Advice Needed - sheep related

[TAC2]

I've posted elsewhere that our sheep are "stupid" and hard for our newly adopted BC to work.

 

Lena did well working with me on sheep she knew and was even able to grip as needed; however, our sheep are significantly bigger, heavy and one in particular, stubborn. Lena has 2+ years of training on her, is excited about sheep and I think, very capable of handling them, but I don't know how to bring out her confidence with my sheep - in fact, I'm afraid of compromising it. The young ram lamb is falling into line, but the big Corriedale ewe just ignores Lena, so that she starts to worry back and forth instead of walking up or gripping, forcing this ewe to move. I think she is intimidated by this ewe and I'm not sure how to help her. The ewe has never been worked by herding dogs before.

 

Basically, I need to find someone nearby with really tough dogs to put this ewe in line (anyone here in near Richmond VA willing to practice on some stubborn sheep?), find a trio of dog broke sheep or advice on what I can do to build her confidence with this ewe. Right now I have to drive the ewe and keep her moving, which puts me between Lena and the sheep --- not good. Lena is good at heading the sheep if they try to break away or split - but today the ewe decided to barrel through and Lena let her. Tomorrow I'll put this one away and work with only the ram lamb to build her confidence up, but that isn't going to help over the long term. (Yes, this and the other ewe will either find new homes after lambing or be culled.)

 

Thanks again!

 

~ Tru

[Caroline Reichard]

I was confused by your post and may have misunderstood you. Are you only working two sheep with your dog, the young ram and the Corriedale ewe? And am I right in thinking that they are very tame with humans, maybe pet sheep? If this is true, then you are correct: you need new sheep. They should not be tame, and they should be more afraid of the dog than the dog is of them. Nothing good is going to happen with things are they are. If the ewe stomps your dog, you will be in a pickle.

[workindogs]

Tru

If you are trying to work only 2 sheep, a ewe and a ram, with a green dog then you have likely set your dog up to fail.....this is a near impossible arrangement....made even worse if these are pet sheep (unafraid). Even normally docile sheep will sour in a circumstance like this. You need better sheep than this. I wouldn't put your dog on them as it will ruin her confidence....the situation has already set her back.

[Bill Fosher]

The question you need to ask yourself is whether you're keeping sheep to train your dog, or keeping a dog to help with a flock of sheep. With just three sheep, one of which is confined to a hard pen, you don't need a dog to work the flock, and you can't possibly train your dog under those circumstances, so you're neither fish nor fowl.

 

If your intention is to grow your flock, then my recommendation would be to try to hook up with a trainer who can help you get this dog going so that she's ready when you need her on your own flock. If your intention is to have a few pet sheep, my recommendation would be either to find a new home for her, or plan on taking her to a trainer regularly where you can work her as a hobby.

 

The other thing you should bear in mind is that if your ewes are recently bred, working a green dog on them could very well precipitate embryonic mortality if things get too wild and woolly. (I'm guessing they're recently bred because the ram is still running with them.) Working a single sheep as you propose in your original post is a bad idea made worse by the fact that he's a ram.

[TAC2]

The question you need to ask yourself is whether you're keeping sheep to train your dog, or keeping a dog to help with a flock of sheep. With just three sheep, one of which is confined to a hard pen, you don't need a dog to work the flock, and you can't possibly train your dog under those circumstances, so you're neither fish nor fowl.

 

If your intention is to grow your flock, then my recommendation would be to try to hook up with a trainer who can help you get this dog going so that she's ready when you need her on your own flock. If your intention is to have a few pet sheep, my recommendation would be either to find a new home for her, or plan on taking her to a trainer regularly where you can work her as a hobby.

 

The other thing you should bear in mind is that if your ewes are recently bred, working a green dog on them could very well precipitate embryonic mortality if things get too wild and woolly. (I'm guessing they're recently bred because the ram is still running with them.) Working a single sheep as you propose in your original post is a bad idea made worse by the fact that he's a ram.

