Some herding questions...

[Sue R]

No, I don't think you upset anyone. We all just have our particular viewpoints and ways that we feel express respect for an activity, avocation, or obsession (whichever is your approach to "interacting with livestock with your dog"). It's a worthwhile discussion and I think reflects on how each of us approaches the subject, and how our feelings have been shaped by our personal experiences (and by the dictionary, in some cases).

 

I have been, in my even-more-novice years, comfortable with the word, "herding" - until I listened ad nauseum to folks talking about their "herding breeds" (even when the dogs were so far removed from being bred to do work with livestock that they were clueless around stock), "herding instinct tests and titles" (as a validation of the worth and heritage of said dogs with regards to "one can't breed instinct out of them" while breeding for everything but working ability and instinct, and "they are really good herding dogs" because the instinct test proves it), and "going herding" (as an activity like taking an agility class or obedience class, with the stock as living obstacles or "dog toys" whose presence and existance is for the use of the dogs and handler, and not the reason for training and use of the dogs). I know, for all you folks well-versed in the English language, that was a horrible, run-on, no-good sentance.

 

People who don't have stock and want to train their dogs on stock to satisfy something deep in their soul or their dog's soul (but who respect the stock and don't consider it just another training tool, existing for the sake of the dog and handler and not for its own sake), people who do agility or other dog activities, people who have companion animals - none of them are second-class citizens here. They just have different lives with their dogs from those who are dependent on their dogs to help manage their livestock, to whatever degree their livelihood is based on that livestock.

 

You are very right, Steve, in that many of us want to train the dogs (who have been bred for stockwork, while we haven't been) and neglect to train ourselves.

[Amelia]

Hello all. Angel, I wouldn't recommend stockwork for your dog because of the seizures and the limiting medication, Pb. His reaction time will be slow even after he adjusts to the new dosage and there's a risk of injury as a result. Love him for what he is and what he isn't and let it go at that, would be my advice.

 

Regarding the "herding" discussion, i'm firmly in the "working" camp out of respect for the sheparding tradition. To know where you're going, you have to know where you've been and I never want to go "herding" with trite titles and meaningless tests. So, I'll stick with the shepards who elevated sheepdogs to an art form and spent hundreds of years painstakingly creating the world's greatest stockdog.

 

If everyone could spend one day with a UK or Irish hill shepard and his dogs, listen to the stories, history and tradition and watch the dogs used as they were intended, I believe we'd be much more careful about our choice of words.

 

I'm never going to work the cows either, when what I have is a pasture full of steers or heifers.

 

cheers all,

[sheepandakom]

I'm never going to work the cows either, when what I have is a pasture full of steers or heifers.

 

 

That's one of my many language pet peeves. I just finished writing a paper for an animal law class I took this semester and could not believe how many times educated people referred to all cattle as "cows". It drives me crazy. I didn't quote it anywhere, but if I had, I probably would have replaced it with [cattle].

 

We don't call all sheep "ewes" or hogs "sows". I think it might be because the word cattle implies more than one. There really isn't a singular word for a bovine unless you identify its gender. I still think it's extremely annoying regardless of the reason.

 

Emily

[stockdogranch]

I'm never going to work the cows either, when what I have is a pasture full of steers or heifers

Or they're just generically "cattle" or, depending on age, maybe just "calves." And, as for semantic issues, I also prefer the term "cowdog" to "cattledog" (despite what the USBCHA calls the Finals) as to me a "cattledog" is an ACD.

 

A

[MagRam]

Hello all. Angel, I wouldn't recommend stockwork for your dog because of the seizures and the limiting medication, Pb. His reaction time will be slow even after he adjusts to the new dosage and there's a risk of injury as a result. Love him for what he is and what he isn't and let it go at that, would be my advice.

 

Regarding the "herding" discussion, i'm firmly in the "working" camp out of respect for the sheparding tradition. To know where you're going, you have to know where you've been and I never want to go "herding" with trite titles and meaningless tests. So, I'll stick with the shepards who elevated sheepdogs to an art form and spent hundreds of years painstakingly creating the world's greatest stockdog.

