Do People Really?

[Root Beer]

The "emails" are what I call your longer posts... don't worry, there aren't 2 of you that I know of....

 

I'm glad to hear that. I had a run-in with an "imposter" on the internet once and it made me a bit paranoid about such things!

 

other than that, I think I'm on topic. But then again, you and I rarely agree so what's new?

 

Hey - we agreed on Helix. And we agree that we rarely agree - so that's twice in one day!

 

I would enjoy a trial immensely where the dogs were more normal working/pet Border Collies as you describe. The fact that you don't see the problems many of us are indicate something nice going on in your region. What types of events do you do? USDAA? CPE? ASCA?

 

Mostly CPE, but a bit of NADAC, too. And I train with AKC people.

 

And WCFO Freestyle and APDT Rally.

[Barb Scott]

Kristine writes:

I have made an observation based on what I see in in my area. And it is factual. It is quite possible, you know, that the types of dogs seen at trials from region to region in this large country of ours can vary a great deal. You might see almost all merles and unusually colored Border Collies at trials in your area and I might see nearly zero around here. In fact, it sounds very much like that may be the case. There is no implication in my statement of that fact that the phenomenon does not exist in other areas of the country.

I write:

I don't know where in PA you're from, but I do know of a rather well thought of BC sport breeder (agility) in PA who has many merles in her lines. Maybe she sells all of them to competitors from out of state.

Barb S

[Root Beer]

I don't know where in PA you're from, but I do know of a rather well thought of BC sport breeder (agility) in PA who has many merles in her lines. Maybe she sells all of them to competitors from out of state.

Barb S

 

Where is this breeder?

[ShoresDog]

As Julie says, it's fun owning something "special," and with that in mind, I think Melanie's given us the answer to the candy-colored question:

Sports do not require levels of innate ability that are difficult to find in Border Collies. Therefore, you may as well select a dog for color as any other reason, because for sports purposes, most Border Collies are functionally equivalent... Since pretty much any Border Collie can sleepwalk its way through an agility course and do well, dog sports handlers are free to choose a dog based on color.

Perhaps we could say that most Border Collies have enough innate ability to be able to perform well in sports, and therefore what makes a sports champion is a champion handler. Unusual colors would be fine I suppose, if we weren't concerned about the quality of future generations of Border Collies. So it would be nice if choosing based on color came to be considered dumb in ALL venues!

[jdarling]

Have a litter of candy colored pups -- reds, blues, merles, etc. -- and see what it attracts. It's quite eye-opening.

[Barb Scott]

Where is this breeder?

Near Philadelphia, I think.

barb

[Rave]

Well if you look at the recently held USDAA Nationals Steeplechase class photos, you can see for yourself it's not all "candy-colored" (cute term)... Out of 16 dogs in the BC-dominated 22" and 26" championship classes, there are 2 Blue merles, 1 red merle and 1 red (working bred Kuykendall dog)... assuming the 2nd place 22" finisher is a blue merle - hard to tell!

 

http://www.usdaa.com/article.cfm?newsID=1051

[RuthBelle]

OK, I get the "breeding for color" and dollar bills, versus breeding for working ability. Anybody have a viable solution for this besides discussing the heck out of it? Right now anyone with a male and female BC, horses or any pair of animals for that matter (including people) can breed and produce offspring, whether it's a good match genetically or not. Unless there's legislation, or certain knowledge/testing requirements to be met before being allowed to be a "breeder", it's gonna continue. Something's needed to take "backyard" breeders and money grubbers out of the equation. Legislation, fees, fines, WHAT????

[SoloRiver]

Out of 16 dogs in the BC-dominated 22" and 26" championship classes, there are 2 Blue merles, 1 red merle and 1 red

 

So, that's 25% odd colored dogs -- which is a much higher percentage than you'd see at any sheepdog trial, anywhere (assuming all 16 dogs are Border Collies, and if they are not, the % is even higher). OK, with a sample size of 16 that's not saying much, but it is also representative of what I have seen at agility trials (SE PA, mid-Atlantic area, and northern California). If anything, I would guess that the % of odd colored dogs at agility trials was even higher than that, but I tend to be hyper-attuned to red dogs (because I like them) so I might be inflating the actual numbers in my head. Still, the difference between agility and sheepdog trials is very striking.

