Advice re: sisters dog

[ArchersMomma]

As some of you may know we are travelling to spend the holidays with my family for x-mas and taking Archer with us. We will be staying with my sister who has an un-neutered St. Bernard (Timber) who is about two and an un-neutered Sheppard cross (Charlie).

 

Timber is typical St. Bernard and pretty much un-phased by anything except food and even then he just drools more. He's docile and non-plussed by most things, including other dogs.

 

Charlie however, is a different ballgame altogether. He's aggressive, plain and simple. I've been after my sister for years to have him neutered but she just can't afford it (very long story that I'd rather not go into). She does not know much about training dogs (or chooses not to is more likely but that's ANOTHER story ).

 

I plan to spend some time teaching her what I know (which is precious little but FAR more than she knows) when I'm there and training Charlie to understand that he is nowhere NEAR top of the pack. He thinks that next to her, HE is the alpha dog...above everyone else in the family including her husband and two small children (7 & 4). He attacks other dogs routinely if he can, but more particularly if they are strange and IN his house...which I can understand (especially for an intact male) but would NEVER allow.

 

MY concern right at the moment is how to protect Archer while we are there. Right now he is fairly social and good with other dogs. I am worried that if he attempts to be "friendly" with Charlie and gets attacked, how is it going to affect him? I am obviously going to keep a very close eye on both dogs and try my very best to ensure this does not happen. I will also be letting Charlie know that he may THINK he is alpha with every other human in his world but not with me! I'm just worried about that two second window where I may not be present and he does get AT Archer. Will it seriously traumatize him? Are there things I can do to introduce them and find a way to avoid this situation happening? (other than leave Archer behind since that's not an option).

 

Sorry this got long.

[MaggieDog]

Can you stay at a hotel?? You're just asking for an attack if you bring your dog into that household and it is not fair to anyone to do that. A single attack can have serious long term effects on any dog...

[Pippin's person]

In that situation, honestly, I wouldn't let them be together at all--whether supervised or not.

 

I think it's great to work with Charlie (and your sister) on basic manners and training, but there's a limit to what you can achieve in such a short time. If it were me (and it sort of has been--though with an aggressive kitty who HATED having a dog in his space), I'd just keep Archer or Charlie crated (or otherwise separated--maybe one outside, one inside or in separate rooms or something like that). I just wouldn't want to risk having my dog have a bad experience (or worse) with a dog I knew had attacked other dogs.

 

If you do decide to let them be together, I'd wait at least a couple of days before you let them interact directly with one another, even under supervision. That way, Charlie can at least get used to Archer's smell and general presence. But that's still no guarantee and personally, I wouldn't do it.

 

JMO of course

[Root Beer]

Do you have permission from your sister to train her dog? I don't mean to get on your case, but if someone came into my house - anyone, relative or not, and he or she tried to show one of my dogs in some way that he or she was "alpha", the human guest would be told in no uncertain terms not to mess with my dogs. My dogs in my home are treated as I see fit. I am happy to restrict my dog's access to any person who thinks otherwise, but nobody comes into my home and practices dominance theory with my dogs. Nobody.

 

I actually had to do that with my father who was about to smack Speedy with a newspaper when he was a puppy. I had to remind him that Speedy was my dog and make sure he understood that my dogs are not hit under any circumstances.

 

If you have her permission, that's one thing, but if you don't, please discuss this with her before you go. Undisciplined or not, Charlie is her dog.

 

As for Charlie and Archer, is there any way you could arrange for them to be separated? It's a pain, I know, but better to restrict Archer's freedom a bit more than usual than to have him go through being attacked. Perhaps your sister could keep Charlie in a room part of the time so Archer can be free and you can crate Archer when Charlie is free?

 

Personally, I wouldn't risk my dog being attacked if I really thought that was a possibility. It might be fine, but the questions you raise if something happens are very real concerns.

[Shetlander]

I'm just worried about that two second window where I may not be present and he does get AT Archer.

 

Don't give him a two second window to attack Archer. Keep the dogs apart at all times -- except maybe going for a walk with both dogs on leashes (if the person holding on to Charlie's leash can keep him under control). Keep Archer crated or the dogs in separate rooms otherwise. Don't let them outside to play together, even with supervison. This is only a visit. There is no need for these two dogs to learn how to get along or become friends. I wouldn't run the risk of my pup being injured or developing bad habits from being around a maladjusted adult.

