Intensity , help please.

[Elizabeth77]

I do not know if I should deal somehow with Meg's intensity on the following occasion.

I refer to throwing stones , balls for her. With stones in particular if we are on the beach she gets this amazing look of concentration in her eyes and just wants me to throw stones for her to chase. Now she seldom finds the stone and seems happy to just dash in the general direction and then straight back to me to have another stone thrown.

If another dog approaches her during this performance it is so obvious Meg wants nothing to do with the dog, just stones. She will bark at the dog and make it quite clear she is busy and push off!! The intensity of this stone chasing is , to me, amazing.

 

It shows in another way with the ball when at home. Not having a clue about bringing the ball back, when she finds it she will sit by it for ages waiting for me to come and throw it again. Weird.

I feel this intensity may not be good.

Should I stop the stone throwing? I am not worried about her breaking teeth or swallowing the stones cos she never really finds them. It also does give her lots of excercise. This is the only area in which I have seen her show such almost unnatural concentration.

Am I worrying unduly? Comments most welcome. Thank you.

[sandra s.]

Kessie shares that addiction. I do not even look at the pebbles on the riverbank anymore when she's watching, because that's all it takes to set her off. I'd rather have her running around being a dog. Ball obsession is a different matter IMO, because when the ball is gone, then the ball is GONE and the dog can turn to other matters. But there's always another pebble.

[juliepoudrier]

I think I would avoid the stone throwing to avoid creating an obsessive behavior. If she's not even finding the stones, then there's no real purpose to her dashing around and I personally wouldn't want to encourage mindless staring at stones, nor mindless dashing after things she can't actually find and fetch back. I'm sure others can help you teach her how to fetch properly.

 

J.

[bsms99]

My first dog, Chris, LOVED for me to throw stones. He particularly loved it if the stone skipped along, letting him chase it. If I threw it into the water, he would stick his head underwater and bark at it. You could hear a muffled 'woof woof' bubbling up from beneath the surface.

 

Anyways, I did that until he chipped one of his teeth. After that, I relied on sticks and balls.

 

BTW - told one of my roommates that Chris loved to chase stones...he looked at me kind of odd, and asked, "Does he ever catch up with them?"

[juliepoudrier]

Sticks present their own unique hazard, and the only time I throw sticks for dogs is when I can lob the stick into the water, since I'm sure it will land before the dog gets there. There used to be a very good website detailing the dangers of sticks, called sticktotoys.com. It's worth checking out. As someone who has had a dog impale itself with a stick she was catching and another who was chewing on a stick and jammed it into her soft palate, I learned my lesson the hard way.

 

J.

[ArchersMomma]

I have an intensity issue with Archer and the throwing of toys as well. If I put the toy up, he'll hunt until he finds another...first thing he does every morning is find one and throw it at my feet. I know this is my fault since we have been so busy on the holidays, his training has lapsed. But we've picked up the Power of Positive Dog Training and some clickers so I'm hoping once we get back on the training track that this obsessiveness/intensity will stop....right?

 

My point is, maybe try getting her to focus on something other than rocks and balls....may calm the intensity down somewhat? I'm looking forward to hearing any suggestions for this as well! However, maybe this is also a good way for her to exercise when out? If she's doing it ALL the time then I think it would be an issue. How is she at home?

[Ninso]

Sounds like you just have a typical border collie! Mine have the same intensity when fetching or playing with toys--nothing else matters, not other people, not other dogs, nothing! It's a border collie thing, and one of the things I love about them. As others mentioned, I might not throw stones for her. Julie makes a good point about possibly creating an obsessive behavior (with balls and toys, you can just put the object away when the game is done, but stones are always there), but maybe you could bring a toy to the beach and she could fetch that. I often bring mine to the lake in the summer and have them fetch a floating toy out of the water (I use an orange plastic hunting bumper). They love it and it wears them out!

 

To teach her to bring the toy back, you might start with her on a long line, throw the toy for her and when she gets it, call her to come back to you. If she doesn't come, just reel her in with the line. It's okay if she doesn't bring the toy at first--praise her for coming back, go get the toy together and try again. In fact, you may not even need a long line to teach her to fetch. Wait for a short time, call her to come to you and if she doesn't, go get the toy and pick it up, game over! If you want her to consistently bring the toy to you, NEVER go get it youself. The game ends unless she brings it back. She sounds like a smart one and should pick up on the idea very soon! Border collies are natural retreivers, but can also be manipulative and try to make their own rules for the game. As long as you insist on your rules she should switch over quickly!