 

If everyone could spend one day with a UK or Irish hill shepard and his dogs, listen to the stories, history and tradition and watch the dogs used as they were intended, I believe we'd be much more careful about our choice of words.

 

I'm never going to work the cows either, when what I have is a pasture full of steers or heifers.

 

cheers all,

 

My use of the word "herding" is precisely out of respect for the shepherding tradition. I notice you had to misspell it "sheparding" in order to leave out the word "herding".

 

Anyway enough of this semantic discussion. We can each show respect for the tradition in our ouwn way. Just try not to be offended when someone uses the ancient word for what we do despite the fact that some are trying to call lesser activities that which we love whether called "herding" or "working". To paraphrase Shakespeare - "That which we call a rose, by any other name . . ."

 

As for me I am back to my efforts at working/herding - which based on our current skill level would have to be more accurately called attempted or apprentice working/herding.

 

And Anna - given the potential for confusion with ACD's I understand your preference for "cowdog"

[C Crocker]

Or they're just generically "cattle" or, depending on age, maybe just "calves." And, as for semantic issues, I also prefer the term "cowdog" to "cattledog" (despite what the USBCHA calls the Finals) as to me a "cattledog" is an ACD.

 

A

 

 

Anna,

 

By your example , for me, you have hit the nail on the head. It's the connotation of the word which may differ from person to person.

 

Personally I own a working border collie and I raise reined cowhorses. Makes sense to me, maybe not to all.

 

 

Carolyn

[Pearse]

A teacher teaches. A doctor doctors. A blacksmith smiths. A farmer farms. An engineer engineers. A writer writes. Do we denigrate any of their avocations by using the specific term for what they do instead of the more generic "work". I do not think so. That is why I don't think we can "all agree" not to use the word "herd" in its dictionary meaning which has thrived for 700 years.

 

The use of the word "herding" does not reduce what true herding is to some sort of game or "activity". Rather it is an accurate and more specific description of working livestock.

 

Let's not abandon the better word simply because some have chosen to dilute it.

 

A shepherd shepherds. He/She does not herd. Shepherding goes far beyond moving stock from point A to point B with a dog. Shepherding includes seeing to the health and welfare of the stock, and that is what I feel is being neglected among some people who are "going herding".

 

I have no problem with the use of the verb "to herd" in the following context: ' the shepherd used his dog to herd the flock from the pasture to the barn.

 

I dislike hearing, "me and my dog went herding this weekend", as opposed to "I took my dog to train to work sheep this weekend" which is usually what the person means.

 

The emphasis is different. In the first case, the impression is that you are off to do some activity and the stock is out of the picture. In the second, the emphasis is on learning to manage the stock which is where it ought to be.

 

You may think I'm being a pedantic stick-in-the-mud, and you may be right. However, if we don't keep the emphasis on the correct handling of livestock, the opportunities to do train our dogs will become fewer and fewer. I'm hearing it already from producers who were once willing to allow their stock to be used for trials and are now less willing to do so because they feel too many people aren't respecting the sheep.

[juliepoudrier]

You know the whole cow thing sort of baffles me. If it's a group, I say cattle. If it's a group of young female cattle I say heifers, young males, bulls, castrated males, steers. But if you glimpse a *cow* standing out in the field and don't know the age or gender, I just don't think it's so awful to call it a cow--at least most folks will know that you mean a bovine vs. say an ovine or swine. I guess I always sort of thought of the term cow as equivalent to the term sheep or the term horse--a generic term to describe the single animal of a species without reference to age or gender. I understand that cow more specifically means mature female bovine (unless you're trying to insult a mature female human, lol), but I thought it also more generally meant bovine. After all, if Anna is calling her dog a cowdog, does it work only mature female bovines?

