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Angel_55

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I brought over two Roy pups that I got from Aled. One is now owned by another member of the board. I still have my Sava. She is a very nice bitch and I love her method of work. When I went over to the UK, I had friends look for a very high caliber pups that I could bring back. I am not disappointed. The dam of the pups is Aled's lines. I like to bring in good lines into my kennels as I don't want to be kennel blind. (Since I think Tess is the most perfect working dog, ever....just ask the husband!!)

 

What is the question/issues on LE? All I know of them is that the ones that I have seen are very hard/heavy grippers.

 

I remember Sava; nice to hear that she is doing ok with you......

Perhaps she is like her mom; Dot is a powerful bitch with a great work ethic (good working cows as well as sheep) and has an endearing and friendly personality.

Dot is a real credit to her dear-father 'Int. Sup. Ch. Roy' (200199).

 

Dot-1.jpg

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I remember Sava; nice to hear that she is doing ok with you......

Perhaps she is like her mom; Dot is a powerful bitch with a great work ethic (good working cows as well as sheep) and has an endearing and friendly personality.

Dot is a real credit to her dear-father 'Int. Sup. Ch. Roy' (200199).

 

Dot-1.jpg

OK - just pack Dot up in a box and send her to me .

 

Laurie

 

PS - Some of ya'll should probably watch what you are typing/insinuating on a public forum - things are sounding a bit slanderous at times.

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Deb

 

Ask Aled who gave Sava the "couch potato gene"...as she loves the couch and snuggling!!....is that from Roy or Dot?

 

Sava is very stylish behind the sheep and off sheep, she is a funny character!!

 

Diane

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[

PS - Some of ya'll should probably watch what you are typing/insinuating on a public forum - things are sounding a bit slanderous at times.

 

What opinions are you regarding as a bit defamatory?

 

You surely cannot believe that Roy is being maligned.

 

Penny

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PS - Some of ya'll should probably watch what you are typing/insinuating on a public forum - things are sounding a bit slanderous at times.

I wonder what I'm missing?

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I wonder what I'm missing?

 

Certainly not talking about Aled Owen or ROY... :rolleyes:

 

and I have no stake in these breeders,

but I see some blanket comments in this thread that could be considered pointedly defamatory, for instance...

 

“RS also inbreed(s) on(e) some horrific temperaments.”

 

“I think you need your head examined to pay their prices at LE and be on a waiting list for dogs esp with some of the negatives in their lines such as seizures and deafness.”

 

“Temperament issues in the Rising Sun lines are prevalent, period.”

 

People might want to watch what they post publicly, that's all.

Laurie

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It isn't slander if it is indeed true and if it isn't true, they'd have to prove it.

 

I'd say they'd both be hard up proving anything said is/was false because of the number of puppies they pump out each year.

 

Katelynn

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FWIW,

 

In law, defamation (also called calumny, libel, slander, and vilification) is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government or nation a negative image. Slander refers to a malicious, false and defamatory spoken statement or report, while libel refers to any other form of communication such as written words or images.

 

Wiki

 

I guess it all hinges on whether or not the claims are false .... no?

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I'm no lawyer, but this is interesting reading...IMHO. An old lawyer once told me that the law says whatever a judge says it says when your case is decided. In my experience, that is good legal advice.

 

From: Besmirching.com

 

Defences to claims of defamation include:

 

* Truth is an absolute defence in the United States as well as in the common law jurisdictions of Canada...

* Statements made in a good faith and reasonable belief that they were true are generally treated the same as true statements; however, the court may inquire into the reasonableness of the belief. The degree of care expected will vary with the nature of the defendant: an ordinary person might safely rely on a single newspaper report, while the newspaper would be expected to carefully check multiple sources...

* Opinion is a defense recognized in nearly every jurisdiction. If the allegedly defamatory assertion is an expression of opinion rather than a statement of fact, defamation claims usually cannot be brought because opinions are inherently not falsifiable...

* Fair comment on a matter of public interest, arguments made with an honest belief in their soundness on a matter of public interest (such as regarding official acts) are defendable against a defamation claim, even if such arguments are logically unsound; if a reasonable person could honestly entertain such an opinion, the statement is protected...