 

You aren't going to fix Charlie or the situation during what I'm sure you want to be a pleasant family visit. Even if you did get Charlie to shape up a bit while you were there, I'd guess the chances to be huge that he'd go right back to old behaviors once you left. Personally, I'd focus on damage control as far as keeping my own dog safe. If you feel your sister's kids are at risk because of Charlie, you can mention it to her but not sure how much weight that will carry with her. Many people are perfectly fine with their untrained, badly mannered dogs and have no intention of changing the living situation.

[afrancis]

He attacks other dogs routinely if he can, but more particularly if they are strange and IN his house...

...MY concern right at the moment is how to protect Archer while we are there. Right now he is fairly social and good with other dogs. I am worried that if he attempts to be "friendly" with Charlie and gets attacked, how is it going to affect him?

 

Boy, I don't envy you anymore!

Your Christmas could be very stressful....

Since we won't go into your sister and her choices ( she's your sister, after all -- I have my own ), you are wise to want to take steps to protect your dog. And since you are visiting, unfortunately, I think it is Archer who is going to have to be limited in terms of his freedom in your sister's house. You're staying with her, right? For how long?

 

It is probably unrealistic to think you can change Charlie's behaviour in the short time that you're there, plus your sister may or may not be amenable to participating in this. Plus even though you say that you will make sure Charlie knows that he is "not the boss of you" - so to speak - this behaviour may already be entrenched in the household -- i.e. he may be resistant to hearing this from anyone but your sister (and maybe not even her!)

 

Since you already know that he will attack, esp a dog he doesn't know and esp in his own house, I think you have proceed on the assumption that Archer's presence will probably not be accepted without incident. If it were me, I would ensure that (i) Archer meet both dogs one-by-one (even a relatively docile dog could change behaviour when its acting as part of a 'pack') in a neutral location first, if this is possible (i.e. a local park); (ii) Archer is physically separated from Charlie in the house at all times (bring baby gates if you have them); (iii) Archer was never lose in the house with Charlie without your ability to immediately intervene; (iv) limit toys if Charlie is at all possessive (these may provoke an attack); (v) be vigilant if you decide its going well and you let them socialize freely -- I might suggest having a collar and short leash on each of them to facilitate separating them if necessary. This is a good idea anyway for Archer -- to make sure he has his collar with ID on at all times (you may want to amend his ID by including your cell phone # or your sister's # while you're there).

 

I think my biggest concern would be injury rather than a change of character in Archer. BTW, do you know if Charlie's attacks have ever drawn blood or been serious? Or just posturing? If Archer is dog savvy at all, his persona-non-grata reception by Charlie, will, first, be understood, and second, be remembered for later. But if Charlie hasn't been socialized well and hasn't learnt that bluster is all that's needed, he won't understand if Archer says "uncle." Skye has been put in her place by several GSD types and now, each time she sees one, approaches very gingerly, if at all.

 

I'm sure others will have more suggestions for you.

Good luck!

Ailsa

 

P.S. I see as I've been writing this you've already got a bunch of answers............

[Kenbo]

I don't think I would take your dog, can you put him in a kennel or leave him with a friend???

[NorthfieldNick]

At this point, I'd leave my dog behind. I know you said it wasn't an option, but taking Archer is only going to make the holiday stressful for both you & the dog(s). Isn't the point of travelling for the holidays to enjoy the time? If you're constantly on guard with the dogs, the tension will carry over into everything else. Why even let it start?

 

If you MUST take Archer, stay somewhere else. It would be well worth the cost of a hotel or rental for the peace of mind you'll have knowing your dog is safe. If Archer does get attacked, it could cost you far more in behavioural training & time to repair the damage than it would to stay in a hotel for a few nights.

[PSmitty]

If you MUST take Archer, stay somewhere else. It would be well worth the cost of a hotel or rental for the peace of mind you'll have knowing your dog is safe. If Archer does get attacked, it could cost you far more in behavioural training & time to repair the damage than it would to stay in a hotel for a few nights.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself!

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

I agree with Northfield Nick, the stress will totally spill over into everything else. You should either not take him or stay at a dog friendly hotel.

One question no one else has asked...are either of your sister's dogs crate trained? I would highly recommend to "crate and rotate" if you have to take Archer. Keep the separated at all times! I don't even know if separating them by a room would work if your sisters dog is as agressive as it sounds. He won't be able to focus on anything else and will constantly be trying to get through the door to the dog on the other side.

