs were sold without papers (it was 75 GBP without, 125 with). My guess is he happened to have a merle bitch he liked, and bred her because his friends knew her and wanted pups from her. If you have a merle bitch you think is worth breeding, then your program is pretty much unlimited by color for the stud. You can just pick a stud based on work.

 

I have no idea how he did it. I'm not holding him up as a model for anyone to follow. The folks selling merles in the US, based on the websites I've seen, are mostly scary. I didn't see any that seemed to care a rat's rear end about working ability.

 

I guess my main point is that there is a market for what? Medium quality dogs? How good does a dog need to be to merit breeding? Top 10% Top 25% Is the Top 50% good enough? Since I won't be breeding dogs, it is an academic point for me - but one that interests me. And how do you tell how good a dog is? Trials? But trials are designed for a specific scenario. What do you do if you hire a sheepherder, who may or may not know a lot about dogs?

 

I read here to find out what people think. I'm not qualified to have an opinion...I'm just interested in how breeders do what they do.

[IronHorse]

"Because by definition a domesticated dog is simpy that ( a head of stock)."

 

I'm not at all sure that dogs are considered livestock in terms of rights, privileges, etc. I have a hazy recollection that canines are not considered livestock in either most state statutes or general common law on the subject. Does anyone familiar with ag law know?

 

Penny

 

The term "livestock" is nebulous and may be defined narrowly or broadly. On a broader view, livestock refers to any breed or population of animal kept by humans for a useful, commercial purpose. This can mean domestic animals, semi-domestic animals, or captive wild animals. Semi-domesticated refers to animals which are only lightly domesticated or of disputed status. These populations may also be in the process of domestication. Some people may use the term livestock to refer just to domestic animals or even just to red meat animals.

In the definition given in this link http://definitions.uslegal.com/l/livestock/ I believe one must take into concideration the word "usually" which I would view as a provisory term.

[Eileen Stein]

If you mean legal right, you don't need to defend that right because no one has denied that they have such a right.

 

Yes by the definition of a legal right is what I mean.

Although no one has denied the legal right outright the implication is made often IMO by the use of the terms moral and ethical right.

My intention is to point out that there is a legal right as well.

 

I don't understand. Is it your position that it is morally and ethically right to breed border collies for profit without regard to working ability, and that there is a legal right to do so as well? That's what you seem to be saying here. Or are you speaking only about a legal right, and therefore defending a right that no one has disputed?

 

Thanks for answering my questions about working your dogs. How many head of cattle do you have, and what is the nature of your operation?

[ness_bc]

I own two "barbie collies". Suits my lifestyle and I don't really mind. First was bought as a pet by my parents. Second one from a different breeder. I picked a breeder who I admire and respect and who actually put together a very nice post on one of the boards regarding the BC show conformation wars. They are both lovely pets and do agility and obedience. The youngster's mum has done some preliminary herding but only ANKC herding and that wasn't one of the things that attracted me to them. I have put her on stock as something to try but we aren't serious about it.

 

Unless you really know your dogs its not as easy to come by a well bred working line BC and besides that isn't what I was looking for.

 

Prepared to be flamed but I have no problems with either of my two barbie collies. I love them to bits and they are thoroughly spoiled and pampered.

[PennyT]

Prepared to be flamed but I have no problems with either of my two barbie collies. I love them to bits and they are thoroughly spoiled and pampered.

 

Nobody is going to flame you because some jerks in the United States wanted to show in conformation and imported dogs from your country. We know that's not your fault.

 

Penny

[Lenajo]

I personally have a weak spot for hound headed black and tans with sparce coats prone to cowlicks and just enough white to make the public suspect the are at least a Border Collie cross.

 

 

Hey. Best looking Border Collie ever - split face and floppy ears! OK... maybe I am biased... just a tad.... hmmm... Ohh, and make him big. Not a tiny whimpy 25 lb dog

:D

[bcnewe2]

Ironhorse

I thought your Jazmine came from the breeder that you helped close down? Which dog was that?

 

 

I've got a great friend with barbies, she tries her best to work and train them on stock. she's been doing this since I've known her (over 5 years). Still can't get anywhere beyond started. She tries, and tries. She loves her dogs and they are like nieces and nephews to me but I wouldn't want to count on them to do anything on the farm. After all this time, she is finally ready to make the switch. She won't "cull" her barbies but she is now looking for that special "working bred" dog. Took a long time for her to begin understand that her dogs don't have what my dogs do, it's just not part of the package. She kept confusing it with her training. It's so hard to understand when your standing on their side of the fence. They just don't seem to get it at all. Think we're all nuts that don't konw what we're talking about.

