3 legged Jill

[nancy in AZ]

Jill suddenly went from travelling completely normally to three legged lame after napping on her bed under my desk here at the office this morning. She is carrying her right hind entirely off the ground when she moves. She'll put down, but without weight-bearing when at a standstill. I've checked for heat and soreness via palpation and range of motion, and gotten no reaction. She can bend it, straighten it, and lay down on it without any apparent discomfort. I'm wondering about the possibility of a luxating patella. Any ideas or suggestions?

[JohnLloydJones]

No suggestions, but sending her our best wishes and hoping that she gets well soon.

[sweet_ceana]

Poor Jill! I send my well wishes as well, I wish I had an idea of what could cause it. Could it have fallen asleep? Maybe the tingly feeling made her nervous and she is just being cautious? How long has she been avoiding using it?

[2 Devils]

If it continues you should have her checked for a torn ccl.

[nancy in AZ]

She's presenting intermittently now. Since we got home, she's gone from running around on all fours, walking, standing, turning, jumping, racing etc, to hiking the leg on and off. Normal--lame, normal--lame, often for lengthy periods, though the lame periods appear briefly now. Could a CCL tear present symptoms like this? I would't think so.

[Laurae]

TBD?

[denice]

I just had a similar episode with my 5 yr old. He was just fine then came from the bedroom walking on 3 legs, holding up a rear leg. Then he would only limp or be 3 legged in the house especially after lying down - never outside. This went on for a week, I tryed Rimadyl but that didn't make any difference. Took him to one vet concerned about his knee. She said it was not his knee but the lameness continued only in the house for a month. I took him to another vet and she suspected some soft tissue damage but not a tear anywhere. I then put him on Duramax and broke the dosage into twice a day instead of just once a day. 5 days later no limp anytime and he is always wanting to outside to play or work.

 

If your dog is walking with just a bit of toe touching or standing up on those toes it is usally a knee problem.

All the best,

 

Denice

[momtotwo]

My older guy has been doing something similar. Notice it after he's been lying down usually. My vet thinks it's his hips. I started him on glucosimine daily and ASA if I feel he's in pain. Not sure if it's the same or not!

[herdcentral]

She's presenting intermittently now. Since we got home, she's gone from running around on all fours, walking, standing, turning, jumping, racing etc, to hiking the leg on and off. Normal--lame, normal--lame, often for lengthy periods, though the lame periods appear briefly now. Could a CCL tear present symptoms like this? I would't think so.

 

Yes my dog has had bilateral CCL surgery and both her legs presented this way. The first one went on for 6 months like this, the local vet said it was nothing to worry about. An Orthodvet diagnosed it finally. Her second leg was diagnosed after months of intermittant lameness - she was sound more than lame and was very active, so I didnt think much of it until the same Orthovet said it was her CCL. The CCL finally ruptured a couple of days before surgery.

 

I would rest her and take her on leash walks - no running and jumping and see how she goes. Better still get a diagnosis as different problems require different management. If managed correctly a partial CCL tear does not always require surgery but a complete rupture does.

 

An apparently simple injury like a sprain not properly allowed to heal can also come back to haunt you.

[nancy in AZ]

She's been entirely without symptoms since last night. Thanks for the sound advice, although, keeping her quiet will be like trying to contain a tornado. Our walks are always on leash, and she comes with me to the office every day so I can keep her quiet here. It's limiting her playtime with Boo at home and in the yard that will be challenging. What diagnostics are necessary for an accurate prognosis? Can this be diagnosed via ultrasound?

[2 Devils]

Yes CCL tears can show intermittent lameness. My acd had it in one leg for 2 yrs before the knee blew out. She had it in the other leg for 7 months before she blew that one out. 2 TPLO surgeries later she is doing great. Toe touching is a big sign of CCL issues. Foster would stand with toes touching but walk normal at times. Sometimes she walked with a limp and never toe-touched. And in between she would go months without any symptoms.

 

Yes please rest for at least a week, possibly more. Start normal activities slowly and work up to usual activity.

[herdcentral]

A ccl injury is generally diagnosed by manipulation by the vet. They detect what they call a drawer symptom which I think is due to some mobility in the knee. Slight tears are probably a little more difficult although my orthovet could feel some slight thickening which indicated to her that it was likely her CCL starting to go.

 

I know how hard it is to convince a dog to rest, my cruciate dog (an ACD) is an agility tornado and I had to take her through 2 TPLO surgeries - a total of 8-10 months rehab. Not so fun but she did get back to agility and did very well before I retired her this year and she continues to be sound and active.

 

I would start out leash walking her several times a day walking and slow trotting and if you havnt seen limping for about 7-10 days then start trotting her at a faster pace and keep working her up to full exercise. Often it is suggested that you increase her exercise level in blocks of 7-10 days if there is no limping.

 

Try the orthodogs and conservative management yahoo groups. They have a great deal of information and knowledgeable people on those sites. If it is a CCL tear and you mange her right you have a chance of avoiding surgery. The orthodogs moderator who is very knowledgable has a BC with a CCL tear that did not require surgery but once it progresses, surgery is the only option.

 

Good luck and fingers crossed it is not the dreaded CCL.

[ness_bc]

Might be worth trying to find a dog chiro/muscle person.

[nancy in AZ]

Does this condition typically occur bilaterally? How likely is it to occur in the other knee if she has it in this one?

[herdcentral]

Does this condition typically occur bilaterally? How likely is it to occur in the other knee if she has it in this one?

