alligande Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 In April I adopted a new BC who is now about 4. A little background: he was given up because his master passed and his widow knew that the two of them were not meant to be together. He had never lived with another dog but was well socialised and loves to play with others but... my other dog is 14, a german shepherd X who does not want to play with the annoying youngster. At home he spends his time focusing on her, staring through furniture etc. when she moves he pounces and play bites her ears. We have tried to introduce more constructive hobbies, toys, balls filled with treats (he does not care for kongs doesn't like to chew) but they last for a couple of minutes and back to starring he goes. We have also tried making him sit with us but he always finds a way to laser eye Jester and it annoys her. What I am wondering is if anyone as any suggestions about ho to go about changing the behaviour. This is really our last great challenge. PS I cant use with clickers with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 It is very hard for me to resist asking why you can't use clickers with him, but I'll will. Do you interrupt the staring in anyway? A noise or word, a (gentle) poke, making him get up and move away from starting at her? Make it clear you do not approve of the behavior? Obviously it is a very self-reinforcing behavior. Sometimes a brief time out in a crate or sending him out of the room to lie down where he can't stare at your other dog can help get the message across that you will not permit that behavior. Or you could keep the two dogs separated which is not always easy and always my last choice because time with my dogs is limited enough as it is for me. But your old girl should be able to relax without being teased or pushed around by a young dog, no matter how playful. Also, is he getting enough exercise, training, mental stimulation in general so he should not need to have this sort of "hobby"? Is he able to just chill out and relax or does he always want to be doing something? If not, I would work on getting a "off switch." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 I had a 4 year old male (Bandit) here this past spring that did the same thing, other dogs would get so offended that they would actually attack him, and literally try to kill him. I ended up having to teach him that he did not want to look at other dogs, if another dog looked at him I made him release his pressure by looking away from them. After I was successful at teaching him to release his eye I could let him look at other dogs and they would not get offended because he was no longer being rude. BTW, many consider it a form aggression, and the other dogs take it as aggression and typically meet it with more aggression when the eye is not released. Even the friendliest easy going dogs would be leaning on the leashes lashing out at him. How you go about getting him to learn to be polite and not stare, is all up to what your willing to do to correct him when he is being rude. I worked Bandit through it one day when we had a herding clinic here with many strange dogs, it was actually the trainer that was here that told me that I was going to have to make him not want to look at another dog before he would learn how to properly interact with another dog, basically I had to take him to the other extream. This dog also locked onto stock really hard with his eye, getting him to release his eye was the key to getting him to flank freely too, before that day he was really sticky. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indydog Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 In April I adopted a new BC who is now about 4. A little background: he was given up because his master passed and his widow knew that the two of them were not meant to be together. He had never lived with another dog but was well socialised and loves to play with others but... my other dog is 14, a german shepherd X who does not want to play with the annoying youngster. At home he spends his time focusing on her, staring through furniture etc. when she moves he pounces and play bites her ears. We have tried to introduce more constructive hobbies, toys, balls filled with treats (he does not care for kongs doesn't like to chew) but they last for a couple of minutes and back to starring he goes. We have also tried making him sit with us but he always finds a way to laser eye Jester and it annoys her. What I am wondering is if anyone as any suggestions about ho to go about changing the behaviour. This is really our last great challenge. PS I cant use with clickers with him. We had similar problem with go our puppy and our 8 year old. We even hired a trainer and partice a number positive condition techniques. But utimately, every thing just got better wtih time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted January 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 It is very hard for me to resist asking why you can't use clickers with him, but I'll will. I have tried different variations clicker voice, biro etc and he runs away and hides which for this highly food motiviated dog is weird, so I just let it go. He has never been clicker trained. Do you interrupt the staring in anyway? A noise or word, a (gentle) poke, making him get up and move away from starting at her? Make it clear you do not approve of the behavior? Obviously it is a very self-reinforcing behavior. Sometimes a brief time out in a crate or sending him out of the room to lie down where he can't stare at your other dog can help get the message across that you will not permit that behavior. Or you could keep the two dogs separated which is not always easy and always my last choice because time with my dogs is limited enough as it is for me. But your old girl should be able to relax without being teased or pushed around by a young dog, no matter how playful. Yes we do it all the time, we don't use a crate but do have traditional baskets were the dogs get sent for "time out", I don't think seperation is nessacery half the time it is more annoying to us than his victim most of the time she just ignores him until he bites an ear Also, is he getting enough exercise, training, mental stimulation in general so he should not need to have this sort of "hobby"? Is he able to just chill out and relax or does he always want to be doing something? If not, I would work on getting a "off switch." Plenty of exercise, always working on basic obedience when out walking etc. We do agility