If Archer does get attacked, you could end up spending a lot of time and money on vet bills and trying to fix any mental/emotional trauma that may happen. I don't know how old he is, but still fairly young right? It could turn him off other dogs quite easily. I know this first hand. Daisy started out slightly aloof to other dogs, not scared, but really more interested in what the people were doing. She got attacked 3 times before she was a year and she's now dog agressive.

[Maralynn]

If you MUST take Archer, stay somewhere else. It would be well worth the cost of a hotel or rental for the peace of mind you'll have knowing your dog is safe. If Archer does get attacked, it could cost you far more in behavioural training & time to repair the damage than it would to stay in a hotel for a few nights.

 

Agree 110%

 

I would not be taking one of my dogs into that sort of situation - it's not fair to them. If I had to take them along, I would be staying at a hotel and the dogs would stay in the car when I was with the relatives.

[JohnLloydJones]

In the more optimistic scenario, your dog, being younger (correct?) and in strange surroundings would simply act submissive and defuse the situation. In a more pessimistic scenario, your "two second window " situation could explode right in front of you. As much as you want to hope for the best, you should plan for the worst; having to keep the separated at all times. I personally wouldn't think that a baby gate is much value if the dogs decide that they want to tear each other apart. Be sure that you have a solid crate and a room where you can keep it behind a closed door. A lot depends on how much you and your sister can cooperate to make things go smoothly; I agree with others that trying to manage or train her dog could backfire unless she is willing.

[urge to herd]

One comment on human family relationships - planning to teach your sister something, anything, without her asking you to is, in my experience, a set up for disaster. Your sis may be just fine with how her dog behaves, thank you, and resent the you know what out of your offers to help. And, (all right, two comments) no one needs more tension at family gatherings.

 

A comment about dog relationships: Shoshone has the kind of personality where if a human puts any pressure on her, she'll defer, but then take it out on another dog or cat over the next few days, or even a couple weeks later. It's one of her more charming attributes. There will enough pressure on all the humans and the dogs as it is. For you to do anything other than the neccessary with Charlie could turn way ugly, way fast, and have way long lasting repercussions, not only for Archer, but for your sis's family and her dogs.

 

Please consider the other posters' advice, keep them separated period. It's the safest thing short and long term.

 

Ruth

[ThunderHill]

If there are small children involved, your dog will probably not be safe even in a crate.

 

I once watched from the other side of my own dining room table as my brother's oldest son (who is NOT generally a bad kid, and who I'm sure did NOT truly understand the consequences of what he was doing -- he was simply tired, cranky, a little mutinous and a lot curious -- a perfectly normal and predictable holiday condition) walked right up to the crate where one of my dogs was recuperating from major invasive surgery, opened the latch, and let the dog out. High drive young dog, not the nicest creature in the world, absolutely determined to maximize his opportunity to bust loose. My nephew was probably 5 years old at the time. Maybe 6.

 

I had told him before not to go near that crate. His parents had clearly backed me up. He knew he was not supposed to do it.

 

In fact, I was telling him in very firm tones to NOT DO THAT, and simultaneously moving as swiftly as possible from my side of the table to the other corner of the room (where the child and dog crate were), and the child still got the door open and let the dog out before I could intervene.

 

Thankfully, no harm was done to either party. (Except my voice dropped to all-out dog-trainer correction timbre as I finished speaking firmly to my nephew, and my sister-in-law's eyes got really big -- she was generous enough not to get after me for speaking to her child in that tone, afterwards, bless her.)

 

But the dog was out. Just. Like. That.

 

Just my personal experience.

 

All that said, may all our dire forecasts prove unfounded. I hope you have a fine holiday with your family and all the various animals.

 

Liz S in PA

 

 

* * * * *

 

"her husband and two small children (7 & 4)"

[afrancis]

Okay, so I'm reminded of a recent Christmas family gathering where my older sister, who shall remain nameless, grabbed Skye around the neck with one arm and brought the other sister's boy-child, then 2 or 3, up to her face to introduce them, and to show said-child that dogs weren't scary. At which point, DH told her not to put our dog in a head-lock like that ever again or else. I think I was in the kitchen making dinner, oblivious to the family harmony.

 

Point being (and I know that was a relatively minor incident -- Skye was more scared and offended than anyone ), upon further reflection, I think that your situation could be a real disaster waiting to happen. I think if the specifics were different, and there wasn't an aggressive dog in the picture, you guys could have a lovely time. But, if Charlie's behaviour is scary-aggressive-attack, there could be incredible bad feelings (people & dogs), blood, emergency surgery, behavioural problems, etc. -- so I amend my vote -- this time for the relatively pain-free route: hotel or kennel.

