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"The Dog Whisperer"

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ArchersMomma,

 

I am in complete agreement with you. Cesar does not "rehabilitate" dogs. He uses fear tactics to intimidate dogs. He doesn't solve any problems, he covers them up.

 

 

Flooding doesn't work with humans, either. It just mentally shuts them down.

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I haven't seen any of his shows. I have read one book by him. It was OK, but nothing special.

 

However, I'd like to point out that not all techniques work with all dogs. The first dog I owned as an adult was a border collie - german shepherd mix. Frankly, I beat him when he was bad, then 'forgave' him within 5 minutes. I would never use that approach now, but there is no doubt that Chris did fine with it. He was a big (100+ lbs) tough dog with a hopelessly good nature. In spite of how I treated him, we were best friends for his almost 15 years. He was cheerful, friendly, smart, loyal, and in every way I can think of was an outstanding dog. In spite of me.

 

While he was alive, I got another purebred German Shepherd bitch. I used the same technique, and it failed miserably. I found myself flailing, trying to figure out why what worked so well with Chris was terrible with Peso. I adjusted, and she partially forgave me - but only partially. However, I was a lot smarter by the time I got a Border Collie bitch. Leila had a mix of negative reinforcement and positive (a word or two of praise...she didn't do 'treats'). The pound mutt I own right now (we're the third family) would freak if we even looked harshly at him. It was a year before we could look at him sternly without him hiding.

 

I've also had 3 kids, and currently own 3 horses. None of the kids and none of the horses respond in the same way as the others.

 

At 50, I've come to believe you should learn as many different techniques as possible, and use what works for that particular individual. If you are having success, great. Don't pat yourself on the back too much - I did until my kids hit 19! If it isn't working, think about the INDIVIDUAL and adjust accordingly. I've never owned a dog that would cross the room to get a 'treat', but that doesn't mean it never works. I didn't need to beat Chris, but he was a great dog anyways.

 

Dogs, horses and kids are all individuals. If there is a 'one way works for all' technique out there, I haven't seen it.

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I like Victoria Stillwell on It's Me or the Dog (even if I was very disappointed, though not surprised by her attitude towards crating).

 

I just had to comment... what's up with her views on crating? Where did she get this weird idea that dogs experience the world exactly like we do? From what I've seen... her training methods focus on treating dogs like dogs; but then, I saw this episode where she made a woman get in a crate in order to see "what it's like for a dog." It was pretty ridiculous. Even considering the "average pet owner" IQ- I wouldn't want to encourage people to not crate their dogs. As many of us know- it's not safe for some (or possibly even "most") dogs to be left out to wander the house unsupervised!

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As many of us know- it's not safe for some (or possibly even "most") dogs to be left out to wander the house unsupervised!

 

I understand the theory behind crating, and see its value to train young dogs as well as safely contain older dogs who may be a harm to themselves or others. I also "get" that in multi-dog households, crating can be a safety help, as well as give peace of mind. And I know the whole den theory - that lots of dogs love their crates. (Buddy has no crate, but he does have a bed under a table that he loves - and I do often wish I had crate-trained him, so I could travel more easily with his "bed.")

 

I do think, though, that there's been a big and not necessarily positive shift to crating as a universal for dog ownership. I had never heard of it till about 1987. Prior to that, everyone I knew let dogs run free about the house, all the time. Honestly, outside of the puppy days (when we all kept baby dogs in boxes at night anyway, or blocked them into a small bathroom or corner of the kitchen), I don't remember there being a whole lot of trouble with dogs in the house, loose. My dog has been home loose alone since the third day I got him. All my siblings' dogs are loose all day in their respective houses. All is well. Buddy moves from sunny spot to sunny spot all day, bed to floor to blankie, watches cats and occasionally takes a drink of water. Big exciting day.

 

I think crating is a tool a dog owner can use - just like a prong collar or Halti. But I'm a skeptic about its daily necessity for "most" dogs. In my area, at least, long hours of crating seem to often replace good training and the eventual granting of freedom to a dog, which seems like a natural progression.

Mary

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I just had to comment... what's up with her views on crating?