 

Hi Bill:

 

1 - got a dog to work the sheep. Herding has become addicting fun on the one hand and frustrating trying to get inside the sheep heads on the other

2 - flock will be growing; lambs expected in spring and 6 more reserved from breeders so we'll have new sheep to work with, just won't be for several months yet. Following weaning the two Corriedales will be culled from the flock

3 - definitely need to find a trainer!

4 - these sheep aren't pets

5 - ram is under a year old (9 months) and still very docile (though I NEVER let my guard down around an intact male)

6 - confined sheep is out of sight while working, so it's really just working the two

7 - I'm going to keep muddling through very slowly, keep sessions simple and positive, build my relationship with this dog and hopefully find a trainer soon.

 

~ Tru

[Denise Wall]

Here's the thing -- sheep are not sheep unless they are in a group of at least three.

 

Sheep are flock animals. They do not act normally unless there are at least three of them together. Working one or two sheep is something trainers usually do only with experienced dogs because the sheep will be more challenging to handle when there are less than three. IOW, you need to be working them in a group of at least three, no matter where the others are.

 

Pet sheep, show sheep or bottlefed lambs are the exception to this rule as they are not raised like a normal sheep and therefore do not have the normal sheep flocking instinct.

[1sheepdoggal]

All good and so true advise. I think if it was me, Id put the sheep work on the back burner till I could find an instructor or some one willing to allow me to work their sheep. Do other things with the dog like OB work, bonding, settling in, and leave the sheep work till you have a more ideal situation for her. Other wise, muddling through, is going to add up to souring the dog. She is to inexperienced to muddle through and its not fair to her to keep trying to go on like this. She will remember all that she knows in several months when you get back to it, and wont be developing bad habits or loss of confidence (which is very debilitating to a green dog) in the process.

[juliepoudrier]

I agree with Darci on this one. You have more sheep coming in the spring. You don't really need a dog to handle two sheep (a bucket of grain will do nicely, even for sheep that are not pets). Instead of setting your dog up for failure, which is pretty much what you're doing now, why not just put the training on hold (or only do it at an instructor's place where there are appropriate sheep until *both you and Lena* have a better idea of what to do and how) and just spend time bonding with your dog. It won't hurt either one of you to wait a while. If you persist in trying to work your dog in a situation that a number of *experienced* people on both this thread and the other one have explained to you is far from ideal and is likely to cause problems for your dog, then you will have only yourself to blame when you manage to ruin her. As I said in the other thread, a novice dog, non-dog-broke sheep, and a handler who is totally green is generally a disaster waiting to happen. You say you've had livestock for many years--you must then realize that patience is a good thing in dealing with them. Have some patience now with Lena and wait until you have a more appropriate situation for her. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but there it is.

 

I will send you via PM the names of some trainers who should be within reasonable driving distance. If you want to have a useful dog who can help you for some time to come, get some training for both you and her and quit trying to mess around with your situation at home.

 

J.

[TAC2]

All good and so true advise. I think if it was me, Id put the sheep work on the back burner till I could find an instructor or some one willing to allow me to work their sheep. Do other things with the dog like OB work, bonding, settling in, and leave the sheep work till you have a more ideal situation for her. Other wise, muddling through, is going to add up to souring the dog. She is to inexperienced to muddle through and its not fair to her to keep trying to go on like this. She will remember all that she knows in several months when you get back to it, and wont be developing bad habits or loss of confidence (which is very debilitating to a green dog) in the process.

 

I'll keep that in mind. She is so keen to work the sheep and they are right here with us it's difficult to not work them. I'm going to look for a couple of dog broke sheep to both increase numbers and give our sheep some "direction."

 

I'd like to outline what we did yesterday and perhaps someone can tell me where I went wrong and give some suggestions --- difficult as that is from just words on the internet.