 

Funny cowdog story: A fellow stopped by my house one day to ask me about my dogs. He looked at Twist and asked "Is that a cattle dog?" Not thinking in terms of breed (since we were talking about work), I just automatically said "Yes." Later in the conversation something came up about all the dogs and I said "They're all border collies." The guy gave me a funny look. Later it dawned on me that his original question hadn't been about whether the dog would work cattle but whether she was a cattledog (ACD) no doubt because of her smooth coat, prick ears, and ticking (though she looks nothing like an ACD to me), and so he must've thought I was off my rocker when, after admitting Twist was a cattledog, I then called her a border collie. Like Anna, I prefer the term cowdog for that reason, but it does then beg the question of whether the person calling a dog so just doesn't know how to properly refer to cattle!

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I use terms based on context. If I'm speaking of my activities somewhere besides contexts where most people know that if I talk about work, it's on livestock - then I use the correct terms. But the correct terms, while time honored, ARE more vague. The whole development of the misuse of "herding" came because of the influx of people who do it with little context, and so have to have a term that easily identifies what they do, to any audience.

 

"I work my dogs" means nothing to the majority of people. Even "I went for a lesson with my stock work instructor" results in blank looks 90% of the time. To most people in the world now, "stock" is now something traded on the Dow or NASDAQ.

 

So if I'm yakking over on Dog.com, I will say, "We're planning a herding clinic this weekend." Now all my readers are instantly on the same page. I can then start slipping in the terms "working" and "livestock" freely to "upgrade" the conversation.

 

While we are talking about how words shift around - watch how you snicker at the use of the word "cows" too. Those old Scottish shepherds we all venerate so much will also sometimes use cows to refer to any beef. Up until very recently, cattle in much of the UK meant any livestock, particularly larger stock like horses. To wit: "The cattle on a thousand hills" - the word translated in that Biblical phrase is "livestock" not bovines.

 

I totally understand the teeth-gritting quality of the title-chasers terminology and the desperate need to seperate the real deal from their activities. But I try to remember that although we respect the tradition of the hill shepherds, we aren't actually hill shepherds ourselves and also have to communicate to people who work in high rise offices and think all sheep are white with black faces and all cattle are cows.

[PSmitty]

^^ That's what I was thinking/trying to say.

 

I still find it unfortunate that such a harmless word or use of a word conjures up such negative images that people now shudder to hear it. Just out of curiousity, has it always been that way? I mean, once upon a time did real border collie people use "herding" or the like, back before the KC/Champion FancyPants folks ruined it for them?

[stockdogranch]

Paula: About sheep I don't know. I *do* know that all the old-time cattlemen (and women) that I have talked to, when doing some particular job with their stock such as loading chutes, vaccinating, branding, etc., have always "worked" their stock, whether with or without a dog,

 

And Julie: Yes, you're absolutely right--"cow" is used generically when one doesn't know the particulars of that bovine out in the field. I suppose I could call my dogs "bovine-working Border Collies," but that's pretty cumbersome , and actually, since they can and do work sheep (I was going to say just not at trials, but since we do a lot of setout, that wouldn't be correct, either--we just don't trial on sheep), and goats on occasion, that's why I prefer the term stockdog,

 

A

[juliepoudrier]

Thanks for the reply Anna. I always try to be specific when referring to livestock, but the cow thing has always puzzled me, since people seem to respond to the generic use of "cow" the way they do to the use of "herding," when I've often thought that cow was really the only appropriate generic term for bovines (at least in singular form). I asked the question for future reference so as not to offend cattle folk (any more than necessary, anyway, lol!).

 

BTW, cumbersome of not, bovine-working border collies has a certain ring to it!

 

I too generally just use the term stockdog, since at least some of them work multiple species as needed or in trials. But if someone asks me what my dogs are, I always say working border collies, not herding border collies.

 

J.

[MagRam]

A shepherd shepherds. He/She does not herd. Shepherding goes far beyond moving stock from point A to point B with a dog. Shepherding includes seeing to the health and welfare of the stock, and that is what I feel is being neglected among some people who are "going herding".

 

I have no problem with the use of the verb "to herd" in the following context: ' the shepherd used his dog to herd the flock from the pasture to the barn.

 

I dislike hearing, "me and my dog went herding this weekend", as opposed to "I took my dog to train to work sheep this weekend" which is usually what the person means.