 

I've run into a strong anti-crate sentiment with a number of people from Europe. It sounds like crates are used very sparingly there -- along the lines of Victoria's "no more than 3 hours per day!" edict. There also seems to be a strong sentiment that if you work all day, then you shouldn't own dogs. This was a very prevalent attitude in the 80's here in the states. I remember when I was looking for a dog in 86, I was browsing through dog care books and they all said the same thing. Until I came across a small little paperback called The Weekend Dog written for owners who work full time. It was the first time I heard of crating. Now I can't imagine raising a puppy without a crate.

 

I suppose if I stayed home, I could use a crate no more than 3 hours per day with a small puppy. I think she prefers putting the puppy in a small room when leaving the house or unable to supervise. The problem there is how many stories have we heard (or worse, experienced) where a puppy or young dog did tons of damage in that small room -- chewing on woodwork, through doors, into walls, ruining furniture, pulling up tile or linoleum? I love knowing my puppy and belongings are safe when I leave the house, but that's just me. :D

 

Once a dog is trustworthy in my house (which generally ranges from less than a year to age 2), they are no longer crated. My Lhasa is the exception because he will mark and I just find that unacceptable. He seems very cozy in his roomy crate with a soft bed. Sometimes I wish I had a little den like that for myself. :rolleyes: Otherwise, my dogs are fine loose. I still have Quinn's huge crate in the spare room because I like to put him there to shed dirt on muddy days. Crate training also comes in handy when you need to keep a dog on restricted activity due to injury or illness, I've found.

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We started Scooter with crate training the day after we brought him home. He took to it immediately. We put it in the laundry room, then put a baby gate up in the doorway. That way he was able to go in and out of the crate as he chose, and had the freedom to do a little roaming around the room too. We did have the chewing on the drywall once or twice, but generally it worked out well. We still use the crate if we're going to be gone for several hours, and have since moved the crate to the basement. At night, he is free to roam the house, usually choosing the den or the basement. So, we use a combination of crate and free reign, depending on the situation.

 

As for Cesar, I find that he has some interesting things to say, as does Victoria. I like to watch all the dog trainers on t.v. Each one has their own style and methods that they prefer. I learn a little something from each one of them. Some things have worked with Scooter, some haven't. As I've mentioned before when this topic came up, it is after all, entertainment. If you really need a dog trainer, find one in your area that can help.

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Holy cow!! I sure know how to start a thread on here don't I! :D

 

So I have read everything that's been said here and on the weekend I watched two more episodes of CM and I think I still feel the same way with some minor exceptions based on what I learned from you all...

 

First...I do think he helps the people that are on the show. However, as a few of you pointed out, these people also have NO idea about dogs, IMO. They anthropomorphise their dogs and then can't understand why they run into problems. :D So in that sense, his use of pack mentality teaching (I think) helps these owners to recognize that their dogs are just that...dogs, not people or their "children".

 

Second...I think that he is made out to be much better than he really is...but then, it IS for t.v. so what else should I expect? :rolleyes: I do think he's good with dogs and understands them...but I also think there are "friendlier" ways that he could be teaching the dogs. My example with the prong collar was not with a thick furred Chow but with a tightly groomed standard poodle who would go into the spins every time a car went by. I thought a gentle leader would have been a much more reasonable tool to teach these people to use since they had NO idea how to train their dog. I agree that prong collars do have a place in training some dogs...I just happen to think it's very unfortunate that any schmuck off the street can go and buy one without any knowledge (or desire to learn about) how to properly use one. Having CM use one on his show is irresponsible, IMHO, particularly if he's not going to discuss their proper use.

 

I also watched him "kick" from behind a bulldog who wanted to chase skateboards. Now he wasn't hurting the dog, but still it's a surprise that the dog is always waiting for and therefore stops chasing the skateboard. The technique worked but I still don't think the dog understood that he should leave the skateboard alone because it's the right thing to do, not because he wants to avoid getting kicked.