 

We started off with a nice gather and wear. The sheep thought I had feed, so they came running and Lena was straight and steady behind them. We worked a sort of circle with wearing and I could tell the ram was paying attention to the dog. On the other hand, when the ewe figured I didn't have any food, she decided she had enough and turned to go to stall while the ram stayed with me. She wasn't aggressive about it and didn't "stomp" the dog, but it was like a dog wasn't there. Lena focused on me and the ram so we worked a bit more; then I sent her to "look back," which she did really nicely. Unfortunately, this is where we ran into problems. The ewe didn't want to leave the corner by the stall and Lena held her there instead of bringing her to me. At this point I lost the ram because he wanted to be with the ewe and the dog was gone. I walked over, tried to get Lena to push them off the fence, but she seemed worried about it. Using the clock analogy, sheep with fence behind were at 12, Lena at 10 and me at 2 moving slightly away from the sheep, roughly at a 45 degree angle. I used 'come by' as the direction, but she just swung side to side at 10, unsure of what to do with the sheep that wouldn't budge. Perhaps I'm just not putting the directions together in way that makes sense to her or I'm in the wrong place. In the end, I shooed the sheep off the fence, had Lena hold them to the other side of the run-in, walked toward the gate, "lie down" she continued to hold them, then "that'll do, well done" and out we go (always ending on a positive note.) Lena seemed happy with her work as we finished - tail wagging.

 

I did a lot of thinking last night about this, trying to get inside the sheep and dog's heads. The only thing I could come up with is that Lena, being new here, is unsure of me, unsure of the sheep and trying her best. The sheep are also fed in the stalls (that's where I've usually bribed and caught) so they head there when they see hubby or me. The corner the ewe kept heading to is the corner formed by the stall where we feed and the fence for the other ewe (who was out of sight) When they were in that spot, they were completely motionless unless I tried to shoo or catch them. Perhaps this may have been what Lena thought I wanted, bring those sheep to the "pen" and hold them there.

 

I do have a round pen set up for bucks/rams that I could try working in to get them out of familiar turf, but it isn't an easy area to work in due to trees and stumps. We are preparing an arena area, but it won't be finished for awhile yet. Maybe I'll just continue to have her hold them at feeding time - which is what everyone seems to want to do anyway - until I have more cooperative sheep at hand and/or a trainer to work with.

[TAC2]

I will send you via PM the names of some trainers who should be within reasonable driving distance. If you want to have a useful dog who can help you for some time to come, get some training for both you and her and quit trying to mess around with your situation at home.

 

J.

 

Thanks Julie, I would appreciate that.

 

I seem to have been posting at the same time as you.

 

Is it discouraging to the dog to be told "no" with the sheep here at hand? She always comes with me to the gate, even with the LGDs barking at her. She really WANTS to work the sheep, and I know its somehow my fault that we're having problems. If you all don't think not working the sheep will be a problem for her frustration wise, I can handle that, but she looks so disappointed when I tell her "no" not now.

[juliepoudrier]

Tru,

At the moment I have 11 border collies here, nine of my own, and two who are staying with me, one for training and the other while his owner recovers from surgery. Of those 11, 7 are active working dogs (the rest are retirees). Although I have 50+ sheep, I certainly don't have enough daily work for 7 dogs, so some don't get daily work. One youngster has an injured toe and hasn't worked sheep (till yesterday, briefly) for two weeks. None of them are suffering because they don't always get to work.

 

When Pip and Phoebe were younger--around a year old I guess. I tried to start them on my rams and wethers (a small flock of seven sheep). The sheep were completely inappropriate for those two youngsters, and every time I tried to work them, even with my experienced dog holding the perimeter and containing the sheep it was pretty much a disaster. The pups weren't learning anything useful and were likely going to learn things I didn't want them to. I had started Lark, who was just six months older, on those same sheep without a problem, but the pups were different enough from Lark that it just wasn't working out. For the sake of the dogs (and the sheep), I put them up until I could get dog-broke sheep that were appropriate for them. It didn't hurt them in the least to have worked a few times and then be put up. They still were around the sheep since at the time my sheep basically lived in my yard or in two other nearby locations we visited frequently. It didn't hurt their psyches at all to be around them and not work them. (And she's not likely to forget what to do in the meantime either.)