[SoloRiver]

Something's needed to take "backyard" breeders and money grubbers out of the equation. Legislation, fees, fines, WHAT????

 

It's about supply and demand. People will keep breeding for the wrong reasons as long as there is a market.

 

If people stop choosing dogs for stupid reasons, misbreeders will stop producing dogs for stupid reasons. Simple explanation, but no easy answers.

[RuthBelle]

It's about supply and demand. People will keep breeding for the wrong reasons as long as there is a market.

 

If people stop choosing dogs for stupid reasons, misbreeders will stop producing dogs for stupid reasons. Simple explanation, but no easy answers.

 

Well, I love my merle, she's spayed, I won't be breeding her. I would imagine that even if there was some kind of requirement to be licensed, pass knowledge tests, pay fees or whatever before ANYBODY bred animals, there would have to be enforcement of same. And considering that most local, and state agencies can't even enforce people to license their dogs as required, I guess that wouldn't work either. Meanwhile, genetically inferior breedings continue, and animal shelters fill up, no easy answers.

[Bo Peep]

Can I take this a little "off topic" for a bit? If not- feel free to ignore.

 

What about herding dogs?

 

I know that if I find a great litter (although Usher was picked for me) I most certainly take the cutest. I am fond of the traditional markings, but got myself my 2nd tri. I had no clue until the puppy pic was sent. I think if the good breeders of herding dogs, they have the time to evaluate the pups- if they are going to keep one- do NOT care about markings. It's all in how the dog preforms or reacts to you. That's the way it should be.

 

For example, you can have a beautiful wife that beats the kids and can't cook and as is dumb as a brick- trophy wife- but who would you rather be with? Someone that makes you happy, laugh, is kind to you? JMO.

[stockdogranch]

What about herding dogs?

 

Assuming that the dogs have been chosen for breeding based on sound reasoning, i.e., good working ability and two lines/working styles that will complement each other, then the rest is totally based on personal preference. At 8 weeks (before they all go away) I've had all my pups on sheep, just to see for grins and giggles, but there's no way to tell at that point one from the other, really. They all exhibit some interest, in a cute little puppy kind of way, but that's it. So, assuming their *potential* working ability is about as equal as you can get, then it's just what I like, looks-wise. As for personality, at that stage, they all seem really equal to me, too, because I've spent a lot of time doing lots of things with all the pups--exposure to as many things as I can, etc. I happen to like smooth coats, fairly traditional markings, a fair amount of white on the face, but no split faces or white heads, no blue eyes, and tri is good or plain B/W is good (sorry, Melanie, I am NOT a red dog fan). I keep a female. So that's how I pick 'em. Good as any other way. Roll the dice. So I AM choosing the one I keep based on looks. BUT, the litter was produced based on working ability first and foremost, and from that pool I make a choice,

 

A

[juliepoudrier]

So I AM choosing the one I keep based on looks. BUT, the litter was produced based on working ability first and foremost, and from that pool I make a choice,

Ditto here. I pick what I like the looks of after the litter has been produced. But before the pups are born, it's the cross that's the determining factor in whether I'll even be interested in a puppy (and not how the parents look, but how they work. In other words, the cross is the most important thing. After that, I go for what I like best. For me, that's a smooth coated, prick eared bitch. I love tris, and I don't mind white-factored dogs or split faces. But I am also not locked in to my preferences. That's why I kept a rough-coated, odd eared pup out of my Twist litter--because in that case, I wanted a bitch more than I wanted a smooth coat (and you couldn't really tell on the ears at the time).

 

I like reds and red tris too, but although the litter of which Twist was a member had two red pups, that's not what I chose. In the future if I were to choose a pup out of a great litter (working cross) and there were reds in the litter, I might choose one. For me, aside from a preference for bitches (although living with Pip has tempered that somewhat), the rest is left up to which pup "speaks" to me.