 

As for crating...which has also come up in this topic...I have to say I'm very torn by it. I have met Susan Garret and think her dogs are amazing....for agility and sports...but for the average family pet, I'm not so sure about some of her techniques...I want a pet dog not a zombie dog....but again, this is based upon my very limited exposure.

 

However, my Archer certainly requires a strong level of restraint and control because the wee bugger gets into everything!! Liam has more plastic dinosaurs, action figures and farm animals without handies, legs and feeties than any kid I know! For some reason that's all Archer does...he de-limbs and then looks for something else! :D:D Freaks me out because I keep waiting for some intestinal thing to happen to him! I try to keep him out of that stuff but MAN he's sneaky!!

 

So now he's either tied to the banister near to where I sit in the evenings or he is crated unless we are playing, training, or out walking and running him. When he's tied he plays with the cat non-stop and has plenty of toys to chew...and if he's not tied, then we're working on training. So, I can't say crate training is a bad thing...but once I know he can be trusted, he will no longer be crated unless he chooses it.

 

Thanks everyone for your honest and forthright conversation, opinions and knowledge. I learned a lot here and hopefully it will carry me onward to a better understanding of how to live happily with my fur companion and give him the best life I possibly can.

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I just had to comment... what's up with her views on crating? Where did she get this weird idea that dogs experience the world exactly like we do? From what I've seen... her training methods focus on treating dogs like dogs; but then, I saw this episode where she made a woman get in a crate in order to see "what it's like for a dog." It was pretty ridiculous. Even considering the "average pet owner" IQ- I wouldn't want to encourage people to not crate their dogs. As many of us know- it's not safe for some (or possibly even "most") dogs to be left out to wander the house unsupervised!

 

This is funny, I have no idea who this woman is. But I just got Odin a new crate for work that's soft sided, has a "moon roof" and is really large. I had crawled in it to prop up the collapsible struts when some co-workers came by to make fun - "Who's crate training who?" since Odin was watching me with fascination. But I thought it was really nice in there, like a cool tent from northface or something. A couple of co workers even got it (separately). Then all day long I had to hear the joke over and over again, "It's like he's got his own office!" "He loves it in there - but so would I! I wish *my* office was that nice!" I started snapping "yeah, like he's got his own office, hmmm" at everyone to head them off at the pass because I was so sick of the comment. So her method of proving how cruel it is didn't really work in that instance!

 

But mbc, I also really agree with you that dogs always used to be left free (thinking my house, relatives, friends, etc) and on whole caused very little trouble. I crate trained Odin and am glad he is, but look forward to someday leaving him out around the house. The cats are out, and they get into trouble all the time anyway. :rolleyes: Life goes on. (Although the three of them could cause exponential trouble.... frightening thought).

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You know, with the dogs always used to be left free thing, it's true, and I don't know how old the rest of you are, but generally when I was growing up, someone was almost always at home too, and I think that's a big difference between then and now. That is, the dogs weren't confined, but usually there was a human around. Nowadays, with two-income couples (often out of necessity) or single folks who work, there's no one home a good part of the day, and so perhaps crating for safety (of both house and dog) makes more sense now than it did then. I work from home, so my dogs aren't crated very often, but on the occasional days I have to go into the office, they do get crated, for reasons I've stated before. If I worked away from home full time, they'd probably spend more time in crates than they do now (and this has been the case in the past), but I think that as long as I gave them quality time when I am home, it worked out okay. The problem is when people use crates as a substitute for training...

 

J.

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You know, with the dogs always used to be left free thing, it's true, and I don't know how old the rest of you are, but generally when I was growing up, someone was almost always at home too, and I think that's a big difference between then and now. That is, the dogs weren't confined, but usually there was a human around. Nowadays, with two-income couples (often out of necessity) or single folks who work, there's no one home a good part of the day, and so perhaps crating for safety (of both house and dog) makes more sense now than it did then.

 

I'm from the latchkey-kid generation - when people also left their young children unattended, without even cell phones for safety!

 

I know Odin would get into trouble unsupervised, and am glad for the crate. Heck, I work from home a lot and am grateful for it then too. But I can envision a dog left alone for much of the day but with good enough habits and behaviors to be trusted.