 

In fact, while I certainly want my dogs to *want* to work, I also want them to be able to hang out with me with sheep in sight and not lose their minds for wanting to work them. My dogs can pretty much see my flock from anywhere in the yard, but they don't run the fence working the sheep, or if I walk out in the pasture to take a short cut, although they may start out after the sheep, they will recall back so we can continue on with what we wanted to do, etc. Working dogs need to learn patience too....

 

J.

[1sheepdoggal]

My sheep, as are Julies, are right out our back doors. I tell my dogs "NO!" every day. They ask, I say no. It hasnt seemed to have hurt them in any way. As soon as I tell them no sheep work today, they go find some thng else to do. You can help her learn how to do that, by not giving in to the sad looks and apparent desire. It will always be there. But really, you only want to see it when you ask for it. She should learn to look for other things to do or just be happy to wait for you when you are in with the sheep. I even take my dogs on the field with me to do things in the pasture, that dont require that they work, just stay with me while I do my thing. That may be a good place to start with her. Keep her on a line at first if you think she may take off after the sheep. Just because they are there, doesnt mean she gets to work them. She needs to understand that. You call the shots, not her.

[Sue R]

Our cattle are here on the farm, sometimes just past the fence in the backyard, sometimes in other fields. Whether there is any dog work or not, the stock have to be checked. The dogs go with us for the exercise and have to learn that there are times they work and times they don't.

 

While they love working, they don't sit around moping when there is no job to do - they are just always ready to work when the occasion calls for it.

 

Don't work with your dog when the circumstances are not good for her - you will just do more harm than good. She's just (as you said previously) a novice-level dog. Waiting won't hurt but working "wrong" will. Be patient.

 

Julie will give you good references for training. Going to train will enable you to learn how to handle Lena, help her progress, and allow the two of you to form a working partnership. Then, when you have suitable sheep, you both will be better prepared to progress.

 

Best wishes!

[Amelia]

Hello all. So Tru, it seems that you're pretty determined to work you sheep despite lots of correct arguments and advice to the contrary. It's likely that you're more keen to work them than your dog. So, while I agree with all the assessments and direction offered to you so far, here's a suggestion:

 

Help your dog. If she can't, for whatever reason, move the sheep, don't ask her to try it alone as you're putting her in a position to fail, which is always a bad precedent. Get beside your dog (not between her and the sheep) and both of you walk up and get them to move, and encourage her with your voice ("shush, shush, come on, come on") while doing so. Move the sheep together and she will gain confidence from your helpful presence. Had a nasty old ewe for a while and a young dog that I was training. I did this with him until he had the confidence to deal with her on his own. It took months, btw, during which time I was beside him helping the whole time. I never put him in a position to fail and made sure that he and I always won the argument... every time. these nasty ewe sessions were interspersed with lots of easy and fun work too.

 

It amazes me when I see people stand back and ask their dog to complete a task for which the dog is completely unprepared. They seem to think that because the dog is "supposed" to be able to do it, in their view of sheepdogs, that it simply has to be. It doesn't and it's wrong of the hand to ask. It's kind of like running a vacume cleaner back and forth over a piece of whatever when it isn't immediately sucked up. It's the vacume cleaner's job, afterall, so instead of just reaching down to grab it, i'll keep going back and forth wasting time and getting frustrated. why not clean the filter or change the bag and give it a go next time.

 

So, Tru, without any intention of being harsh, you are the problem, not your dog. But, I've offered my suggestion above as a means of mitigating the damage to your dog and I wish you all the best.

[TAC2]

Hello all. So Tru, it seems that you're pretty determined to work you sheep despite lots of correct arguments and advice to the contrary. It's likely that you're more keen to work them than your dog. So, while I agree with all the assessments and direction offered to you so far, here's a suggestion:

 

It amazes me when I see people stand back and ask their dog to complete a task for which the dog is completely unprepared. They seem to think that because the dog is "supposed" to be able to do it, in their view of sheepdogs, that it simply has to be. It doesn't and it's wrong of the hand to ask.