 

The emphasis is different. In the first case, the impression is that you are off to do some activity and the stock is out of the picture. In the second, the emphasis is on learning to manage the stock which is where it ought to be.

 

You may think I'm being a pedantic stick-in-the-mud, and you may be right. However, if we don't keep the emphasis on the correct handling of livestock, the opportunities to do train our dogs will become fewer and fewer. I'm hearing it already from producers who were once willing to allow their stock to be used for trials and are now less willing to do so because they feel too many people aren't respecting the sheep.

 

 

Actually - literally a shepherd is one who herds sheep. That is what the word means and has always meant. Same as a goatherd is one who herds goats.

 

I am sorry that the word has been misused by so many recently to mean something far less than the complete work involved in herding and now gives you a different impression. However, just as you think we need to keep the emphasis on correct handling of livestock I feel we should try to be correct in our use of the English language. Although it would probably do no good we should try to correct those who use the term incorrectly. Instead you choose to use a different term which is inherently either less precise or more cumbersome. That is your choice and I respect it. I'm sorry if my use of the time honored terms offends you because of its recent dilution.

 

Edit to add - BTW While I do not earn a living or financial remuneration for my work with my dog and sheep and certainly not as accomplished as many on this list - including some whom I know personally who have joined this discussion - we certainly approach our time with sheep as work to accomplish a specific task and have respect for all involved - dogs, livestock, trainers, other people working their dogs. At this point - given our level of accomplishment - we are at best apprentice shepherds.

[PennyT]

Names are important because they carry cultural impact. Ask a friend to lunch. Choose “Want to go to lunch?” or “Let’s do lunch.” Poor grammar is not the explanation of the latter’s unpleasant connotation; rather the reason is the phrase’s yuppie association.

 

The more I research the history of livestock working dogs in this country, the more committed I become to calling my dogs “collies,” as is still a common practice in the British Isles, rather than “border collies.” In fact, I suspect the term “border collie” was eventually used by the ISDS because Reid and others realized a marketing tool was necessary to get people outside of the UK to import good working dogs without being confused by the overwhelming branding of the term “collie” by AKC, breed clubs, and breeders, a brand name recognition that never developed in Great Britain.

 

Someone remarked: “I notice [Amelia] had to misspell it "sheparding" in order to leave out the word "herding". Like “culley” or “coolie” rather than “collie,” the word “shepherd” has several variations and “shepard” is one of them.

 

“Herding” trotted into everyday usage with early plans for an AKC herding program around the time that the AHBA started up. Originally intended as a bridge program that would fade when AKC herding got rolling, AHBA thrived. Once the AKC herding program started, anyone whose orientation was AKC could be identified with a fair amount of accuracy (not 100 percent but far higher than simple chance) by a statement like, “We went to a herding trial last weekend.” I avoid the term because it brings to mind scenes of AKC trials; layered beneath those are concerns for the breed that full recognition brought.

 

Just as our dogs lost their original name when the AKC and collie clubs co-opted public perception of dogs called “collies,” the transformation of stock dog activities into herding is a sign that the dog fancy is making inroads into training, handling, and trialing.

[NRhodes]

I have talked to several people in Canada who refer to border collies as just 'collies' and the first few times I heard it I had to stop and think to figure out what they meant as for me the word conjured up images of 'Lassie'. Language is a funny thing.

[Caroline Reichard]

Some people say "soda," some people say "pop." Some are (or hope to be) "rich," others want to be "wealthy." To the trained linguist, your vocabulary identifies you, just as it did Eliza Doolittle to Henry Higgins.

 

For better or worse, when a person "goes herding with their BC," they have very clearly identified themselves to those who see bigger fields with no fences to protect them from mistakes, to confine their ambitions, or to make a mockery of their skills. And the identification is not a fortunate one since "herding" is such a dimished form of the work that goes on in those big fields.

 

Some people with a lot of credentialing and/or history in the stockdog world have been very politely telling others of you that "herding with your BC" is offensive to the point of rudeness, and they have gone to great lengths to exlain why.