 

Sorry Wendy.

Ailsa

[JohnLloydJones]

If there are small children involved, your dog will probably not be safe even in a crate.

 

Ah yes, you're so right. We don't have small ones in the house, but a friend across the street does and crating Senneca is only half the battle. On one occasion, I sat on the floor in front of her create most of the evening to prevent the youngest girl from poking things through the bars of the crate. To be honest, if I had my way, I would have crated the little girl, not Senneca.

[mbc1963]

I have a dog who would need to be carefully managed to allow another dog in his house. He lets my sister's dog in, but I leash him while she's here, just in case. He learn to behave with other dogs in here if I gave him time and carefully desensitized him, but there's been no point to doing that up to now, since we've only had a few doggie visitors.

 

Having my dog and knowing his temperament, I wouldn't invite company to come stay with me if they had a dog. I'd help them pay for a hotel (if possible), and let their dog stay in my back yard while they visited with me and my dog inside my house (or vice versa on the dogs). But I wouldn't set up the chaos you're describing.

 

Good luck. Sounds like stress city. I understand if you can't afford a hotel; it's tight times right now. Good luck.

 

Mary

[ArchersMomma]

Boy...you really DO have to couch every word here. sigh.

 

Ok..first of all...my sister and I are VERY close...kind of like...uhhhh...sisters?! She is also 13 years younger than me and also very much like my daughter. We have an exceptionally close relationship and she will not only welcome my help in training her idiot dog, she wants it. She will not interfere in my asserting my authority with her dog and will learn from it and hopefully make him a better pet. Nothing is worse, IMO, than a dog that's "left stupid" and this is what she's done with this dog. Personally, I would rather she not have the dog around my neice and nephew at all but while we are very close, she's not going to get rid of her dog just because I say she should. While I state that Charlie is aggressive and has attacked other dogs, he's also a family pet. It's a fine line and I'm not positive he will go after Archer, but would like to be prepared. I say he's "aggressive" and has attacked other dogs because I've seen him do that but it was around food.

 

As for not taking Archer, out of the question as I said, as is staying in a hotel. If I could afford either of those options, I'd be going to Cuba not Antarctica's second cousin, New Brunswick I'm going there to BE with my family. We are exceptionally close as a family...yet seldom get to see eachother. I would not waste one minute of my time with them by staying in a hotel, even if I could afford it.

 

My sister has another room that is dedicated to her dogs. There IS a baby gate but I'm not confident that it will be sufficient so we may rig up something a little more substantial. I do not intend to have both dogs running loosely around the house and Archer will only be off leash in the house if Charlie is outside. Otherwise he will be leashed to me or in his crate, which we are taking with us. For the most part we will only be sleeping at my sisters and spending the waking hours at my dads or visiting and Archer will likely be with us or crated. Since Archer is crated all day at home while we are at work, I have no issues with having him crated when we have to have some free time.

 

As for the "two second window" of possibliity....there is just no way to absolutely make certain one hundred percent that this is not a possibility. I can't be there 100% of the time and as they say, sh*t happens. I have NO desire to have my dog traumatized and will of course do everything humanly possible to ensure that he does not. I also don't want to have a car accident on the way down there either! Unfortunately, there's no absolutes in life so I'm trying to prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

 

Thanks to those who gave realistic and helpful suggestions....while I understand everyone's concern, the alternatives are just not possible.

[Laurae]

Boy...you really DO have to couch every word here. sigh.

 

People are not mind readers, and they respond to what they read. If you post your question to thousands of readers, you're bound to get a variety of responses. If some of them do not fit your situation exactly, it's because you haven't been specific enough. The people responding were only trying to help (which you asked for). Sheesh.

[kaos]

I find it really interesting that you keep asking for help and opinions and then jumping down the posters throats for not telling you what you wanted to hear. It is simply unrealistic to continue to expect that every one will be able to read your mind and know all of the little details you omit from your posts. There are several fabulous kennels in our area and they are very reasonable, the one we go to even gives free grooming for a weeklong stay. If you would like some recommendations I would be happy to share some of my experiences with local kennels. Given the circumstances you have described I would not chance it. I have a done that exact scenario and can tell you that the bloodshed and resulting tension was a fabulous downer for the holidays for every one. Thank goodness no children were hurt because of my mistake. If I couldn't guarantee the safety of my family members (dogs included) I would would have to find some other plan.