 

If anything, I think you'd find a reverse color preference (reverse discrimination?) in the working world. I personally wouldn't choose a merle puppy from a working litter, and lots of folks wouldn't choose red dogs, although because red is carried in some nice lines, it does seem to be appearing with more frequency (Kuykendall's lines would be one--two of the three red dogs I have are from those lines; then again, four of the others also go back to those lines and are not red...). Mostly white dogs (like Pip) are pretty much pariahs too....

 

 

J.

[Root Beer]

. . . and therefore what makes a sports champion is a champion handler.

 

True. A champion handler could probably make a better Agility dog of a random Lab mix than the average novice could make of many Border Collies. Really, Border Collies are not no-brainers to train and run in Agility, nor to compete successfully in Rally, nor to perform well in Freestyle. I can't speak for other sports, of course. Smart and biddable as they are, even a Border Collie requires a considerable amount of training and practice to do well in those sports. Add trial stress into that mix, and I hear of a great many Border Collies washing out as sport dogs.

 

I still can't see a very experienced handler who is serious about any dog sport seeking out a new dog with color as a top priority. To be clear - I'm not saying it doesn't happen - it just doesn't make logical sense to me.

[Root Beer]

Near Philadelphia, I think.

barb

 

Well, that explains it. People in the Philly area would not be very likely to travel out to our area to trial - they have more opportunities to trial closer to home than we have out here.

 

I don't even go out that way to trial very much, although I do plan to make one trial out that way in the spring. I'll have to pay close attention to the Border Collies when I go and see if there are more merles and such than I normally see. It will definitely be a different crowd.

 

Even though we are in Pa, the Philly area and south central Pa are pretty distinct regions, as is western Pa.

[Shetlander]

Smart and biddable as they are, even a Border Collie requires a considerable amount of training and practice to do well in those sports. Add trial stress into that mix, and I hear of a great many Border Collies washing out as sport dogs.

 

Totally agree. They're dogs, not robots. Not all are created equal as far as strengths and weaknesses for sports. Add in trainer and handler strengths/weaknesses, and success rates vary quite a bit. Obviously Border Collies excel in agility or you wouldn't see so many of them. But they present their own challenges to train and handle.

 

I still can't see a very experienced handler who is serious about any dog sport seeking out a new dog with color as a top priority. To be clear - I'm not saying it doesn't happen - it just doesn't make logical sense to me.

 

People aren't always logical. I know one woman who chooses her dogs, right down to the breed entirely on looks. I asked her this flat out and she said, yes, this was the case. This breed of dog has worked out well for her once that I know of and that was very, very well. The following dogs have been nothing but problems for her. My personal opinion (that other share) is that the breed simply does not suit her. She is one of the most competitive people I know, yet she will not consider changing to a different breed.

[Rave]

So, that's 25% odd colored dogs -- which is a much higher percentage than you'd see at any sheepdog trial, anywhere (assuming all 16 dogs are Border Collies, and if they are not, the % is even higher). OK, with a sample size of 16 that's not saying much, but it is also representative of what I have seen at agility trials (SE PA, mid-Atlantic area, and northern California). If anything, I would guess that the % of odd colored dogs at agility trials was even higher than that, but I tend to be hyper-attuned to red dogs (because I like them) so I might be inflating the actual numbers in my head. Still, the difference between agility and sheepdog trials is very striking.

 

yes, forgot to make it clear they were all BCs. I wouldn't consider the red an odd-colored dog, especially since it's a working-bred dog. It is a very small sample size, but color isn't listed in the entry information, so had to go with the pictures. I don't think the differences are striking, rather predictable. ;-)

[Root Beer]

Another thing to take into consideration when looking at a representative sample of unusually colored Border Collies at sporting events is that we don't know how many of them actually were "selected for color", nor how many were purchased by the handler as a "sport dog in unusual colors".

