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sheepandakom
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I have had several people in the last week tell me that their herding breed (Border Collie, Corgi, German Shepherd) has a lot of "herding instinct" because it "herds" cats, kids, other dogs, etc... It really drives me crazy, and so far, I have always kept my mouth shut. The person with the Corgi lives near me and thought it would be a good idea to bring her dog out to see my sheep. I dodged that one by politely telling her that Corgis work a lot differently than Border Collies and my sheep weren't suitable for other kinds of dogs. Are there any semi-nice responses for people that seem to think their dog would be excellent on sheep because it circles and stares at other living things? I want to set them straight but wonder if I should just keep quiet.

 

Emily

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I use that as an opportunity to educate people- in fact of all the silly things that people say about working sheepdogs or "herding", this is one of the easiest ones to answer without coming off as a snob. I simply say that the behavior that they describe is not the dog herding, but the dog exhibiting prey drive. I usually make a comparison of an old dog I have, one that never "herds" anything except cattle or sheep- she doesn't even play with other dogs or chase a ball. But she is one of the better dogs I ever had on livestock. Or my sheepdog washout that obsesses about the cat and is ball crazy, but never amounted to a lick of sense on sheep. I try to emphasis that working sheep is about ability, not raw instinct, and while those behaviors may have common orgins, instinct wise, until the dog is "trained up", there is no way to tell if the dog is truly a talented worker or not.

 

The only time I really have to watch what I say, because it just makes me so angry that people could be that stupid, is when it is used to justify breeding a dog because "it has the herding instinct".

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Or worse, they say "Fluffy is so herdy." Now THERE's a word that makes me want to scratch my eyeballs out.

 

I usually say something like "Herding breed dogs tend to be very motion sensitive, but being interested in moving objects is not the same as herding." I explain that when a dog is actually working, he is controlling movement in a purposeful manner, not chasing.

 

I then go on to give the personal example of my dog who is much more "herdy" when playing ball than he is on sheep. He works, and he's good at what he's good at, but he's rather plain worker without much eye, and that's not what you'd guess if you thought his ball-playing behavior (or his attempting-to-eat-cats behavior, heh) would predict his working behavior.

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You might ask for more details.

 

I always claimed my pet Border Collie had 'herding instinct', in part because she DID herd everything that moved. She didn't just stare, or chase - she tried to round them up and move them. The one time in her life she had a chance at sheep, it was with range sheep fresh off the mountain, unused to dogs and in a large field. The rancher figured it would be fun to watch, since he knew my dogs would stay under control and he needed to move the sheep thru several gates and fields. To his surprise, she rounded them up, adjusting the pressure to each sheep, then moved them at a walk thru each gate we pointed to until we arrived at their final field. He said he was amazed at how she used just enough pressure, but never too much, and controlled the sheep without frightening them. He also said he'd be glad to take any puppies she ever had. It was her first and last chance working sheep. But if you watched her around kids, soccer games, dogs, etc, the standard moves were all present. I never pretended she had proven herself a trained stockdog.

 

Rather than risk belittling their dogs, ask for more details. Then explain the difference between looking at animals, and herding. If they are receptive, explain a bit about the difference between herding and working stock - which might give you a chance to explain why AKC herding events mean nothing in the Border Collie world. However, if you want to remain friends, you might want to remember that what is a hot button topic in the Border Collie world is unknown in the world at large.

 

When I was asking breeders of working dogs about getting a puppy, I mentioned that my previous Border Collie had herded everything that moved, and that was part of what we loved about her. No one took offense at the word 'herding', or suggested I didn't know anything about a real Border Collie. A guy who is very active in trials wrote back that he knew of a litter coming up soon, had a dog from the same cross that was both a good working dog & good to have around the house, and gave me a contact. I am very grateful that folks understood, and tried to help instead of acting like it was evil of me to want a Border Collie. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone on this thread, but there are folks on the Board who react so aggressively to words used in innocence that they drive away potential allies. If Border Collies can adjust their pressure to individual sheep, then perhaps the owners can adjust their pressure to individual people?