 

Sara

 

Ps. a nice present for the sister may be a prepaid neutering certificate from her vet. That way it will get done, the bill would go to you and charlie may have some of his behaviours nipped.

[ArchersMomma]

thanks Laurae....I guess I run into this problem a lot. I am a typist and do so for a living so sometimes type as fast as I am thinking something. I also tend to be uhhh...long winded...bad habit that I'm trying to break. I often wonder if I'm giving enough details in my efforts to NOT be long winded and then end up giving the wrong information and coming across in the wrong way. I typically read and write quite well but wrongfully assume that everyone else does and that they catch the nuances in what I'm saying. I also sometimes just type without "editing" myself (cause frankly I find it exhausting some days! lol!) and should have been more careful in my original post (after re-reading it).

 

Anyway...thanks for pointing that out. I will try to be more clear in future posts.

[MrSnappy]

Boy...you really DO have to couch every word here. sigh.

 

Actually no you don't. But if you ask for advice, you receive it. Dismissing people for being concerned and giving advice is really uncharitable and unfriendly of you.

 

If you feel that going into your sister's home, and trying to train her "aggressive" (your words) dog out of his bad habits during your vacation is an excellent idea, and you're not actually worried about the "aggressive" dog attacking Archer, even though you said you were, then why did you ask for advice on those topics in the first place? You need to stop asking for advice if you don't actually want it. It just wastes the good peoples' time when they make a genuine effort to give you some.

 

RDM

[Laurae]

I typically read and write quite well but wrongfully assume that everyone else does

 

Are you trying to insult the people who keep trying to help you?

[ArchersMomma]

NO! that's not what I meant at all but that sure does explain what I was pathetically attempting (on three hours of sleep when I should be in bed and not posting here) to say and doing so horrifyingly badly.

 

What I was trying to say (and get edited to read like a sane person typing before someone replied but I wasn't quick enough) is...

 

I NORMALLY read and write quite well and assume wrongly that everyone else does...what I mean is that because I read and write a certain way, I assume that everyone "gets" what I'm saying when often they do not because I'm not expressing it properly and taking the time to do so...as in exactly what has just occurred. There was no sarcasm intended in that at all and I was not trying to offend anyone. If anything I'm annoyed with myself for seeming to be clear in my writing when I clearly have NOT been.

 

So on that note, I will take my foot inserted mouth and go to bed where I should have been hours ago. I did not wish to offend anyone.

[Alaska]

ArchersMomma,

 

Practically every single part of this plan strikes me as a hugely bad idea, even in light of your clarifications. Those of us who are replying to you have, I think, all been there, and after the fact wish we had not done what you are proposing to do. I, at least, am speaking from personal experience. I mean you no disrespect. I am just offering that I think this plan has the very real potential to result in multiple disasters, and I wouldn't wish that on your or Archer or your sister or her dogs or her kids or anyone else, least of all at the holidays.

 

You want to go and have a fun, happy holiday with your sister, who you get along great with. You want to take Archer. You can't or won't stay in a hotel. All this is fine. So why not just accept the parameters of the situation? Keep Archer in a crate in your bedroom behind a closed door - you already said he's fine with being crated. Hang out with your sister and her dogs and enjoy the family time. IF she wants your suggestions on dog training fine, but otherwise just keep them to yourself. Her house, her dogs, her life - let her decide whether your advice is wanted or needed. Otherwise just enjoy her company, same as you always have - that's what holidays are for.

 

Set aside some Archer time too. During Archer's part of the day, close the other dogs in a room behind a closed and latched door, not just a baby gate. Put the kids behind the baby gate. Bring Archer out for a bit of family time with you and the other adults, or take him out of the house for a walk or whatever.

 

This can work. If all goes well, maybe on the next visit you can take another step, like introducing Archer to Timber, but keep it simple for Archer's first visit. No need to solve all the problems at once.

 

Did I address your original question?

MY concern right at the moment is how to protect Archer while we are there.

I hope so. Eliminate all chances for interaction between Archer and the other dogs; that's my advice and I'm sticking to it. If this was a dog training trip, maybe the advice would be different, but if the purpose of the trip is to be with family, then concentrate on that. Protect Archer by keeping him 100% out of harms way. It's easy to do and it eliminates as much of the risk and stress as possible while still staying within the parameters you set for the trip. Everyone wins with this plan. Why not give it a try?