 

It can occur bilaterally and often does but not always. Depends on what was the cause , sometimes it can be the dogs conformation such as straight in the stifle or the tibial angle is bad, overweight is often a factor, has being doing repetitive exercise type like jumping up and landing repeatedly on the back legs. Or it could be just an accident.

 

The heavy bodied dogs or overweight dogs with straighter stifles are proably more likely to have both go. One would think a BC might be less prone.

[2 Devils]

Many times it does happen in both knees and Herdcentral gave some reasons why.

 

My ACD's TPLO's were all injury based. At the age of 2 my hubby was out playing with her and she saw a neighbor she loves (rare for her) and ran across the parking lot. On her return she ran into a moving car. This caused her to break hard and back out. She also had a flyball accident and all the frisbee playing. Let's not forget that she also runs into things because of focus. Needless to say her left CCL was injured but they felt only stretched. We rested her for 2 months. Well a couple years later she starts limping on the right leg after some frisbee play with friends. The vets found nothing wrong. We did not pay much attention. If she limped she was rested for a couple weeks followed by water rehab. Go forward a couple years and she blows out her right CCL. 2 years after that she blows the left one out. We were expecting the left one to go first but it fooled us.

[herdcentral]

Yes my ACD is a demon for her ball and very athletic - love to jump high for it when it bounced, couple this with the fact that she was quite a heavily built dog and I started to notice her limping one day but it dissapeared and then reaapeared occasionally untill one day the CCL finally tore. She is probaly also a little straighter in the stifle than I would like, certainly morE so than my other ACDS.

 

It was 5 years before the next one went despite me keeping her lean and preventing her doing the high flying ball leaping maneauvers she loves. She is still a maniac and loved her agility and there was probably already wear and tear from the early years. She is the type of dog that throws herself into everything with great enthusiasm and without any care for her body - typical ACD really.

 

The BCs I know with CCL problems have mainly been through accidents. In general their beautiful lean, lightweight, well angled body type makes them less susceptible despite their athletic abilities and high speed turns.

[sweet_ceana]

How is Jill doing, still no limping? I really hope she is alright. Poor girl would have no luck if it weren't for bad luck..

[nancy in AZ]

Haven't seen any lameness since the day it showed up, but thought she took a couple of isolated odd steps on Wed. I wasn't sure if I actually saw something, but having dealt with Otis' subtle lameness issues for the past decade, I've learned to believe that perception is reality. So I'm keeping her on the d.l. (disabled list-- not down-low) for the near term. She wasn't happy about not joining in the fun with Boo and Kit when we all went for a walk during the snow storm. I actually had my hand on the leash to unclip her when I remembered, oh wait, you're not allowed to run free.

 

I haven't seen any tip-toe stance. Is that something that's evident even when there is no obvious lameness with CCL injuries?

[herdcentral]

My dog never tip toed when her second cruciate was failing, only when it finally failed. The first leg she did tip toe a little when she was standing. I also tend to agree with the perception being reality.

 

When I walked my dog on the beach I could see that although she looked reasonably normal that the print she made with her first CCL leg when it was going was subtley fainter so I new she was carrying less weight on it. I dont know if this works in snow.

 

CCL can be very deceptive. Even though I went through the first one I didnt recognise the second one because it was so subtle and intermittant at the start. She was competing in agility at the time and seemed totally unaffected for most of the time with the occassional hop and skip which went away as quickly as it showed and often didnt reappear for weeks and then only for a day at most. It wasnt untill she was having a checkup with my orthovet who is a family member that she told me that she could feel a slight thickening in her knee and that it was almost certainly her cruciate in the early stages of failing.

 

I would just continue leash walking her for the moment. If it is a sprain or strain it needs the rest anyway and if it is a mild cruciate tear it will give the knee a chance to build scar tissue and stabilise the knee hopefully avoiding surgery. A pain I know but worth it in the long run. Surgery is definitely something to avoid if possible.

 

Hopefully it will resolve with management and it may not be a CCL anyway

[nancy in AZ]

It seems some kind of anti-inflammatory would be in order under the circumstances as well. Any suggestions? I have rimadyl on hand but maybe I should start her on some MSM to avoid possible side effects if this will be a longer term therapy. What about acupuncture/chiro? I do have access to a holistic vet. Thanks for all your feedback.

[herdcentral]

You could use rimadyl if you have it on hand. I personally would only use it if she is limping and not for more than a week at a time at full dose. My vet said to go 1 week at full dose and 1 week at half dose and keep your dog on light exercise during this period. If the dog does not respond in the first couple of days then dont continue. Some conditions respond and others dont. I cant remember exactly but I think muscles tears tend not to respond as well to antinflams

 

The problem with use of antinflams past the acute phase is that they can mask your dogs pain and give you an artificial sense of the dog having recovered which may encourage further damage so keep up with the management plan during this time.

 

I think the glucosamine type supplements are good, all my dogs are on these and fish oil. I have also just ordered a hyaluronic acid paste I think it is called Conquer K9 and was highly recommended by the orthodog moderator as a joint supplement. I also give my dog cartrophen/ adequan injections every 3 months. All this supports joint health which is usefull in cruciate, osteoarthritis and dysplasias.

 

I have used accupuncture and chiro for my dogs and have found it to be helpful.

 

Really at the moment you dont know what you are dealing with. My first instinct with niggling ortho problems if they havnt resolved within a month of determined management is to go to an orthovet which is reletively easy in my case. I usually by pass the local general practice vets because subtle ortho problems can be surprisingly hard to diagnose and it saves time and money in the long run.