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“Temperament issues in the Rising Sun lines are prevalent, period.”

 

That would be me that wrote that and, since I personally have spoken to upwards of 10 people who own dogs from the line which I was referring to, and own one with "temperament issues" myself, I can certainly back up the statment with fact.

 

 

Best,

Jen

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“RS also inbreeds on some horrific temperaments.”
(spelling error corrected)

 

I've seen a prominent sire they used, for which that kennel publically advertises as part of a "linebreeding" bite a person who interfered with his work.

 

Not heard it, *saw* it.

 

I also got a direct quote from his owner that it took 9 months of training to make him accept handling for the conformation ring.

 

I also personally observed half sister to this dog, same sire,used for breeding in this area, who was so fear aggressive of people that I could not enter the pen while the owner worked her.

 

Can I prove this with video or witness? Nope. You'll just have to take my word for it.

 

Do you need anything else?

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"and I have no stake in these breeders,"

 

Loyalty to a mentor handler/trainer involved with one is a laudable quality.

 

Laurie don't you have a dog by Imp Bill from Rising Sun? Or am I mistaken?

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I'm not Laurie but I do see that she has two dogs listed on her website from her breeding two of her bitches to Imp Bill.

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Just a few words before I close this thread, since I think it's veering off course at this point.

 

People are allowed to discuss breeders on these Boards, both to praise and to criticize. I think it's important for the good of the breed, as well as for the benefit of potential buyers, to provide this service. Without such a forum, there are very few ways for people to learn about breeders they don't know personally, but know only through their websites. I think it's a subject of legitimate public interest and concern.

 

If I have knowledge that something false and defamatory has been posted, I will remove it. Likewise, if an anonymous person posts negatively about a breeder, I will require that person to identify him/herself privately to me; if s/he fails to do so, I will remove the criticism, because I think those who post such material must be prepared to stand behind what they post. Other than that, members are free to post their experiences and their opinions. I have myself posted in disagreement with negative opinions put up about breeders, and others--including the breeders themselves--are welcome to do the same. But IMO to refuse to permit the posting of experiences and opinions regarding particular breeders (unless I know them to contain false information) would be a disservice to the breed and to the public.

 

ETA: I have re-opened this thread to permit Rising Sun Farm to post a response.

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To Whom It May Concern:

 

It has come to our attention that several posts to the BC Boards recently have included questions about our breeding program at Rising Sun Farm. While Becky spends many hours on the PC trying to keep the Rising Sun Farm website current neither of us put any time into chat rooms. It's only when someone e-mails us that we find out about these kinds of things.

 

Our first thought, and may still be the better one, is to ignore these kinds of things. I'm not sure that we will ever be able to satisfy some. We offer candor, common sense, and clarity, with good will to all.

 

It seems impossible to answer all of the charges at a single shot. So, we thought we would do the next best thing. We are willing to entertain all questions to those who wish to call or e-mail us. Wouldn't it be better to go directly to the source than deal with half-truths, innuendo, and lies?

 

Sunlight is said to be the best disinfectant. Our phone number is 651-462-5967. Steve's cell phone is 612-716-4918. Becky's cell phone is 612-270-6890. All are welcome and we are willing to discuss any aspect of our breeding program.

 

We ask one thing only in return. If you make a charge, be prepared to site your source. Give me a name, date and place when a certain incident took place. Our first concern is with our puppy owners, but I assure all, that we will answer any question.

 

America is a wonderful place. You are allowed to say almost anything you want. We should all remember that words have meanings and consequences. Good luck to all.

 

Sincerely,

Steve Burdine & Becky Beckmann

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To Whom It May Concern:

 

It has come to our attention that several posts to the BC Boards recently have included questions about our breeding program at Rising Sun Farm. While Becky spends many hours on the PC trying to keep the Rising Sun Farm website current neither of us put any time into chat rooms. It's only when someone e-mails us that we find out about these kinds of things.