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Oh- my BF got another laser beam from a Xmas bag- I told him "You open this in the house and you are GONE" Didn't mean to sound so bitchy, but Usher got "hooked" on one a 4 months and we actually had to MOVE to get him away from it. Maybe some dogs that don't have ANY prey drive might service, but leave your others at HOME. The laser beam is the worst thing for a border collie. Been there- was warned- didn't listen- thought it was funny. PLUS paid the price!!!!

NO LASER BEAM!!!

I hope you all take heed to this or you will be in trouble.

Just my dearest opinion and believe me- I have been there and done that.

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You might ask for more details.

 

I always claimed my pet Border Collie had 'herding instinct', in part because she DID herd everything that moved. She didn't just stare, or chase - she tried to round them up and move them.

 

Yes good answer. My BC tries to gather rather than chase. She approaches flocks of birds on the ground in the crouch position and you can see her thinking as she starts to circle and she adjusts herself depending on how the birds are reacting. She is always very controlled and I enjoy watching her. I have no idea how she would be for herding as I have no experience in this area but would enjoy an experienced person to tell me more, rather than be dismissive and treat me as if I am an idiot. My dogs are agility and obedience dogs but I love watching the real sheep dogs trials with the best Australian and New Zealand working dogs on the very rare occasion they are shown on TV.

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Rather than risk belittling their dogs, ask for more details. Then explain the difference between looking at animals, and herding. If they are receptive, explain a bit about the difference between herding and working stock - which might give you a chance to explain why AKC herding events mean nothing in the Border Collie world. However, if you want to remain friends, you might want to remember that what is a hot button topic in the Border Collie world is unknown in the world at large.

 

Is that a chip on your shoulder or are you just glad to see us? :D Emily wrote:

 

I have had several people in the last week tell me that their herding breed (Border Collie, Corgi, German Shepherd) has a lot of "herding instinct" because it "herds" cats, kids, other dogs, etc... It really drives me crazy, and so far, I have always kept my mouth shut. The person with the Corgi lives near me and thought it would be a good idea to bring her dog out to see my sheep.

 

Emily has been approached by people who admittedly allow their dogs to harass cats, children and other dogs, who are now asking for the chance to harass her sheep. She wants to know how to decline this invitation in a nice way. How, exactly, is that belitting? :rolleyes:

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Is that a chip on your shoulder or are you just glad to see us? :D Emily wrote:

Emily has been approached by people who admittedly allow their dogs to harass cats, children and other dogs, who are now asking for the chance to harass her sheep. She wants to know how to decline this invitation in a nice way. How, exactly, is that belitting? :rolleyes:

I did not accuse Emily of anything. Hence, "...Rather than risk belittling their dogs, ask for more details." I was trying to emphasize to all the importance of converting someone (if possible).

 

And while harass may accurately describe what the dog would do, it is certainly NOT what anyone asked Emily.

 

Matthew 7.2-5. Merry Christmas.

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And while harass may accurately describe what the dog would do, it is certainly NOT what anyone asked Emily.

 

Actually, it's exactly what people asked Emily to allow their dogs to do. They want to bring their dogs, whom they admittedly cannot control, to Emily's farm so they can chase her sheep.

 

I don't believe for a minute these people think they'd be able to control their dogs in the presence of sheep. They know perfectly well they can't control them in the presence of cats/kids/other dogs/or whatever creature their dog is nipping and chasing. Some may honestly labor under the delusion that allowing their dog to chase sheep will somehow get it out of their system and cure the inappropriate behavior, I don't know. But anyway, they're still asking Emily to endanger her sheep to fix their dog's problem. Not cool.

 

Emily - In rescue, sometimes people say they need to relinquish their dog to us because it "herds" the cat/kids/grandma and so obviously needs to be in a working home. I just tell them the truth - that I've seen dogs who'd work the cat all day long and refuse to even look at a sheep. In your place, I'd also add that a green dog can very easily hurt a sheep, so sorry but no, you can't allow people to bring their dogs to your farm. :rolleyes:

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Actually, it's exactly what people asked Emily to allow their dogs to do. They want to bring their dogs, whom they admittedly cannot control, to Emily's farm so they can chase her sheep.