 

So, Tru, without any intention of being harsh, you are the problem, not your dog. But, I've offered my suggestion above as a means of mitigating the damage to your dog and I wish you all the best.

 

Hi Amelia:

 

No, you are not being harsh, and I know it is something I'm not doing right - hence my request for information on a trainer. I don't feel that I abandon her and have been within 15-20 feet of both Lena and the sheep with any work I ask. However, I really don't have anyone here to observe and tell me what I'm doing wrong.

 

I don't believe I've stated anywhere here that I'm absolutely determined to work this dog, it's just that she shows such desire to work. If holding off is the recommended thing to do, then that's what I'll do. I am, however, determined to find some dog broke sheep for both of us to work with, that way at least two of the three participants will know what they are supposed to do. And yes, I'll need some training too. Hopefully this will have both of us ready for down the road when I have more sheep and will really need her help.

 

I also seem to have done her a discredit, or it's just the words misunderstood, which isn't fair. This dog is absolutely wonderful. She is almost too perfect sometimes and I love when she gets silly with the others. She is housebroken, crate trained and has a solid "off" switch. She follows me to the gate and looks soulful when I say "no" but she isn't running fence lines and moves away when asked. Her basic obedience is good too (down, stay, sit, leave it, etc.), takes cookies like a lady, will shake hands and recall is sound. She is developing a good relationship with our other two house dogs and two of the three LGD have pretty much accepted she is here to stay (the third is the oldest, a male that is going to take a bit longer to adjust.) We do have some kitty issues, but we're working on it. In the past week since she arrived, she has also learned to retrieve, "go inside" which means go to the yard gate and wait for me to open and go into crate to wait for dinner - all on verbal command. I'm planning to teach her a couple of silly tricks as soon as I figure out what would be fun.

 

~ Tru

[juliepoudrier]

Hi Amelia:

 

No, you are not being harsh, and I know it is something I'm not doing right - hence my request for information on a trainer.

Tru,

I think the point that has been made over and over here is that what you are not doing right is trying to work her on *two* non-dog-broke sheep. Wait till you get your dog broke sheep (and work them exclusively without adding the non-broke sheep in at first) and then start learning how to work sheep with your dog.

 

J.

P.S. Did you get my PM?

[1sheepdoggal]

Tru, where are you located? Its not on your profile. Maybe if folks knew where abouts you were at, they could give you some places to look for some dog broke sheep.

[TAC2]

Tru, where are you located? Its not on your profile. Maybe if folks knew where abouts you were at, they could give you some places to look for some dog broke sheep.

 

Virginia, 1 hour west of Richmond.

 

Julie:

 

Yes, thank you.

 

I think we're all beating a dead horse at this point. I got the part about dog broke sheep...that's why I'm going to try and find some. Now I just need someone to work with for my confidence.

[Bill Fosher]

What hasn't been clear to me is whether you understand the warning that it seems pretty much unanimous here: you are currently doing her positive harm. She is better put up than working in the situation you have described. It has seemed to me that what you are looking for are ways to fix your current situation. The only ways to fix this situation is to take her out of it and get her to someone who can help you learn how to work dogs and sheep, or change it entirely by getting sensible sheep. In my opinion, you'll have much better results with the first course of action than the second.