 

Our first thought, and may still be the better one, is to ignore these kinds of things. I'm not sure that we will ever be able to satisfy some. We offer candor, common sense, and clarity, with good will to all.

 

It seems impossible to answer all of the charges at a single shot. So, we thought we would do the next best thing. We are willing to entertain all questions to those who wish to call or e-mail us. Wouldn't it be better to go directly to the source than deal with half-truths, innuendo, and lies?

 

Sunlight is said to be the best disinfectant. Our phone number is 651-462-5967. Steve's cell phone is 612-716-4918. Becky's cell phone is 612-270-6890. All are welcome and we are willing to discuss any aspect of our breeding program.

 

We ask one thing only in return. If you make a charge, be prepared to site your source. Give me a name, date and place when a certain incident took place. Our first concern is with our puppy owners, but I assure all, that we will answer any question.

 

America is a wonderful place. You are allowed to say almost anything you want. We should all remember that words have meanings and consequences. Good luck to all.

 

Sincerely,

Steve Burdine & Becky Beckmann

 

 

 

It has been a few months since this topic was discussed on the boards. I felt the need to respond to this post from the breeder in regards to my own 3 year old Border Collie purchased from Rising Sun. My intent is not revengeful or even based on anger for what has happened to me and to my young dog. I hope only to warn others to be cautious about any puppy they purchase here.

 

On top of Fever's behavioral problems, which I have been in some ways successful in improving, but not to the level to which she can safely participate in the activities for which I purchased her, Fever has some serious health issues. In November she was diagnosed with Inflammatory Bowel Disease, which was most likely caused by persistent Giardia that she orignally had when she was shipped to me as a puppy and an abnormal immune function also apparent in other bitches from the litter. In March, she had a grand Mal seizure. My vet costs are around $3000 which does not include future expenses.

 

This is the email message I sent to Rising Sun requesting a refund of my purchase price. I have no intention of returning Fever or re-homing her, she is part of my family and will stay with me throughout her life, period. However, I am now in the position where I need to add another dog to my household, which I had no plans to do in order to pursue the activities that I am extremely involved in that I can not do with Fever and have incurred a great deal of expense due to her health issues.

 

Rising Sun did not even bother with the courtesy of a response.

 

Like Steve or Becky said - "Sunlight is said to be the best disinfectant".

If anyone would like to see the included video or veterinary documentation, I will be happy to email that privately.

 

 

Jennifer Shipley <[email protected]> Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 1:21 PM

To: [email protected]

Becky,

 

Fever has serious behavioral issues that I have worked on throughout her life. These issues have prevented her from successfully competing in agility or from working sheep. Fever has bitten two people and has to be carefully managed to make sure she is not put in a situation where she feels startled or threatened. She will bite. Her sisters, Vixen and Sawya share similar behavioral problems. Vixen also has bitten people and also has to be carefully managed. I have spoken with Doris many times and she is also careful of certain situations with Sawya.

 

On sheep Fever is highly stressed, aggressive and reactive and, despite working her regularly with a friend/instructor, I was never able to make any headway in improving her behavior. My friend and I decided that the stress Fever felt while being asked to work stock was doing more harm to her then good when taking her overall behavioral problems into consideration. I no longer work her on sheep.

 

In agility Fever is reactive and can be aggressive toward both people and other dogs. She feels intense stress in a trial situation and reacts with defensive aggression. I am fortunate to be friends with Leslie McDevitt a well known dog behaviorist and the author of one of the preeminent behavioral books out there today, "Control Unleashed". Despite a lot of time and effort on my part I have been unable to improve Fever's behavioral problems enough to safely compete with her in agility. If you are not familiar with Leslie or "Control Unleashed" feel free to visit her website. http://www.controlunleashed.net/. Despite Leslie's help and my long time experience in dog and agility training, Fever is unsafe.

 

The video seen using the following link is from a trial in February. Although you cannot see it on the video, Fever's hackles are raised, her teeth are bared and she is growling. She leaves me to charge first the judge and then a women sitting as a volunteer as ring crew. I received a verbal warning from the judge for Fever's behavior.