 

I don't believe for a minute these people think they'd be able to control their dogs in the presence of sheep. They know perfectly well they can't control them in the presence of cats/kids/other dogs/or whatever creature their dog is nipping and chasing...

No, that is NOT "exactly" what they asked. They may be ignorant, but they are not evil or malicious. They simply do not understand the implications of what they are asking.

 

If they were evil, then Emily's best response would be a left hook to the jaw. Since she knows they are not, she is looking for a polite, effective response.

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My thoughts for Emily is that she has every right to simply say no the woman with the Corgi or any other dog. She can say it takes a lot of training to shape instinct into useful working ability and her sheep are precious and only trained working dogs are allowed to work them. A sensible person would accept that.

 

If the person wants to know more about training she can perhaps direct them to wherever she thinks may suit their dog. Maybe suggesting that basic obedience training is a good place to start for any working relationship with a dog.

 

People with herding dogs are always going to think they recognise herding attributes in their dogs. I think I see it in my BC and I remember when I used to take my 2 horses between stables and paddocks my working bred ACD used to apply very subtle controlled pressure from the rear if she thought they were lagging. She wasnt trained it was something she offered and was actually quite useful. She also used to apply similar pressure if I was walking in a group, she would keep everyone moving forward as a group and try and gently but with determination push laggards up. My friends used to laugh at this behaviour, she liked an ordered group moving forward.

 

I know when I go on walks there are lots of kelpies and BCs and they quite frequently offer that crouching, creeping position with their attention fixed on you as you approach them. I havnt seen any other breed do this so have always though it was an instinct related to herding but am happy to stand corrected.

 

I think an experienced person could perhaps listen and if the person is interested explain the finer details of what the person is observing. If warranted the knowledgable person may suggest that the dog probably needs more structured training and exercise especially if the so called herding instinct is being used as an excuse for inapropriate behaviour.

 

I dont know anything about herding but there are a lot of people out there with no idea about basic training for the pet dog. We see them come to our dog club in droves especially after xmas with "uncontrollable puppies" and we spend a lot of time working with them on basic obedience.

 

Use it is an opportunity to educate and if the person is not willing to listen, move on as they will believe what they will believe.

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My specific answer to people I think just want to fool around: "I'm not really an experienced trainer and you should start with someone who really knows what they are doing. It's important for the dog, the person, and most of all the sheep that someone with experience and the right setup work with you the first time."

 

I do let people come and work my sheep - I have old girls who are real troopers and honestly have a nice setup for green dogs. But I'll honestly warn them that I'm not really qualified to interpret what's going on other than being able to keep an enthusiastic dog from hurting anything, and get a timid dog interested.

 

Many times that will fade the interest of any but the most fired up to do it. Well, that and the fact that I live a minimum of 45 minutes and more like an hour and a half from any metro/suburban area. :rolleyes:

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I have had several people in the last week tell me that their herding breed (Border Collie, Corgi, German Shepherd) has a lot of "herding instinct" because it "herds" cats, kids, other dogs, etc... It really drives me crazy, and so far, I have always kept my mouth shut. The person with the Corgi lives near me and thought it would be a good idea to bring her dog out to see my sheep. I dodged that one by politely telling her that Corgis work a lot differently than Border Collies and my sheep weren't suitable for other kinds of dogs. Are there any semi-nice responses for people that seem to think their dog would be excellent on sheep because it circles and stares at other living things? I want to set them straight but wonder if I should just keep quiet.

 

Emily

 

I've been putting a lot of thought into this subject and I wanted to be sure that I answered truthfully and not to just give you a canned answer that I would like to hear people say but don't have the nerve to do it myself (though I'm not one to hold back, and tend to say it how I see it). When I get calls as described above I ask more questions, I ask the owner to tell me as to whether the dog is chasing or trying to control. I let them know that chasing is not herding, that we want to see the dog want to control and to think, then we need to team that desire with training and the ability to take direction. I also let them know that the exhibited instinct is only part of the puzzle, without the trainability it of little use. So, far it's pretty much detered everyone except those that have an understanding of what it will take to train a dog to take direction. It was real interesting when I had a followup from someone wanting help finding a new dog, she said that after her conversation with me she realized that her dog did not have the ability she thought it did. This deal was a double win, she originally had intended on breeding based on the instinct that she saw exhibited during play. Rather then telling people their dogs don't have what it takes, I try to ask them questions so they come to the realization on their own.