I've come to at least understand that I'm not going to change the world of barbie owners out there but my goal is to do it one person at a time.

Again.....saying it for the billionth time.....it's not a crime to have a barbie, they are wonderful dogs, just PLEASE don't compare it to mine or other working dogs and PLEASE PLEASE don't breed.

off my box now

[IronHorse]

I don't understand. Is it your position that it is morally and ethically right to breed border collies for profit without regard to working ability, and that there is a legal right to do so as well? That's what you seem to be saying here. Or are you speaking only about a legal right, and therefore defending a right that no one has disputed?

The short answer (and the only reason I would express it is the fact that you specifically have asked for it) is yes.My personal opinion is that as long as a breeder is not being deceptive and is breeding with reverence to the animal while operating within the legal confine of the laws governing such pratice then I have no problem with it.

I have yet to see an argument that such a breeder would in any fasion threaten the breeding philosophy of the USBCC.

 

 

Thanks for answering my questions about working your dogs. How many head of cattle do you have, and what is the nature of your operation?

As of this morning my head count stands at 157 (I expect that to change during the course of the day however)

If I am understanding your question correctly then the answer to the nature of my operation is, Beef production.

[IronHorse]

Kristen;

Ironhorse

I thought your Jazmine came from the breeder that you helped close down? Which dog was that?

 

You are correct that Jazmine came from that paticular breeder.

Actually all 3 of my dogs came from her.

My reasons for assisting in shutting her kennel down was not that I felt she was breeding inferior dogs.My reasons were the fact that she was useing deceptive sales tactics, operating illegally, irresponsibly and without what I concider reverence for the animals she had in her possession.

[BustopherJones]

You all own working dogs.

Not all of us. True, Annie will probably be trained as a SAR dog once (if?) I can afford to retire; but for now, she is a family pet, and a companion. With that said, Annie does come from a line of Agility and SAR dogs; so I would definitely not classify her as a Barbie Collie.

[Sue R]

is breeding with reverence to the animal...I have yet to see an argument that such a breeder would in any fasion threaten the breeding philosophy of the USBCC.

Ah, but I feel that if a breeder is not breeding with reverence for the *breed*, then they are breeding contrary to the philosophy of the USBCC. By reverence for the breed, I am refering to breeding wisely for working abilities. One can breed reveently with regard to the individual animal, but that still doesn't make the choice responsible to the breed or to the dog population at large.

 

Of course, there is nothing to stop anyone for breeding for whatever they chose, within the confines of the law, but that doesn't make their choice ethical or beneficial. This is not aimed at IronHorse or anyone in particular, just those to whom it may apply.

[Eileen Stein]

I guess my main point is that there is a market for what? Medium quality dogs? How good does a dog need to be to merit breeding? Top 10% Top 25% Is the Top 50% good enough? Since I won't be breeding dogs, it is an academic point for me - but one that interests me. And how do you tell how good a dog is? Trials? But trials are designed for a specific scenario. What do you do if you hire a sheepherder, who may or may not know a lot about dogs?

 

Bob, I understand what you're saying. There's no doubt there are lots of farmers who want a good solid dog and who breed to get it, without trying to breed the best stockdog who ever lived. They wouldn't go far afield to find a stud if there was an adequate one nearby, and if there were things they liked about ole Meg they'd probably breed her even if she had some weaknesses when it came to work, and try to improve her offspring with a better stud. That doesn't bother me at all. First, it builds up a good pool of what Denise Wall calls the orange circle dogs. And second, this kind of breeder is constantly being pushed toward breeding good workers and away from breeding bad workers simply because they truly benefit from having good dogs to rely on and not having inferior dogs to rely on. It makes me a little more nervous when a separate criterion, like color, is introduced, because that is going to mean that you can't just take the best of the ones available, but have to pass them through a second filter. But in the case you describe, it wouldn't really trouble me. I agree with you that nearly all the breeders-for-merle you see on the web are a sad lot, and this tends to give merles an undeserved bad name.