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1284866636709616255

 

At her last agility trial in March, Fever's behavior was even worse and I had to excuse her from all classes. I again received a verbal warning from the judge. Fever is unsafe to compete due to her behavioral issues. Despite three years of determined work, I have been unable to correct them.

 

On top of the serious behavioral problems, Fever also has serious health issues. In November as I arrived in Virginia at a friend's house, we noticed that Fever's stomach was distended. She had been slightly off her food that morning and had vomited a little bit, but otherwise was acting fine. We feared bloat and I immediately rushed her to an emergency clinic in VA.

 

Fever received blood work, fluid from her abdomen was tested, she received and x-ray and was diagnosed with Protein-losing enteropathy. She was vigorously tested including a full tox screen, blood work, a full tick panel, urine analysis, several x-rays and an ultrasound. She was diagnosed with inflammatory bowel disease. Please see the included vet records from 11/27/08 - 12/2/08.

 

As I am sure you remember, Fever had Giardia when she arrived to me at 10 weeks. My veterinarian feels that, despite being treated, due to the difficulty in removing Giardia completely from a dog's system, that this could have contributed or caused her Inflammatory Bowel Disease. After the illness as a puppy she showed none of the normal symptoms of Giardia until losing protein from her intestines, no vomiting, no regular diarrhea, etc. None of my other dogs have ever tested positive for Giardia. We were able to return Fever's protein levels to normal range but she has to be on regular enzyme and probiotic supplements and now eats a very specific diet.

 

On March 16th Fever had a grand Mal seizure while eating her breakfast. She was again rushed to the veterinarian. We tested for toxins, performed blood work, ran a toxoplasmosis test, sent blood to Dr. Dodd's for a full thyroid panel and did another full tick panel. Fever was mildly positive for Lyme's and received 30 days of a very strong antibiotic, Azithromycin. Fever's lab results came back normal although her proteins were low again, any stress can cause a flare up of IBD. Her thyroid is normal and she was negative for toxins or toxoplasmosis. She is currently on even more supplements to support normal immune function and hopefully stave off any future seizures. Based on the information I was able to share about Vixen's severe reactions, seizures and health issues and also Sawya's bout of Demodex as a puppy, my veterinarians feel there is a good possibility that there is an abnormal immune function in Fever's litter.

 

Please refer to the vet records from 3/16/09 - 4/7/09. I have also included a complete history from my veterinarian from Fever's first visit to the present.

 

My vet strongly suggested that Fever not participate in any activity or be taken anywhere where she can be stressed as this could cause a flare up of IBD or trigger a seizure. At this point since we have ruled out other causes of seizures, I live in fear that she will have additional seizures that her condition may worsen and threaten her life or that she may have to go onto conventional anti-seizure medications that can damage her organs. I cannot participate in any of the activities for which I purchased Fever.

 

I also find myself in a situation where I now have to consider adding another dog or puppy if I want a dog for competition in the sport that has been my passion for 14 years. My Flute is 10 and my current dog, Enna is now seven, the reason I purchased Fever in the first place three years ago. I now have a very active young dog who cannot participate and need to add an additional young dog which is not something I had planned to do.

 

My expenses due to Fever's health problems are closing in on $3000. She also requires supplements that cost between $35 - $50 a month as we are trying to stabilize her immune system, control her IBD and hopefully prevent any additional seizures.

 

At this time I am requesting a full refund of Fever's purchase price. This will allow me to recoup some of the expense of treating and diagnosing her. I can put some of the refund towards replacing her with a dog who does not have behavioral or health problems for competition in agility and herding as well as continue her on the supplements that she requires. I adore Fever and I will continue to do whatever is necessary to provide her with as full and happy of a life as possible while working with my veterinarians to keep her health stable. I would hope, Becky, that you will stand behind the dog that you have bred and be happy that she was lucky enough to end up in a home with someone who will continue to love and provide for her despite her issues. I hope that you prove that correct and do the right thing and refund me for her purchase.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

My address for mailing is listed below.