 

ETA: Toys are always put away when I'm not playing with my dogs. They can have their chew bones, but toys are for playing with me only and only when I say. My dogs are always ready for a game when I am, but don't bug me to play. I make sure they get plenty of play time.

[Withzia]

Sticks present their own unique hazard, and the only time I throw sticks for dogs is when I can lob the stick into the water, since I'm sure it will land before the dog gets there.

 

The other approach is to keep the dog in a stay while you throw the stick, to make sure the stick will make it to the ground first. There are still dangers with chewing on sticks (or just running with a sharp pointed object in your mouth), but this helps some.

[Root Beer]

It shows in another way with the ball when at home. Not having a clue about bringing the ball back, when she finds it she will sit by it for ages waiting for me to come and throw it again. Weird.

I feel this intensity may not be good.

Should I stop the stone throwing? I am not worried about her breaking teeth or swallowing the stones cos she never really finds them. It also does give her lots of excercise. This is the only area in which I have seen her show such almost unnatural concentration.

Am I worrying unduly? Comments most welcome. Thank you.

 

Ah, Meg must be related to Speedy! He definitely "fixates" on certain things.

 

In some ways it's no big deal. In water, for instance, he will pick his ball up, throw it down, stare at it for a second, pick it up, throw it down, stare, pick it up, throw it down, etc. in an endless loop. It's quite entertaining. Dean, who does not fixate, watches him with great curiosity and will eventually dive in, grab the ball, and bring it to me for throwing!

 

The intensity bit us, though, when we tried to do Agility. To this day, Speedy will fixate on Agility equipment and his ability to function normally around it is minimal.

 

I knew of no reward based answer to this problem until the Control Unleashed book came out. There is even a bit of a blurb in the book, I'm not sure which page its on, where the author describes how she worked her own Border Collie through such fixation.

 

I've used some CU with Speedy for fixation and seen real breakthroughs. Had I known about these techniques when he was young, he would have been much better off.

 

In spite of his tendency to fixate, he has never truly become obsessive about anything. Sure, he will hunt tirelessly for a lost toy - especially if he thinks he knows which direction it went in or if he can smell it, but he can snap out of the fixating mode once the game/activity/etc. is over and behave normally.

 

I'd be concerned about a dog who could never come back to reality once getting into a fixated mode. Otherwise, I would use CU to tone it down.

[juliepoudrier]

The other approach is to keep the dog in a stay while you throw the stick, to make sure the stick will make it to the ground first. There are still dangers with chewing on sticks (or just running with a sharp pointed object in your mouth), but this helps some.

 

You're right about the making them stay part, but I've also had dogs break/knock teeth out going after balls or other objects rolling on the ground, so I try to limit that sort of thing unless I have a ball like a holee roller that the dog can grab on the run without having to actually put its mouth too near the ground. But I think my dogs must be rather accident prone....

 

J.

[Ninso]

Kristine,

 

Good points, but I just wanted to add that intensity and fixation are two different things. I bet you would describe Dean as intense in his fetch games, even if he doesn't fixate on a toy like Speedy does. I'm having trouble putting the difference between the two into words, but maybe "fixation" would be better described as a focus on a particular object to the exclusion of everything else--including the human handler. My dogs are intense about fetch games, but their focus is very much on me as well as they toy, and it sounds like Meg is the same way. I don't think intensity is a problem. Fixation might be, depending on the particular circumstance. Obsession can also be a problem, but it is not the same as intensity. Kristine the example you describe from CU has to do with a border collie that was unable to follow commands when a toy was present, as I recall, because the toy was his sole point of focus. Lok has the same issue to a degree and to this day is not able to sit or lay down in the presence of a toy. He just gets "stuck" in staring mode. I think this is closer to fixation, and something that CU work can help solve if you feel a need to do so (I just choose not to use those commands during fetch games--Lok will respond to a recall and a "wait" command if I need to control him). However, to repeat, plain old border collie intensity can look/feel strange to people not used to it, but I don't think it's a problem that needs solving unless it turns into fixation or obsession. I didn't see anything in Elizabeth's post to make me think either of these things were an issue.

[Root Beer]

Kristine,

 

Good points, but I just wanted to add that intensity and fixation are two different things. I bet you would describe Dean as intense in his fetch games, even if he doesn't fixate on a toy like Speedy does.

 

True! That's exactly how I would describe it. Dean will even stare and track the ball with his eyes, but the world outside of the ball does not disappear for him.