 

As for what dogs should be bred, most people would not express it by percentage (although some would, and those who do tend to specify a very low top percentage). Most good breeders are looking for a complex of traits, and there would be widespread agreement about most of them, with some variation at the margins because of their particular situation. They would not breed the dog unless it embodied these traits to a high degree, or possibly if it was lacking in one and they had good reason to believe that a particular mating would remedy that lack in the offspring. Obviously from what I'm saying here, breeding is an art more than a science, and to produce good working dogs the breeder must be very experienced with livestock and with working dogs, or be working under the mentorship of someone who is. I realize the un-quantifiability of good breeding is frustrating to the newcomer, but that's just the way it is.

 

As for how you tell how good a dog is, trials -- the more challenging the better -- are extremely valuable. They enable you to see different dogs coping with essentially the same demanding challenges, and appraise the quality of their work. It's not necessarily who won or placed high in the trial -- although a dog who consistently places high in demanding trials needs to be a high quality dog -- but what you can see by watching them do the work. The ISDS-type trial is designed to test most capabilities a sheepdog needs in a more difficult form than they would likely meet at home, and the introduction of trials led to a big step forward in the quality of working border collies. But there are some things you can't fully assess in a trial -- stamina, for example -- and for those things you would also want to see the dog putting in a day's work on farm, ranch or hill.

 

This is a difficult topic to get a handle on, but I hope this helps a little.

[Brandon M]

I have a working bred BC and a Barbie Collie. Lance, my Barbie Collie, is hopeless with livestock. We took him to a trainer for testing 3 times and there's no reason to pursue it further with him. He is an extremely intelligent dog though. Smarter than Mick who is purely working bred, so I don't know about the statements that breeding for conformation breeds the "smarts" out of the dog. Lance also will "eye" and stalk just like a working dog, but has no natural outrun or other sheepdog traits. Lance is excelling in his SAR training. And out of all the dogs I've had he is by far the best companion dog.

 

When I got Lance I wasn't aware that there was a difference between normal working bred BCs and AKC BCs. I just thought I was buying a good looking BC. This forum taught me a lot and I would never support conformation breeding again. I wouldn't trade Lance for any dog on Earth though. Except maybe Ouzo. j/k

[Sue R]

Your two dogs definitely (on appearance) are from different ends of the spectrum! Lance is all handsome and Mick shows the marvelous variability of the working-bred Border Collie.

 

While Lance may truly be the more intelligent dog, it is also easy to confuse biddability with intelligence. We once had two dogs, a Red Bone Coonhound and an Airedale Terrier. Most people would have readily said that the hound was stupid and the terrier was smart. That was not the case - the hound was very intelligent but extremely independent and not biddable, and the Airedale was not terribly smart but was extremely biddable. That made the Airedale very trainable and the hound couldn't care less.

 

The more I live with and work with dogs and other animals, and read about them, the less I am convinced I know and understand, and the more I realize I have so much to learn.

 

Your post also illustrates one of the opportunities that the USBCC boards have had to educate. Thanks for listening!

[Eileen Stein]

As of this morning my head count stands at 157 (I expect that to change during the course of the day however)

If I am understanding your question correctly then the answer to the nature of my operation is, Beef production.

 

IronHorse, you rogue! More than 1,000 posts, and never once before this thread have you mentioned owning cattle. Even when you were telling about your pet bison and your emus, and raising so many kinds of smaller poultry/fowl, and having cattle rancher friends, and raw-feeding white-tailed deer and wild turkeys, and thinking of keeping some rabbits for food because your "goal is to get both ourselfs and our dogs away from as much commerically grown beef as possible." Couldn't you have just butchered your own cattle to achieve that goal? Never a word about owning cattle when posting on threads where cattle production was being discussed, and never a word about working your dogs when posting on threads where working dogs was being discussed. You posted lots of nice pictures of your dogs, but not one showing them working, or with cattle. You even said several times (here, for example, post #13) that you don't work your dogs on stock, just to throw us off the track I guess. And now we learn you're running a herd of 157 cattle (maybe more by now), which your dogs work regularly thanks to your training. You sure can keep a secret!

 

Ah, but I feel that if a breeder is not breeding with reverence for the *breed*, then they are breeding contrary to the philosophy of the USBCC. By reverence for the breed, I am refering to breeding wisely for working abilities. One can breed reverently with regard to the individual animal, but that still doesn't make the choice responsible to the breed or to the dog population at large.