 

Regards,

Jen Shipley

770 Folly Rd

Warrington, PA 18976

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Some comments you made, Jen, concerning giardia and subsequent irritable bowel syndrome and a somewhat compromised immune system, caught my attention.

 

I picked up my Bute (not at all connected with the breeder being discussed) at 12 weeks of age and, as he had diarrhea shortly after I got him, I took him five days (after I picked him up) to the vet where we got a fresh fecal sample in which the vet was able to see giardia under the microscope.

 

We treated him for it (and shortly after, for the hookworm burden that he had). I would not be the least surprised that he had it for some time before we picked him up, as was the vet's opinion. He has had a "senstive system" all the three years we have owned him. We have re-treated him for giardia and had bloodwork done, including that for IBS (the results are not in yet). He has fairly frequent episodes of diarrhea, usually accompanied with gas. He also is a very picky eater and will not eat certain quality prepared kibbles (but will eat raw, veggies, and just about any disgusting, half-rotten thing he can find outside, and is always seeking fiber in his diet). As in your case, none of our other animals have ever had a positive for giardia, although I know it can be hard to detect.

 

In addition, Bute appears to have a compromised immune system. Minor scratches and abrasions in certain locations (groin area and inside the flanks, but sometimes elsewhere) tend to infect deeply into the skin layers to the point that our vet said the infections visually resembled the workings of "flesh-eating bacteria" (although they don't go beyond the skin layer, they are very nasty and eat away completely through the skin in the location of the wound). They are very easily treated with a mild anti-biotic, drying spray, which indicates that the basteria are not particularly potent but rather that Bute's system doesn't cope with them well at all).

 

Just a bit of long-windedness about apparently similar issues that we face with Bute, but thankfully not with seizures.

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Ouch, sorry to read all you have to go through Jen. Too bad there isn't anything contractual you can try to enforce.

 

Gosh, one would think they could make good on a puppy with that many issues since they have no less than 6 litters planned on the website - and "all" stipulate "all colors"!

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In addition, Bute appears to have a compromised immune system.

 

Just a bit of long-windedness about apparently similar issues that we face with Bute, but thankfully not with seizures.

 

Here are some supplements I would put Bute on which my veterinarian has had me put Fever on and which have seemed to really help keep her system stable.

 

Vitamin C with bioflavinoids - 1000 mg a day

A multi B - 25 mg a day (if it is already a supplement in your dog food)

Vitamin E - 200 iu a day

A good quality probiotic twice a day - I use Primal Defense

An enzyme supplement twice a day - I use Bert's Zyme from B-Naturals

L-Glutamine - an immune supportive supplement that also helps with protein absorption

Beta 1,3 Glucans - an excellent immune system supportive supplement that my vet has me on too, he takes it himself! :rolleyes:

Fish or Salmon oil - 2000 mg a day. Make sure it is high quality and check for rancidness every three or four days.

 

Best,

Jen

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Gosh, one would think they could make good on a puppy with that many issues since they have no less than 6 litters planned on the website - and "all" stipulate "all colors"!

 

 

Exactly and if they were even reasonably intelligent they would have refunded me the first time I contacted them when she was biting and charging people randomly before almost a year of Control Unleashed work much less now after all of the health issues. Then I would be telling people about all of the issues Fever has and who her parents were but also including the fact that the breeder did actually stand behind the dog that they bred and refund my purchase. Now I make sure that everyone knows that they did not do that or even bother to respond to me.

 

Lovely breeder. :rolleyes:

 

Jen

 

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Jen,

 

It sounds like you have your hands full. So sorry to hear about all of the problems. :rolleyes:

 

What does your contract say as far as what the breeder offers in the way of a guarantee?

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Jen - Thank you for the suggestions. When I get back next week, I will try those ideas. I used to give Bute fish oil, flax oil, and still give Vite E, but the vet did recommend the B vites as well. It was very interesting that many of your dog's problems were similar to what I see with Bute.

 

Bute can be hard to supplement but I could put those additives in his raw meat and he will eat it. While the others eat supplements outright, I have to "hide" his. I appreciate your suggestions.

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