 

When he's playing ball, I can have Dean do all kinds of behaviors to earn the throw. I can have him twirl, leg weave, circle around me, back away, or take Agility eqiupment, or even do a whole Agility sequence. He's intense, he is mentally zoned in on the ball, but he is still in mental balance with the world around him.

 

When Speedy is playing ball, he cannot pull his eyes away from it to do behaviors. He is mentally zoned in on the ball and nothing else. Using CU, I have taught him to break his gaze to look at me and then look back at the toy on cue and then back at me, but it would take a great deal of work (which I know now can be done) to teach him to break away from the toy to function in some meaningful way.

 

That's why he can't do Agility. He stares at the jump, he runs around the jump while staring at it, he jumps it willy nilly, but he cannot jump in a straight line over a jump and then move on. Again, I know now it could be done, but whether or not I will bother remains to be seen.

 

I'm having trouble putting the difference between the two into words, but maybe "fixation" would be better described as a focus on a particular object to the exclusion of everything else--including the human handler.

 

That's a good way to describe it, I think.

 

I'd add that when the dog is fixated, he lacks the mental ability to choose to break away and move his focus elsewhere. Hence, you end up with a dog staring intently at the vacuum cleaner or ball or whatever and the dog himself seems "fixed" to the object. Obviously this doesn't last forever, but the dog would usually be very hard pressed to just "leave it" and move his attention to something else, unless some conditioning/training had taken place.

 

Kristine the example you describe from CU has to do with a border collie that was unable to follow commands when a toy was present, as I recall, because the toy was his sole point of focus. Lok has the same issue to a degree and to this day is not able to sit or lay down in the presence of a toy. He just gets "stuck" in staring mode. I think this is closer to fixation, and something that CU work can help solve if you feel a need to do so

 

That's the one.

 

(I just choose not to use those commands during fetch games--Lok will respond to a recall and a "wait" command if I need to control him).

 

In day to day living, I pretty much do the same. Speedy, of course, can leave his ball to come into the house or would actually bring the ball near my feet and throw it on the ground if I tell him "drop it".

 

I find the CU most useful in this case as an impulse control exercise. If Speedy can learn to do a spin when I have a ball in my hand, his ability to do a spin in competition increases, etc. He must break out of his fixation briefly to execute that spin and that takes a lot of mental work for him.

 

When he was younger he used to REALLY fixate - almost to the point of obsession. I never really trained him out of this - I would put all of the toys away sometimes, keep the vacuum cleaner in the closet, etc. He eventually picked up on the fact that there was a time to fixate and a time to ignore the objects that he would fixate on pretty much on his own.

 

However, to repeat, plain old border collie intensity can look/feel strange to people not used to it, but I don't think it's a problem that needs solving unless it turns into fixation or obsession. I didn't see anything in Elizabeth's post to make me think either of these things were an issue.

 

True. I think that when I read that Meg will sit by the ball for ages waiting for it to be thrown again, I did read fixation into that, but upon reflection that is not necessarily the case. In my mind I saw the dog staring at it intently, unable to break away. But the OP didn't say that, she just said that Meg will sit by the ball for ages. That can definitely be simple intensity.

[Ninso]

True. I think that when I read that Meg will sit by the ball for ages waiting for it to be thrown again, I did read fixation into that, but upon reflection that is not necessarily the case. In my mind I saw the dog staring at it intently, unable to break away. But the OP didn't say that, she just said that Meg will sit by the ball for ages. That can definitely be simple intensity.

 

That's how I read it at least. I have a foster that will do the same thing. Stare at her ball and keep shifting her eyes from the ball to me to the ball to me, and so on and so forth until I either pick it up or tell her to bring it closer. I don't consider her fixated--she will respond to commands (sit, down, closer) and will stop if I take the ball away, but if there is a ball around she will toss it at me and stare at it for hours (if I let her) to try to get me to play and she will fetch until she drops (again, if I let her--which I never would of course).

 

Thanks for responding with your thoughts on intensity v. fixation--I was hoping you would!

[bc4ever]

Sticks present their own unique hazard

J.

You beat me to it! Scooter has never played with a stick in his four short years. I once saw a dog on Animal ER who had been impaled on one too. Not nice. The closest he comes to a stick is his orange rubber fake stick!

[Elizabeth77]

As ever so helpful and most interesting.

 

You have sorted a lot out for me and I am not so concerned about Meg now. I felt it might be a BC trait. When I think Meg has had enough of the stones there is no bother putting her on the lead and taking her for a walk; no sulks or sticking paws in ground she comes quite happily.