once a week (to cold to practise at home this time of year) He does have down time either in his basket or favorite corner but as soon as my old girl moves he is up and focused on her. This is mostly an at home hobby, occasionally it happens when we are out walking. We switch him off by sending him to his basket to chill which does work. When he first came to live with us he did not have one. He is a very twitchy dog, not nervous, just the opposite of chilled. He does not do this with other dogs, only Jester. My reading of the situation is that he wants her to play as every other dog he meets wants to play with him he can't figure out why his room mate won't. Thanks for the input Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 I think there should be trumpets and fanfare accompanying this post! Thank you so much for recognizing this behavior for what it is, rude and silly, and not calling it "herding"! Thank you, you may now return to your regularly scheduled original post. Anyway, you'll just have to be patient. One thing you can't do is just let it continue. One of two things will happen. It will continue forever, or it will intensify geometrically until it's all your dog will want to do (you've already seen this to some extent). One thing you need to do is work on your relationship with your dog. Your dog should be wondering what you are doing, not amusing itself being fixated on the other dog's movements. Try walking out of the room. If your dog doesn't follow immediately, correct your dog and call him. Walk back into the room and try again. Do this several times. Do it every time you move until your dog will follow without needing the correction. But make sure you don't call your dog first. Do it in the yard, too - you might need a long leash out there to begin with. As your dog has started getting in the habit of following you around, randomly ask your dog to do obedience stuff. If you do agility, he probably knows "touch" - get him to touch random objects. What you want, is for him to be thinking constantly - "What WAY COOL thing will that person do next?" You want your dog to feel a part of what you do, not just a little piece of your life. Not every dog needs this and you won't have to do this for the rest of this dog's life. You just need to guide this dog into a pattern of thinking that is focused on you rather than entertaining himself and feeling like he's on his own (the twitchy stuff). I believe this will help him relax, as well - you'll end up with a much less nervy dog if you are patient and give this time to work. Which reminds me. Don't give up after two days and say, "This isn't working." Changing the way a dog thinks can take weeks, and sometimes months to make it permanent. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted January 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Thanks for the ideas Rebecca, my husband and I are going to give it a go. We had tried so many other ways of distracting him and were just stumped at what to try next. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'Elle Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 This thread is interesting to me because my recently aquired dog (Kit, who came to me in May) started out staring the same way constantly at my dog (who is also named Jester, like the OP's dog). Jester himself corrected some of this by letting her know he thought it was rude, and she backed off somewhat. For months she followed him around and stared at him from a distance, and Jes ignored her. She tried to get him to play; he ignored her. She chased him when he was fetching ball or frisbee, then went into a crouch and stared at him until I threw it again. I figured if Jes were not really bothered by it I wouldn't be. Eventually Jester responded to her repeated attempts to get him to play. Now they play together daily, and I have never seen more lovely dog play. They have fun but are never overly boisterous, don't have to be told to tone it down. They can play in the living room while two people are carrying on a conversation and there's no interruption. No noise, no fussing; just gently affectionate play. Kit still stares at Jes, but now most of the time now it's only during playtime with ball or frisbee. She still chases him when he fetches, but that's a good thing, because she is getting as much exercise as he is. She has no interest in bringing back the ball, and Jes doesn't really want to share it, so it works out ok, except for the times she gets to it first and hogs it until I tell her to leave it. I think in some cases the staring behavior tones down or may even fade away as the dog becomes more comfortable with being there, and the relationship develops between the dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Something about your expirence with clicker training just struck me, don't let your dog escape. If he has learned to escape when he wants to continue on his own program or when he does not want to recieve information your never going to get him to change. He's just going to evade all of your attempts to show him a different way. We want the dog to move off pressure, but never get in the habit to escape it as a form of resisting. You may need to leash him for any lessons until he gives up thinking escape, and that might be the first lesson, don't think escape. Just some added thoughts after considering things that would prevent you from having success. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Something about your expirence with clicker training just struck me, don't let your dog escape. That is a really good point. I'm puzzled by the idea that a dog could find a verbal marker combined with food to be so stressful. I've known dogs who were freaked by clickers but why would a word followed by a treat stress the dog? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 That is a really good point. I'm puzzled by the idea that a dog could find a verbal marker combined with food to be so stressful. I've known dogs who were freaked by clickers but why would a word followed by a treat stress the dog? The goose control dog that was here for retraining was like that, any interation that was not on her terms sent her running for her crate, even the click of the thermostat when the furnace kicked in. I was baffled by her and was not able to get anything done with her until I took her escape away, it's like somebody wired her so tight to escape that she couldn't see the treat or reward. Once I was able to unwire the escape reflex she turned into a different dog, before she was real jumpy, it was like your touch was electrified, after it was like she was at peace with the world. It was actually interesting to see all the changes that occured, before she would never quietly walk around the house, it was always a high wired prance and pace, after flat footed and no more pacing. Wayne had a mare that was like that too, real flinchy, it was like your hand was hot when you touched her and burning her, taking the escape away made her deal with things and she settled down. A long time back I watched a documentary of a then new way to tame wild horses, they would put them into a holding alley and fill it with beans or corn, and then put a halter on it and handled it around the head and neck, once the horse figured it out that it could not escape and that it was not going to die it relaxed and recieved the information. They then released the horse and it was like a different horse, now ok with accepting human touch. Only thing I can think of is that the flight response is so keen that the dog/horse just can't deal with and process information that others can. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted January 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 I agree the clicker thing is very weird. Brody is not noise sensitive, nor does he run away from any other training such as voice commands e.g. being told he is a bad dog. I use my voice as a clicker all the time (comes from ridding horses) but he only responds negatively when I click then treat. I did not use verbal commands then treat only different variations of clicking. If I restrained him he just hid his head,would not make eye contact and shook. My first thought was his previous owners had clicker trained him, but when I asked they had not used clickers in the basic obediance classes they took. By many peoples standards we are strict with the dogs (I believe in good manners in dogs and people) but as the clicker was new to me and terrified Brody I spent a couple of weeks trying to introduce him to the concept of noise + treat and in the end just let it go as there are so many other ways to get my point across. He is a very easy dog to train so I have not felt that this was a problem. I only mentioned so that we could cancel out using clicker training to reshape his behaviour. I wish Jester would sort it out herself, but she is a wimp when standing up for herself, Bandit her old BC brother dominated her as well. But in her prime I could not have asked for a better body guard both from people and strange dogs. In fact it is only family that can push her around. Once again thanks for the input, it helps to have others input when you get stumped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted May 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 I wanted to post an update on this situation, we spent time distracting Brody from his rude staring and slowly the situation evolved. It seems over time the dogs resolved the problem themselves, I think Jester my old lady finally bit him ( I found evidence of small wound on his head) when we were not around and now he spends his time avoiding her, and making sure he does not get in her way or in any way piss her of. He still looks at her but the attitude is 180, now it is about watching her to make sure he can get out of her way quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 now he spends his time avoiding her, and making sure he does not get in her way or in any way piss her of. He still looks at her but the attitude is 180, now it is about watching her to make sure he can get out of her way quickly. Um.... Personally, I wouldn't consider the problem "resolved" so much as a new problem in place. I don't expect my dogs to be the best of pals (good thing since Quinn and the Lhasa don't care for each other), but I do expect them to be able to live relatively stress free. Maybe I'm not getting the full picture of your dogs' interactions with each other. At the very least, though I would not leave these dogs alone together when I left the house. I forget how old Brody is but sometimes dogs reach an age where they decide they're no longer going to back down from a dog that has been pushing them around or they simply get tired of it. Things can get ugly very quickly, especially with no one there to intervene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted May 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 Thanks for the concern, I was trying to be brief, Brody is almost five and Jester is over 14 and a very mild mannered dog, but does get grumpy around young silly behavior. I think one day she had just had enough of his rude behavior and snapped at him dog style, the small wound, I found once it was almost heeled ( I thought I had found a tick) I think was one tooth. This was a couple of months ago, the only changes in behavior we have witnessed is now the youngster is giving the old lady lots of space and does not try and mess with her. The old lady just does her best to ignore his presence and makes no attempt to boss him around, in my post I think I made it sound like he was responding to her. What he is doing is responding to her getting up and going for a drink or just finding a new comfy spot, she has no interest in him at all. They co-exist peacefully and I have no reasons to be concerned that either one will turn on the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 I made a discovery about this, with my new dog. I've never had a pup or new dog develop this behavior in front of my eyes until Sam came along. He started doing this to Ted suddenly one day. I was annoyed because I really didn't want to have to start correcting him right off the bat like that (I'd only had him about ten days then). But I realized that he only did it if I was looking at Ted. At the time, I was worried that Ted was going to eat the puppy so I guess I was staring at him constantly. Apparently that triggers Sam's eye or something. I stopped looking at Ted and he stopped, and hasn't done it since. No correction needed. But that was with a baby puppy just starting to show the behavior. I don't know how that might apply to an older, confirmed dog "herder." I also found I could trigger interest in toys by looking at the toy, and he started bringing the toy all the way back right away. If I look at him, he'll stop as soon as I do it, drop the ball and lie down. Hmm. Where have I seen that before? *cough*Cord*ahem* Just some sort of interesting and possibly unhelpful observations. YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.