 

If you don't mind being identified with an arena sport with delusions of legitimacy, well, good for you. You can talk all you like about etymology and how words don't matter, but to those of us who remember the birth of the AKC herding culture, you might as well be cussin' in front of grandma. Go tell her that words don't matter. She might pretend to accept your explanation, but she sure as hell won't ask you into the parlor in front of company.

[SoloRiver]

Some are (or hope to be) "rich," others want to be "wealthy."

 

I like Chris Rock's explanation of this distinction.

 

 

(Do not click if you have a problem with four letter words, or lack a sense of humor, or take yourself too seriously.)

 

An opposing viewpoint:

 

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04142/319841-153.stm

 

(This link is safe to click on if you are a more sensitive type.)

 

Back on topic: I say "working" and "I am going to work my dogs on sheep" and things like that. Probably because I have never been involved in AKC or AHBA and have never picked up the "herding" lingo, although I am also comfortable conversing with people who use that language.

 

There are a lot of people out there in dog sports land who are conscientious, well-meaning, and respectful of working traditions and would probably make fine "converts" to the world of working Border Collies, but they get scared off by what is perceived as an inhospitable attitude by "herding people." They are actually afraid to come to sheepdog trials because they think people will look down on them and be rude to them. I understand why this conversation is taking place but I am not sure that it is always constructive. I mean, the type of people who are the most sensitive to these kinds of things are also probably the type of people who are most respectful and thoughtful and maybe the type of people who we should try not to scare off.

 

I am a weekend warrior (sorry to anyone offended by that term) by which I mean I don't have sheep and my dogs don't have to work for a living and when they do work, they work someone else's sheep. What we do is basically pointless from the viewpoint of animal husbandry. We may have sheep someday, but we don't have any now and probably won't have any for quite a while. I respect the tradition we participate in and never went the title route because I wanted to experience the real thing, not some sad facsimile that is so far from the real thing that show-bred Corgis can participate in it. But when it comes down to it, no matter how respectful or thoughtful I am, the reason we work sheep (not that we get to do it so often these days -- ever since I finished grad school my free time has been considerably curtailed) is for fun. My dogs enjoy it, I enjoy it, and I enjoy how much my dogs seem to get out of it. I also enjoy knowing the people I have gotten to know through working dogs.

 

I am not sure there is really a bright line on this issue in terms of right vs. wrong, valid vs. invalid, etc. Or if there is, I guess by a really strict reading, I and my dogs are on the wrong side of it.

[PennyT]

"I am a weekend warrior (sorry to anyone offended by that term) by which I mean I don't have sheep and my dogs don't have to work for a living and when they do work, they work someone else's sheep. What we do is basically pointless from the viewpoint of animal husbandry."

 

I'm not offended by the term in the least, and I don't make the distinction based on husbandry. I make the distinction based on the track record of the AKC, its breed clubs,and breeders in changing breeds for the worse.

[PSmitty]

Thank you for that post, Melanie.

 

(I'll check out the links later...I bet Chris Rock's is hilarious!)

[NCStarkey]

Hello everyone,

 

Regarding the terminology people use to refer to the activities in which they are involved with their dogs, Caroline wrote:

 

"If you don't mind being identified with an arena sport with delusions of legitimacy, well, good for you. You can talk all you like about etymology and how words don't matter, but to those of us who remember the birth of the AKC herding culture, you might as well be cussin' in front of grandma. Go tell her that words don't matter. She might pretend to accept your explanation, but she sure as hell won't ask you into the parlor in front of company."

 

This analogy is simply too funny and oh so true! Way to go, Caroline!

 

To get back to Angel's original query, here is my shovelful about her epileptic dog working livestock. I, too, have a dog that currently requires medication to remain seizure-free, and the drug's effects cause not only physical limitations, but mental impairment, as well. My dog is a well trained sheepdog, and even when she seems not to be affected physically, she is definitely affected mentally by the drugs. Because of the drugs, her confidence level is reduced, her mental stamina is decreased, and her overall cognitive ability is impaired. So, even though Angel's dog seems to acclimate to the increases in her seizure medication physically, it is highly unlikely that her dog is unaffected mentally by the drugs. So, my suggestion to Angel is to enjoy her dog, but without pursuing working sheepdog activities.