I don' t throw sticks as I fear them sticking in her mouth/throat.

As for the sitting by the ball , again it is easy when I notice she has been there for a while to distract her by going into the house or something cos it seems I have to be in her sight most of the time.

I tried the 'bringing back' suggestion but no luck. She thought I was a bit daft to think she would fall for the ball on the line trick!!

It does surprise me that such a bright dog just cannot cop on to the bringing the ball back and boy have I tried. I keep thinking that one day she will just do it...if only!

Now I am going back to read all the replies again. Very many thanks.

[Ninso]

She thought I was a bit daft to think she would fall for the ball on the line trick!!

 

Rather than having a ball on a line, try having HER on the line. That way you can kind of reel her in a force her to come back. I have a dog who I am certain would love to make me march all the way across the yard to get the ball if she thought she could get away with it. Whatever you do, you just have to be 100% consistent in insisting on the new rules of the game. If she doesn't bring the ball back after you call her, you go get it and put it away--end of story, no more throwing, no more staring at it and playing on her own . . . unless of course you don't care whether she fetches. Personally, I don't enjoy chasing balls! Trust me, she can learn to fetch. She would just rather play by her rules.

 

ETA: You might also try using two balls when you play--one to throw, one to entice her back with. Some dogs this works well for, others are quite content with the one ball they have.

[Elizabeth77]

Ninso thanks so much for your help.

Meg will chase the ball get it and then sit with it. If I call her to come she will come but leave the ball behind.

I will try doing what you suggest and if she does not bring the ball, finish the game.

I have spent a lot of time encouraging her to bring the ball/rubber bone but as I said she just does not seem to get the message. She looks at me as if she wished she knew what I wanted!! But it is amazing that the message has not got through. I think she will be as pleased as me when the penny drops.

I will keep at it. Thanks again.

Oh I tried the two balls and thought I had the answer but she copped on that there was another ball ready for throwing and just came back ..........alone!!

[Ninso]

It's good that she comes when you call. What does she do after you release her? Does she go back to the ball? Does she seem to want you to throw it again or is she content to just sit by it? I'm operating on the assumption that she does want you to throw it, though some dogs are more into chewing/holding than chasing and they can be more difficult to train for fetching. Try reducing the distance of your throws, or maybe even just rolling it a foot or so away from you. When she picks it up, encourage her to come while she still has it in her mouth and if she comes even part way before dropping it, praise her for that, go get the ball with her and bring it back to where you were and try it again. Patience and consistency!

 

ETA:

Oh I tried the two balls and thought I had the answer but she copped on that there was another ball ready for throwing and just came back ..........alone!!

 

Well, that's a start! If you decide to keep going this route, just make sure she doesn't get a second throw until she brings the first ball. Again, you could keep throws short and begin by a reward for bringing the ball part of the way back and working up to bringing it all the way.

 

ETA again: Does she have a word that means "get the ball"? If I just call my dog (e.g., "Lok, come" he will usually drop his toy and run to me). If I want him to come with the toy I always say "Lok, get it." So if you call her with a "come" command and just her name and she comes toward you say "good girl" (cause that's what you asked for, after all) release her with an "ok" and "get it" or whatever you would say to encourage her to get the ball.

 

Sorry if this is unclear. Sometimes it's tough to advise without actually seeing what's going on.

[Elizabeth77]

You have hit a nail on the head I think. I feel that I may not have made it clear to Meg with a particular command relevant to bringing the ball back.

I think I started by , when she had the ball in her mouth, saying 'come here' which is the command I use to call her minus ball.

Occasionally I used 'bring' but now I see not enough.

I will start again and consistently use 'bring'.

Seems I could have been confusing poor Meg with my commands.

The problem becomes clearer when I talk it out so thank you again.

I will keep you posted on progress.

[afrancis]

You have hit a nail on the head I think. I feel that I may not have made it clear to Meg with a particular command relevant to bringing the ball back.

I think I started by , when she had the ball in her mouth, saying 'come here' which is the command I use to call her minus ball.

 

I was going to say that when I was training Skye as a puppy to bring the ball back to me, timing, excitement and precise wording were very important.

I would throw ball.

She would chase it.

At moment she picked ball up I would yell "Yeah, good girl!" and throw up my arms as if she had scored a touchdown.

Buoyed by my approval and excitement, but no actual commands, she would come back to me with the ball and drop it at my feet.

 

It was the obvious approval and the sheer fun of having done the right thing that made her want to do it again.

 

I also find that a sure-fire way of having her return to me is if I'm sitting down.

Ailsa