 

Not to be personal, but I am a verifiable example of this - as I've said before, we did not select Dean for color. If someone saw a picture of us and assumed that I had supported a breeder who breeds Border Collies for color because I "had to have" a "flashy" dog, they would be flat out wrong.

 

I also know a well known Agility handler in my area who has a beautiful red Border Collie - a rescue. If one were to see her dog competing and assume that she had supported a breeder who was breeding for color, he or she would be wrong.

 

There is a very famous Freestyler in England who has a blue merle Border Collie, who is a rescue. Same thing - it would be an incorrect assumption to conclude that she had supported a breeder who was breeding for color.

 

Lest anyone think I'm saying "they're all rescues", of course I'm not. But some of them certainly are and it's something to take into account when looking at percentages of Border Collies of unusual color at sporting events.

 

Personally, I don't consider anyone who gets a Border Collie from rescue - no matter what color the dog might be, trains the dog to do a sport, and then competes with the dog as someone who is contributing to the ruination of the breed, nor as someone who is in the target market for these particular breeders. Those of us who deliberately seek out our sport dogs from rescue are a minority, but we are still a considerable presence that does exist in the dog sport world. At least in my area - there are a ton of rescue options here. That also might differ from region to region.

[Sue R]

Another thing to take into consideration when looking at a representative sample of unusually colored Border Collies at sporting events is that we don't know how many of them actually were "selected for color", nor how many were purchased by the handler as a "sport dog in unusual colors". Lest anyone think I'm saying "they're all rescues", of course I'm not. But some of them certainly are and it's something to take into account when looking at percentages of Border Collies of unusual color at sporting events.

 

Personally, I don't consider anyone who gets a Border Collie from rescue - no matter what color the dog might be, trains the dog to do a sport, and then competes with the dog as someone who is contributing to the ruination of the breed, nor as someone who is in the target market for these particular breeders. Those of us who deliberately seek out our sport dogs from rescue are a minority, but we are still a considerable presence that does exist in the dog sport world. At least in my area - there are a ton of rescue options here. That also might differ from region to region.

 

I agree with you absolutely here. I also agree with one or more comments you have made about "serious" agility competitors. Like "serious" stockdog handlers/users, they are not going to be interested in cosmetic aspects over and above suitability, talent, and ability.

 

From what I've read on internet ads, and from what I've heard in talking to folks, I think breeders who breed "for color" (or "minis" or whatever other new and unusual "breed" or aspect they are touting) seem to focus their marketing with emphasis on agility. That appears to be where they feel their marketing is successful.

 

I think their market is also the person who wants what everyone else does not have - the "rare" color that somehow is more valuable and worthwhile because it is not "common". I think it boils down to trying to appeal to potential or hobbyist performance sports folks (after all, what is the advantage of a Border Collie - it's for someone who wants an active, athletic, intelligent dog - a dog that you have to do something with) and even hobby "herding" folks (hence the ads that tout "top quality working dogs" as well, even though the breeding stock is often novice or pro-novice at best, or better yet, never really tested in a real stockwork situation).

 

The promotion of these breeders is aimed at the novice and newbie who may be interested in doing something with the pup/dog. That's where these folks make their sales and their money. The serious are beyond that point in their learning curve.

 

All this is simply my opinion.

[Vicki G.]

I have to thank this board, because before I found it and read the posts about breeding for color I was looking at a blue merle- purely for the color. I was new to the breed 2 yrs ago and thought I was being responsible because hips were OFA'd and eyes cerf'd- we have cattle and wanted a companion who would be able to help us with them. I bought the first female (she'll be 2 in Jan) no papers from a cattle farmer who had pups from working parents. She's fantastic as a pet and doing very well with training- I'm told I should be able to trail with her if I can do as well as her . I am as green as you can be with herding so I am fortunate to be very close to a good trainer. Our 2nd girl will be 1 in Feb also bl/wh and will start training soon. Do I think blue merles are beautiful dogs- yes, but with the amount of time and money that goes into training -beauty is as beauty does.