 

A couple of years ago while at a clinic we watched as a handler took a corgi into the pen, the trainer asked her what her goals where, she said to get her Instinct tests and maybe a title or two, he told the handler to show him what she had, the handler proceeded to lead her sheep around the pen with the dog running circles around them, barking obnoxiously only being held off by the handler yelling lie down and changing the direction with the stock stick. When done the handler came to the trainer pretty proud of herself expecting great praise. The trainer calmly stated "If I was judging your dog in an instinct test she would fail, she is not exhibiting herding instinct, she is just chasing livestock". You could have heard a pin drop, everyone was shocked. The trainer proceeded to explain to everyone that they need to raise their standards and that they need to expect more out of their dogs and the people they are buying their dogs from, livestock is not meant to be chased and he would have none of it. He openned alot of AKC/ASCA people's eyes that day.

 

Deb

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No, that is NOT "exactly" what they asked. They may be ignorant, but they are not evil or malicious. They simply do not understand the implications of what they are asking.

 

If they were evil, then Emily's best response would be a left hook to the jaw. Since she knows they are not, she is looking for a polite, effective response.

 

*sighs* Did I say they were evil? No, I did not. I think they presume a lot, though, and are guilty of incredibly bad manners. And, well, I gave her what I thought was a polite response: No, sorry, can't have my sheep hurt by untrained dogs. What's wrong with that? Anyway, Emily's a future lawyer - she's not going to go around assaulting people (I hope) - unless maybe one of those rude professors pushes her over the edge. :rolleyes:

 

My specific answer to people I think just want to fool around: "I'm not really an experienced trainer and you should start with someone who really knows what they are doing. It's important for the dog, the person, and most of all the sheep that someone with experience and the right setup work with you the first time."

 

Does that one work? I like it, it's just I'm afraid the response I'd get would be "Oh, we don't actually want to learn to work sheep - we just want to have fun for a day." :D

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Sally,

If someone ever said they just wanted their dog to come out and have fun for the day I would have no problem with simply telling them that I don't consider that appropriate use of my sheep. And folks who know me know that I generally will let folks come out and try their dogs for the first time on my sheep (and have let a number of folks do just that), but I also make clear to them that the safety of my sheep is my first priority and that I don't put my sheep through that sort of stress just so someone's dog can "have fun." It means having to have a conversation with the person in question and through that conversation attempting to figure out just what their interest is, but in end, I still have no problem simply saying no.

 

J.

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Does that one work? I like it, it's just I'm afraid the response I'd get would be "Oh, we don't actually want to learn to work sheep - we just want to have fun for a day." :rolleyes:

 

I doubt this would be the case for most people, certainly the ones I know anyway. Anyway no is the easy answer to that one.

 

Experienced sheep farmers I know from my work in agriculture, have offered me to come out and see how my BC looks around sheep. I think most sensible owners are curious and interested and it is always a treat when the farmer brings out his experienced working dogs for a demonstration. So far I havent taken the offer up for my BC because I wouldnt have the time to pursue herding even if she was any good which I doubt, not being from serious working stock. If I wasnt busy with agility and obedience I would love to learn more just because I love training and working with my dogs. One day if I get myself a little working bred pup I would love for some kind experienced person to get me started and point me in the right direction.

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I posted this before, but it was one of the missing posts. I let a woman come work my sheep once. She has an Aussie that has had lessons and had competed in ASCA trials. She indicated that she wanted to work her dog in my large field, but I suggested she work them in my smaller, 100 x 200 area for the first time since she and her dog didn't know these sheep. It was a complete disaster. My sheep tore around the field the entire time and were absolutely terrified. The woman ran and waived her stick and yelled at the dog a lot. My sheep weren't in danger, but they were certainly stressed after the incident. The next time she asked to work my sheep, I told her that they were pregnant and couldn't be worked. She hasn't asked since.