 

Regards to all,

nancy

[Caroline Reichard]

Nancy wrote: "This analogy is simply too funny and oh so true! Way to go, Caroline!"

 

Thanks, Nancy, I was just in the mood to try and channnel the voice of an old friend, now dead, who I thought would surely have an opinion on this thread.

 

Nancy wrote: "To get back to Angel's original query, here is my shovelful about her epileptic dog working livestock. I, too, have a dog that currently requires medication to remain seizure-free, and the drug's effects cause not only physical limitations, but mental impairment, as well. .. my suggestion to Angel is to enjoy her dog, but without pursuing working sheepdog activities."

 

I have also had a talented dog with epilepsy. I had to put her down because we couldn't control her seizures, but before that I got a full dose of what working a dog on seizure meds was like. I would also echo Nacy and Amelia's suggestion to enjoy your dog but not to start working livestock.

[Bordermix]

A little off topic here but I have dog (non border collie) that is epileptic, is in fly ball and is great at it! He loves going to fly ball. My vet suggests that life remain as normal as possible, and if the meds are working, there is no reason to keep him from a sport he loves! If his epilepsy gets worse in the future, we will, of course, think of his health, first. But for now, we both enjoy fly ball and there is no reason to stop.

[Pippin's person]

One of the first times we brought our dogs to see sheep, I was working with Pippin in the round pen. At one point, the trainer called out, "That little bitch needs to slow down or there's going to be trouble."

 

I like to use this example when I talk to my students about word meanings (like Anna, I'm also a linguist) because the first referent that most students think of for "bitch" is a human female and they also see it as a "bad" word. Of course, as soon as I offer a little bit of context for the comment, students immediately get that the trainer was talking about a dog not a person and they immediately see it as a perfectly fine, non-taboo word.

 

If you pay attention to who uses the term "bitch" when referring to dogs, it's almost always people who are deeply involved in some kind of pursuit that involves dogs--in my experience, it's very rare for "regular" pet owners to refer to their dog as a "bitch" and personally, I feel like a poser if I try to use it to refer to a dog.

 

The first dictionary meaning in the Oxford English Dictionary (and Merriam-Webster, and I'd wager virtually any English dictionary) for "bitch" is "The female of the dog." But, that's clearly not the meaning most English speakers have as primary anymore. No amount of claiming to be correct or appealing to the dictionary can change that--meaning is always the property of a community of users.

 

That's part of what makes the kinds of discussions going on here with respect to "herd" so interesting--It's not just that language is always changing (which of course it is), but also that communities of users actively engage in (as we see here in real time) the business of working out what words can/should/must mean. It's fascinating because these discussion point out how connected to culture language really is. I also think it points out (as do most discussions about language) that our linguistic choices are never neutral--like Caroline and Penny both said, our choices link us immediately with particular groups, particular points of view or particular persuasions whether we wish them to or not.

 

From the beginning of our journey learning to handle livestock, our trainers have used the term "work". So, that's what we use too--in the context of learning the culture, we also learned the associated vocabulary used by the people in that culture. The people I hear use the term "herd" are people not specifically involved in practical farm work/open USBCHA trialling, etc. Of course, that's the vast majority of people. Still, I find that "herd" users understand me perfectly well when I talk about "working with my dogs."

 

So, I find it easiest to think along the lines of "cross-cultural" communication. I've found that I'm much more persuasive with "herd"-users if I talk about the differences between the tasks asked of the dogs than if I talk about why they should use "work" rather than "herd." In other words, I find that as I talk more about the context of "working" vs. "herding", people become much more interested in finding out about the "work."

 

ETA: Not to claim that I know all that much about the work--just that I also worry, like Melanie, that folks who might be pretty sympathetic get turned off by the semantic discussion before they really have a chance to understand the cultural context of the issues involved.

[MagRam]

One of the first times we brought our dogs to see sheep, I was working with Pippin in the round pen. At one point, the trainer called out, "That little bitch needs to slow down or there's going to be trouble."