[Vicki G.]

oops- meant trial with her not trail

[Katelynn & Gang]

NVM.

[juliepoudrier]

I'm a bit confused by this whole discussion really. Kristine, you say that in your area, there aren't many unusually colored dogs. And you also seem to be saying that in your experience, people aren't choosing unusually colored dogs for sports (based on what you see in your area--and you don't say whether you travel a lot or stay within your region, however large that is). When others have pointed out that they see the opposite of what you've seen/experienced, you admit that the situation may be different in different regions. Then you say you have examples of people with unusually colored dogs, but they're all rescues. I *think* your larger premis is that there's no way to know why people choose what they choose, at least not without asking, and maybe it's a roundabout way of trying to get others to stop assuming that "candy colored dogs" = "sports mentality"? If so, it seems to me it would have been eaiser just to say, "You know, unless we know someone personally and know why they chose their dog, there's no way to no if color was a factor" and leave it at that. Instead, we seem to be having this convoluted and repetitive discussion and I' no longer sure what it is we're trying to determine.

 

Several people, myself included, have pointed out that the most likely scenario is complete newbies who see the ads for cool colors and decide to get one and then perhaps get into whatever sport, but I also know of breeders who have lists of folks waiting for a red puppy or some other color--and these are not necessarily newbie folks, so there also must be at least some demand at the other end (i.e., the competitor who wants a specific color, perhaps all other things being equal).

 

J.

[Root Beer]

I'm a bit confused by this whole discussion really. Kristine, you say that in your area, there aren't many unusually colored dogs. And you also seem to be saying that in your experience, people aren't choosing unusually colored dogs for sports (based on what you see in your area--and you don't say whether you travel a lot or stay within your region, however large that is).

 

OK, that's pretty straightforward.

 

When others have pointed out that they see the opposite of what you've seen/experienced, you admit that the situation may be different in different regions.

 

True. I've definitely pointed that out a few times.

 

Then you say you have examples of people with unusually colored dogs, but they're all rescues. I *think* your larger premis is that there's no way to know why people choose what they choose, at least not without asking, and maybe it's a roundabout way of trying to get others to stop assuming that "candy colored dogs" = "sports mentality"?

 

Kind of, but not exactly. I'm not really trying to make a particular point. My interest, which led me to make my original post, was to try to gain an understanding of why people would consider color to be a truly relevant factor in choosing a dog for sports.

 

Since I don't personally know people who have done this, I put the question out to the board to see if anyone here had any insight into this.

 

I brought up the fact that some of the dogs that we see in sports are, in fact, rescues, as a response to points that were brought up in the course of the discussion later by other posters, not as something that really relates to my original question.

 

If so, it seems to me it would have been eaiser just to say, "You know, unless we know someone personally and know why they chose their dog, there's no way to no if color was a factor" and leave it at that. Instead, we seem to be having this convoluted and repetitive discussion and I' no longer sure what it is we're trying to determine.

 

I'm sorry you found the discussion convoluted and repetetive. I've actually found it interesting and I've gained some really good insight from it.

 

If the point of my original post were to make a statement, such as you make above, then I would agree that it would have been the thing to just come out and say it, but that was not my intent. I was interested in what others had to say on the subject.

 

While I can't speak for anyone other than myself, what I was trying to determine is, "Why would one look for a particular color for a Border Collie for sports? What advantage would one hope to gain by doing so?"

 

Based on this discussion, I believe that the answer to his question is best summed up in Sue R's post just above, which you also reiterated pretty much.

 

Several people, myself included, have pointed out that the most likely scenario is complete newbies who see the ads for cool colors and decide to get one and then perhaps get into whatever sport, but I also know of breeders who have lists of folks waiting for a red puppy or some other color--and these are not necessarily newbie folks, so there also must be at least some demand at the other end (i.e., the competitor who wants a specific color, perhaps all other things being equal).

 

And I've pretty much come to the same conclusion myself. I apologize if I did not make that clear.

 

As far as I'm concerned, though, if others want to continue to add input to the discussion, I don't see how that's a bad thing.