 

I went to an ASCA fun run this fall. I thought it would be good to practice in an arena setting since we were entered in an arena trial at the state fair a few weeks later. Manse and I were kind and careful with the sheep. We couldn't keep them under control. They bolted back and forth frantically from one end of the field to the other. A Corgi went after us. Handler, dog, and sheep completed the course but all five were running. The sheep were so used to out of control dogs that the only thing they did when you gave them space was run like heck. Interestingly, the woman with the Aussie took lessons on these poor, terrified sheep.

 

I don't have any problem telling people they can't come work their dogs. I let them know that my ewes are very flighty and not well suited for young dogs, breeds other than BC's, etc... If those didn't fit, I might say my insurance wouldn't allow it (people use that one a lot). I would let someone that I knew with a trained dog work my sheep, but neither my sheep or I are at all qualified to let untrained dogs come here.

 

What I was actually asking is how you politely tell someone that chasing/harassing animals, objects, people, cars, etc... is not an indication of a dog's herding abilities. From the earlier responses I received (now missing), I think my original thought not to say anything at all is probably the way to go.

 

No, I won't be hitting people. It does sound like fun though.

 

Emily

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I keep getting the same but different

I tell people I do agility with Ben

Oh I would love to do that, when are your compatitions I would like to enter one

 

I tell them about the classes - ' Oh I dont need classes, she knows how to jump'

 

I guess the herding one is similar, a dog may have an interest in sheep, but it takes training to learn control and you need a good partnership with the dog for it to want to work WITH you

 

I am v sorry to say the other day Mia jumped 2 walls and wriggled tru an electric fence to get at sheep

thankfully she didnt hurt them - but if a farmer had been out he would have shot them

She rounded them up into a group in the corner of the field and then ran back to me

 

do I think she needs to be worked on sheep? deff not! I think she will now be harnessed when we are around sheep and will never again get the chance to chase them

sure she had interest, and she did get them to do what she wanted

but she was deaf to commands and had no interest in working WITH me

 

It was v scary for me, and I think anyone who has no control over their dog and is encouraging their 'herding' without taking advice from someone who knows what they are doing are just training their dog to play on their own with other animals - and thats not safe

 

Anyone with sheep would not want a hyper untrained dog joyriding thier sheep

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What I was actually asking is how you politely tell someone that chasing/harassing animals, objects, people, cars, etc... is not an indication of a dog's herding abilities. From the earlier responses I received (now missing), I think my original thought not to say anything at all is probably the way to go.

 

I think you phrased it very well. I'd just tell them that what they're seeing is prey drive, which often doesn't translate to working ability. Not always, though - you've met Violet, my little black and white bitch? I have a really hard time keeping her from harassing my little terrier bitch, but Violet is also interested in sheep. I don't know if she'd ever run in a trial, but based on her round pen work, I think with training she'd be competent at routine farm work.

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When people want their dog to fulfill their instinct by *chasing* my sheep.....I tell them it's not chasing but working. I have Tess give a demo and then with some of them..... the *lightbulb* turns on.....and they go from saying chasing to working the sheep.....then I know there is hope. They we do a lesson.

 

But the ones that I don't ever invite back are the one who think sheep are merely toys for their dog to play with......

 

I make everyone sign a waiver and I POINT out to them that they are responsible for the vet bill or replacement of the sheep and give them $$ so they know.....the "toy chaser" folks go somewhere else....

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joyriding thier sheep

 

I love it!!! An apt description!

 

A

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:D Frankie uses joy riding as a way to get back at sheep that challenge his authority. He will mature and stop doing that some day, but for now he is young and foolish. When he was just a few months old he went after the lead ewe who stomped her feet and charged at him; got through the fence, grabbed some wool and rode her all the way down the field. :rolleyes: From that day on he was king of the feed bunk. Those ewes wouldn't dare run me over to get their grain if Frankie was sitting in it. I think he only weighed about 8 or 10 lbs at that point. A mini land shark. :D
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