[stockdogranch]

I'll agree with what everyone else has said. You mention getting some more sheep to add to your group; I really don't think that will make a lot of difference (ok, it won't make *any* difference). You have a ewe who does not respect your dog. Adding more sheep to the group, no matter how dog broke, will not change HER. So then you'll have a group of sheep who will (maybe) move for the dog, but that one blasted ewe still will not. Best thing you can do is to take the dog to a trainer and learn to work her. Work with her so that you and she become a team. Work all different kinds of stock, starting with dog broke, as that's what she had worked before, right? Then gradually make your way up to more difficult sheep. This all takes a bit of time to do. Meantime, you have a few sheep, and after lambing will have a few more in the spring. Maybe by then you and your dog will be able to get some jobs done. As everyone has said, you will do far more damage to this dog by insisting on trying to work her in this impossible situation than by putting her up for a while, so that you two can both learn a bit more,

 

A

 

ETA: You're getting a really hard lesson in Stockdogs 101: you can't just take any old dog who has had a bit of training out to do just any old job. For the job you are trying to accomplish, you would need a really tough Open level trained dog, which is not what you have. Of course, you didn't know all this when you got started, and now you're learning the hard way.

[TAC2]

Okay, I'm starting to feel like I'm in the twilight zone. I've read each bit of advice given. As a result, I've stated each of the following, sometimes more than once, already:

 

1. I bow to greater experience and won't be working this dog with these sheep any further

2. The stubborn ewe and the escape artist will be culled following weaning, so by June 2009 they will be a non-issue

3. I'm working on finding some dog broke sheep to work with her and will have a larger flock of young sheep (who presumably will follow the more mature dog-broke sheep) in the spring. It will take time to find the right sheep for our farm situation.

4. I have been provided with some recommendations and will contact a trainer to work on my partnership with Lena and my own lack of herding experience in the meantime.

 

While I appreciate everyone's thoughts and the time taken to respond, if there is nothing NEW to add, additional comments with the same refrain are unnecessary, and frankly annoying.

 

A - since you do have a bit that's new, I'll respond. Yes, she has worked with dog broke sheep in the past. Those are the sheep we, she and I, worked when I met with her owner. She has also worked cattle and other large sheep that were not dog broke, but that was with her experienced and familiar owner, not me. SHE does have what it takes, but I do understand that we need more time for her to adjust to a new home, a different group of sheep and assistance from a trainer (more so for me) so we can build a working partnership together.

[Bill Fosher]

1. I bow to greater experience and won't be working this dog with these sheep any further

 

Unless I've missed something, this is new. I wasn't sure that this was getting through to you.

 

While I appreciate everyone's thoughts and the time taken to respond, if there is nothing NEW to add, additional comments with the same refrain are unnecessary, and frankly annoying.

 

Ho, boy. If you're annoyed by this, you're in for a rough ride. Just in my own defense, when I respond to these threads, I am not only writing to you, but to others who read this and find themselves in a similar kettle of fish. My concern is that if you're missing an important point, someone else might be too.

[Sue R]

Unless I've missed something, this is new. I wasn't sure that this was getting through to you.

Ho, boy. If you're annoyed by this, you're in for a rough ride. Just in my own defense, when I respond to these threads, I am not only writing to you, but to others who read this and find themselves in a similar kettle of fish. My concern is that if you're missing an important point, someone else might be too.

Absolutely. If you are going to be annoyed by people who are trying to help, don't be surprised if people don't bother to take the time and effort to be helpful. Sometimes, all it takes is someone saying something from a different perspective or in a different manner to help another grasp and understand a concept. This is a topic on a forum board, not someone's private email, and anyone who reads a topic can benefit from it or contribute.

 

I'm one of those "other people" who have learned from all the replies on this topic, and I thank those who have contributed.

[juliepoudrier]

I think most of us operate under the same assumption that Bill does. The idea is to educate as many as possible in addition to the OP.

 

Tru,

I'm sorry you felt "dumped on," but for a while there it didn't seem as if you *were* getting the message, which is why people kept repeating it. In all honesty, they all meant well and weren't out to try to annoy you. The advice most people on this forum give others is to take what you can use and ignore the rest. People who are easily offended/annoyed will have a hard time here. I'm sure that many times people don't read the other posts and just post their own opinion (which was already said by someone else), so you will find lots of repetition in other threads too. But, if you can get past personal feelings, you can generally learn a lot.

 

J.

[Wendy V]

I always appreciate when people respond to training threads. There is always something new to learn.