 

I totally agree. I'm surprised, IronHorse, that with the reverence you express for the earth, and the forbearance we should have in transforming it to meet our frivolous desires, that you do not feel a little of the same reverence for the border collie breed. It too is a fragile and complex masterpiece, created with much effort and easy to destroy. I'm surprised too that with the concern you've expressed about overbreeding and rescue, that you apparently see no moral and ethical implications in mass breeding. At least, I have to assume that is your view, when you say "as long as a breeder is not being deceptive and is breeding with reverence to the animal while operating within the legal confine of the laws governing such pratice then I have no problem with it."

 

I can understand your not wanting legal rights to be interfered with, but it surprises me that you can't see the moral and ethical concerns in overbreeding and in breeding without recognizing and respecting the essence of the breed.

[Anda]

I wouldn't trade Lance for any dog on Earth though. Except maybe Ouzo. j/k

 

 

Ha! :D

[Pippin's person]

The more I live with and work with dogs and other animals, and read about them, the less I am convinced I know and understand, and the more I realize I have so much to learn.

 

I'd like this on a bumper sticker (and you can send young Dan along with the bumper sticker should you make one.... )

[Sue R]

I'd like this on a bumper sticker (and you can send young Dan along with the bumper sticker should you make one.... )

Not a chance!

[Ooky]

I'd like this on a bumper sticker (and you can send young Dan along with the bumper sticker should you make one.... )

 

Ok, I love Sue's statement too, but if that were a bumper sticker I'd crash into the other person's car trying to read it!

 

Oh, and congrats on Dan! I think the markings on his muzzle are just too cute to be believed!

[1sheepdoggal]

Iron Horse, you rogue! More than 1,000 posts, and never once before this thread have you mentioned owning cattle. Even when you were telling about your pet bison and your emus, and raising so many kinds of smaller poultry/fowl, and having cattle rancher friends, and raw-feeding white-tailed deer and wild turkeys, and thinking of keeping some rabbits because your "goal is to get both ourselfs and our dogs away from as much commerically grown beef as possible." Couldn't you have just butchered your own cattle to achieve that goal? Never a word about owning cattle when posting on threads where cattle production was being discussed, and and never a word about working your dogs on threads where working dogs were being discussed. You posted lots of nice pictures of your dogs, but not one showing them working, or with cattle. You even said several times (here, for example, post #13) that you don't work your dogs on stock, just to throw us off the track I guess. And now we learn you're running a herd of 157 cattle (maybe more by now), which your dogs work regularly thanks to your training. You sure can keep a secret!

 

Ah Eileen, but he did elude to at least one of his dogs being a working mushroom finder!

Which isnt it about time Ironhorse, that dog should be gettin a break from working to go have a little fun and gobble up some shrooms??

I never did find any here last year, but I havent forgotten them, maybe I'll luck out this year. Ive recently found some places deeper in the woods that might yeild a few.

[bsms99]

...While Lance may truly be the more intelligent dog, it is also easy to confuse biddability with intelligence...That was not the case - the hound was very intelligent but extremely independent and not biddable, and the Airedale was not terribly smart but was extremely biddable...

For the first 3 months we owned him, we thought our pound mutt Dan was uncommonly stupid. With time, we realized he is extremely intelligent. He is smart enough to decide on his own what he thinks is best, and that is what he does. The key to getting him to obey is showing him the reason for what you want him to do. You can't TELL him what to do. You have to EXPLAIN it!

 

But I can sleep at night knowing that he's keeping watch. And if something doesn't seem right to him, he WILL wake me up. To date, that includes for a neighbor's house on fire and a rattlesnake in the house. And he's smart enough that in the latter case, he looked at me like, "I found him...YOU deal with him!" And he stayed back and watched...

 

Smart dog.

[bsms99]

Also - completely off topic: I had my trials-bred puppy in for his 4 month shots (a bit late @ 4.5 months). The Vet does dog sports, as does the Vet Tech. They both couldn't get over a Border Collie who sat on the table, wagged his tail gently and didn't get excited. "I've never seen such a calm Border Collie..."

 

They asked if he gets rowdy indoors. I told them his nickname is "Jack the Slipper" because he's fond of sleeping on our feet. (As I type, his front paw is under my foot - quite atypical).

 

Please forgive the shameless boast. I just get a kick out of it when someone says, "A Border Collie? But he's so calm!" I consider that an invitation to talk about working bred Border Collies vs anything else...