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But I just got Odin a new crate for work that's soft sided, has a "moon roof" and is really large.

 

I have one of those for Dean and Speedy, too. I love them and so do the dogs.

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As for crating...which has also come up in this topic...I have to say I'm very torn by it. I have met Susan Garret and think her dogs are amazing....for agility and sports...but for the average family pet, I'm not so sure about some of her techniques...I want a pet dog not a zombie dog....but again, this is based upon my very limited exposure.

 

Hi. I've only seen Susan on DVD and read some of her stuff, but would like to see her in person some day. I love Shaping Success but had very mixed feelings about Ruff Love. What do you mean by zombie dog? Also, there is crating and then there is crating the Ruff Love way to get a certain kind of performance from your dog. Is that what you're referring to? Because I couldn't see myself following the Ruff Love program except if I felt the dog was completely unbonded to me despite other attempts to improve the relationship. I know some people love that program and swear by it. I never felt I had the focus and discipline to do it correctly and done incorrectly, I think it could be very hard on the puppy or dog.

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Just curious whether anyone else will find themselves wincing when they watch Blue Sky's video.

 

Yep. "The dog is relaxed ..." NOT! The dog is so obsessed with the treat bag that it has stopped being a dog and has turned into a leash-bound robot. And with all the collars, straps, halters, etc., I thought maybe I had stumbled onto some sort of fetish video.

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Sometimes CM drives me crazy, sometimes I want to shake his hand (especially when he is emphasizing exercise and "he/she is a DOG"). To be honest though, I haven't seen too many episodes of his show. A friend who really likes him gave me his copy of "Cesar's Way" (which I thought was incredibly boring) and 2 dvds which seemed to show mostly the same few episodes.

 

The thing that really bothered me about CM? I saw an episode of "Bones" that was about dog fighting, and he was in it. Great episode, and for the most part pretty accurate. However, when they busted the dog fighting ring Cesar walks into a room of crazed fighting dogs chained up and immediately makes them all be quiet and lie down. Riiiight. I know it is fiction, but please, they tried to present it as magic or something. But then, I couldn't stand The Horse Whisperer movie either. =P

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I saw that episode of "Bones", too. I loved that they were highlighting the evils of dog fighting, but the CM stuff was ridiculous. I can't walk into my living room, raise my hand and go "tssst, tssst" and quiet my OWN dogs. That requires yelling. :D:rolleyes:

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I saw that episode of "Bones", too. I loved that they were highlighting the evils of dog fighting, but the CM stuff was ridiculous. I can't walk into my living room, raise my hand and go "tssst, tssst" and quiet my OWN dogs. That requires yelling. :D:rolleyes:

 

 

It was a few years ago- but one of our favorite South Park episodes is the Dog Whisperer one. After Cartman's mother tries multiple child behavior therapists, the Nanny, etc- she finally calls Cesar and it works LOL. The best part is the broncy child on the end of the leash- while Cesar tsssts!

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I kind of enjoyed the Bones episode though it really was a stretch to believe that he could do as described above, or even when the dogs were crated and misbehaving. But given how popular he seems to be, I think it's a good thing he appeared on that show with the anti-dog-fighting message and I saw it as sort of Cesar not taking himself too seriously (you know the whole point at a pack of chained, ravening dogs, say "Psssst" and they all lie down and get quiet--I saw it as sort of poking fun at himself, but then maybe that's jus because I knew it wouldn't really work that way.) Good show!

 

J.

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I do think he's good with dogs and understands them...but I also think there are "friendlier" ways that he could be teaching the dogs. My example with the prong collar was not with a thick furred Chow but with a tightly groomed standard poodle who would go into the spins every time a car went by. I thought a gentle leader would have been a much more reasonable tool to teach these people to use since they had NO idea how to train their dog. I agree that prong collars do have a place in training some dogs...I just happen to think it's very unfortunate that any schmuck off the street can go and buy one without any knowledge (or desire to learn about) how to properly use one. Having CM use one on his show is irresponsible, IMHO, particularly if he's not going to discuss their proper use.