 

I like to use this example when I talk to my students about word meanings (like Anna, I'm also a linguist and teach at a university) because the first referent that most students think of for "bitch" is a human female and they also see it as a "bad" word. Of course, as soon as I offer a little bit of context for the comment, students immediately get that the trainer was talking about a dog not a person and they immediately see it as a perfectly fine, non-taboo word.

 

If you pay attention to who uses the term "bitch" when referring to dogs, it's almost always people who are deeply involved in some kind of pursuit that involves dogs--in my experience, it's very rare for "regular" pet owners to refer to their dog as a "bitch" and personally, I feel like a poser if I try to use it to refer to a dog.

 

The first dictionary meaning in the Oxford English Dictionary (and Merriam-Webster, and I'd wager virtually any English dictionary) for "bitch" is "The female of the dog." But, that's clearly not the meaning most English speakers have as primary anymore. No amount of claiming to be correct or appealing to the dictionary can change that--meaning is always the property of a community of users.

 

That's part of what makes the kinds of discussions going on here with respect to "herd" so interesting--It's not just that language is always changing (which of course it is), but also that communities of users actively engage in (as we see here in real time) the business of working out what words can/should/must mean. It's fascinating because these discussion point out how connected to culture language really is. I also think it points out (as do most discussions about language) that our linguistic choices are never neutral--like Caroline and Penny both said, our choices link us immediately with particular groups, particular points of view or particular persuasions whether we wish them to or not.

 

From the beginning of our journey learning to handle livestock, our trainers have used the term "work". So, that's what we use too--in the context of learning the culture, we also learned the associated vocabulary used by the people in that culture. The people I hear use the term "herd" are people not specifically involved in practical farm work/open USBCHA trialling, etc. Of course, that's the vast majority of people. Still, I find that "herd" users understand me perfectly well when I talk about "working with my dogs."

 

So, I find it easiest to think along the lines of "cross-cultural" communication. I've found that I'm much more persuasive with "herd"-users if I talk about the differences between the tasks asked of the dogs than if I talk about why they should use "work" rather than "herd." In other words, I find that as I talk more about the context of "working" vs. "herding", people become much more interested in finding out about the "work."

 

ETA: Not to claim that I know all that much about the work--just that I also worry, like Melanie, that folks who might be pretty sympathetic get turned off by the semantic discussion before they really have a chance to understand the cultural context of the issues involved.

 

 

OK I give. I just got back from working my bitch. And so I will use the term most seem to prefer. Too busy working the dog on sheep to coontinue the discussion.

[SoloRiver]

A little off topic here but I have dog (non border collie) that is epileptic, is in fly ball and is great at it! He loves going to fly ball. My vet suggests that life remain as normal as possible, and if the meds are working, there is no reason to keep him from a sport he loves! If his epilepsy gets worse in the future, we will, of course, think of his health, first. But for now, we both enjoy fly ball and there is no reason to stop.

 

Sure, but flyball and herding or working or whatever you want to call it are basically apples and zebras. There's no comparison. If your dog can't concentrate so well or loses focus in flyball, which is about as far from a complex activity as one could do with a Border Collie, the worst thing that happens is he'll be kinda slow or he'll drop the ball before he gets back across the line. Yes, I have done flyball, and yes, I actually think it is very fun -- but it is practically mindless and the fastest dogs operate as robots following a simple routine that is so ingrained it has essentially become muscle memory.

 

Working stock is infinitely more complex, and requires a lot more from the dog mentally. Trying to work a dog who's having an off day is an exercise in frustration for everyone involved, particularly if the idea is to progress over time.

 

I think that individual dogs respond differently to seizure meds and that it MAY be possible for a dog being treated for epilepsy to be able to work stock, but never having tried to do so I don't know for sure. I do know that attempting to work my dog who is on behavioral meds when he was OFF his meds was not successful. It is kind of an opposite situation -- he needs the drugs, and is at his best when he is on the meds, and he is anxious and "fuzzy" when he is off of them. I think that trying to work a dog who is on seizure meds might be kind of like trying to work my dog when he is med-free and if that's the case, I wouldn't do it.