 

 

I agree that there are friendlier ways that he could use! I don't think using a prong on the standard poodle was a bright idea, either, but I wouldn't have recommended a GL either (I'm not a fan of head halters, anyway so maybe I'm more biased than most). Prong collars are widely available, but so are GL's and Haltis. I've seen how people are able to take any tool and abuse it (think choke chain hanging or helicoptering, popping prong collars repededly, etc) and I think a head halter is no exception. I have seen one too many people use a GL attached to a flexi on a dog who runs and hits the end, snapping their head to the side. That's gotta hurt, and in no way could the dogs neck muscles be prepared for that jolt (the same jolt happens in schutzhund, but the dogs KNOW what they're doing and the muscles lock in preparation).

I've handled everything from body harnesses to electronic collars, and I think they all have their place...my big peeve is the idiots who buy a "magic training tool", slap it on, and expect it to train their dog for them (most seen IME with e-collars, ugh).

In my very humble opinion, it's like the pillow analogy...a pillow isn't and shouldn't be a dangerous thing, until someone gets the idea to smother someone. A prong shouldn't be a dangerous tool, a head halter shouldn't be a dangerous tool, neither should an e-collar...the dangerous tools in this situation are people who buy that magic training tool, misuse it, and the dog suffers. JMO. :rolleyes:

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It was a few years ago- but one of our favorite South Park episodes is the Dog Whisperer one. After Cartman's mother tries multiple child behavior therapists, the Nanny, etc- she finally calls Cesar and it works LOL. The best part is the broncy child on the end of the leash- while Cesar tsssts!

 

 

I have never laughed so hard in my life :rolleyes: I loved the part with the chicken, and Cartman is leaping around screeching "gimme some chicken! gimme some chicken!" and Cesar and Cartmans mom are standing there, eating the KFC like he doesn't exist.

And FTR, just out of curiousity, I poked Auz on the butt and went "TSST" once, and he bounced around, barking and playbowing. He loves it when I whap him on the butt with a toy, so I figured this was no different to him. They know "Quit" means "you're annoying me", and "Shut up" means "your mouth is really annoying me" and "THATS IT" means you'd better run because you went too far!

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As for crating...which has also come up in this topic...I have to say I'm very torn by it.

******************

 

 

Just a quick note on a crating, then I gotta get back to work...(why do I always decide on my day off to clean my house and vaccuum out my car)? :rolleyes:

 

I crate train all my dogs as puppies or newbie adults. Dude the papillon hasn't been crated overnight since his second night here (an 8 week old pap that could "hold it" all night? I love this little dog). Auz was crated when unsupervised til he was about a year old, and overnight til he was two.

I had/have no intentions of crating my dogs whenever they're not active for the rest of their lives, and I don't. BUT--it has been a God send to have dogs who are content and un-stressed when in a crate. If they have to be caged for some reason, it's not going to send them over the top. If I had a sick dog who had to stay at the vets for a week in a 2x3 cage, I sure wouldn't want the cage stressing them out and possibly making it worse.

Also, I crate train my barn cats as kittens. It's so much nicer, but it does take some time and dedication. During this time of the year when the farmers are taking the corn off, talk about peace of mind knowing my cats are confined and can't get mangled by the machinery, and they're not freaked out by the fact they ARE confined. And hauling them to the vet to get SN was a breeze. (The ferals were another story).

I'm pro crating, but as I said in my other post...it can be abused.

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I like him. I do not think he overly aggressive. He understands that a dog is a dog and they need a certain structure to be happy. Dogs are pack animals and they need to see their owner as the 'boss'. When they don't will become unruly, it's just a matter of time. He teaches a good mix of discipline, exercise and affection. Without all three I believe a dog isn't as happy as he could be...

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I like him. I do not think he overly aggressive. He understands that a dog is a dog and they need a certain structure to be happy.

 

Dog Whisperer was on last night and one of the shows had a little pekeapoo that was threatening and biting her owner when told to give up food or toys and when being brushed. Even drew blood. The owner would speak very sternly to the dog at these times and it was very obvious she handling the little mop of fur all wrong. The owner had an emotional "mommy never wanted her little baby to be mean" moment when explaining the problem to Cesar.

 

Here's an example none of his detractors ever mention: Cesar's fix for this owner and her little dog was that the woman stop using her deep, stern voice when trying to take something from the dog or dealing with misbehavior. His take was that the dog didn't see that as "authentic" and in addition the dog only required a very light touch. In her attempt to be a strong leader, the woman was setting the dog off. But speaking quietly, sweetly even but also firmly the dog was wonderful about giving up items it had in its mouth. Brushing took a bit more but they got there as well.

 

He actually can be flexible -- depending on what he sees going on with both the dogs and the owners. And these owners, like many people out there, truly are clueless about training or dog behavior. They often don't seem able to do the simplest problem solving when dealing with behaviors they don't like.

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Do you really want to get me started on this guy?!?!?

 

I don't have cable so I can't watch Cesar. However, having heard so much about him, I bought his original book and caught a few episodes at a friend's house. Two immediate impressions. First, he's not as bad as I had originally feared. Second, he's so incredibly simplistic that I can see why he appeals to dog owners who want instant (rather than permanent) results. And that is what really scares me, that people will simplify his already simplistic notions, go with the whole alpha dominance thing, and create disaster.

 

What's good about him? No doubt most American pets could use more exercise. We are a nation of chubby humans with equally chubby dogs. Not good for the health of either species. And for behavior problems, you just can't beat the old adage that "A tired dog is a good dog." I also think that it would behoove many dog owners to remember that they are dealing with a member of a different species--no matter how emotionally close to the dog you are, you'll never quite view the world from the same perspective. I also agree that there are alternatives to dumping the dog at the local shelter because he has issues.

 

But how do you deal with those issues? Cesar Milan isn't on the same page as Ian Dunbar, Patricia McConnell, or Nicholas Dodman--hell, they aren't even on the same book! (I note that Cesar seems to be doing some name dropping to legitimatize his methods. Kind of like, "Look, so-and-so agrees with me." On one small point, Cesar. On one small point.) To avoid being on this blog all day, I just feel that Cesar's methods center on dominating the dog, MAKING him do what you want, as opposed to training the dog to WANT to do things your way. The first method creates a dog who'll only behave correctly when he perceives you're within striking distance. The second method creates a dog who does the right thing whether you're there to dominate him or not because he has internalized the motivation for "being a good dog."

 

I guess the thing that kills me about the whole Cesar dealie is that, to the best of my knowledge, Cesar has yet to walk on water. But you'd never know that to hear a lot of people talk. Especially when I hear people babble nonsense about Cesar's take on wolf pack operation, I just really REALLY want to scream!

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Can we really say that anyone as effective as he can be is an "idiot"? Its one thing to say you disagree with someone's methods, but to insult the man seems a bit juvenile. Lets face it, not every dog is going to need certain methods of training, but the majority of dogs owned by people who don't work at their training needs some kind of discipline. I've watched his show and was surprised that a network would actually show someone correcting dogs, instead of just clicker training, and I was glad to see it. I think that there is an unfortunate development in the pet world that is growing to the "pet parent" and not enough towards a responsible pet owner, and I think that his show brings a lot of awareness to people that in order to have a happy living situation with any dog, that they must take the leadership role.

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I've watched his show and was surprised that a network would actually show someone correcting dogs, instead of just clicker training, and I was glad to see it. I think that there is an unfortunate development in the pet world that is growing to the "pet parent" and not enough towards a responsible pet owner, and I think that his show brings a lot of awareness to people that in order to have a happy living situation with any dog, that they must take the leadership role.

 

Hi DJF, I'm sure you didn't mean to imply this, but I did just want to jump in here to clarify a few things!

 

Clicker Trainer does not = "Pet Parent" mentality

 

Clicker Trainer does not = irresponsible pet owner

 

Clicker Trainer does not = person who has no leadership role with his or her pet (clicker training will, in fact, fail outright if the human person doing the training is not actively being a leader)

 

Thanks from a responsible clicker trainer whose living situation with her dogs is quite happy! :rolleyes::D :D

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