Worried about Odin

[Ooky]

I am starting to get pretty worried about Odin, whose limp in his front leg gets worse even as we restrict his activity further and further. Due to his age (7.5 months), obviously I'm terrified it's OCD. I've taken him to the vet for it once already and he wasn't limping at the vet. I think she thought I was crazy, and possibly made a note in my chart that I have Munchausen's by proxy or something. But he had already been limping on and off for about 2 weeks at that point, and just happened to not limp that morning.

 

Here's what happened. We went to CO for a weekend about a month ago and left him with the in-laws and their dobie MArgie. By all accounts they had a really really great time and ran around like maniacs the whole weekend. When he came back, he had this limp for the first time.

 

We restricted his activity by reducing the number, length, and speed of his walks, stopped all fetch, especially any fetch outside, took extra care with his everyday movements around the house i.e. making him stop racing around during normal play with Benway or me or whatever (not that it matters much since as others say about their pups he pretty much tries to launch himself across the house at any opportunity). I took him to work more, where he got non-athletic stimulation and was in a crate for 7.5-8 hours, plus a 2 hour resting commute in the car.

 

And in a week after the initial limp, he seemed completely better. I had a beach bar-b-q work function I had to attend that next weekend, and we took him and camped in Aptos. We knew this would be tough on his leg, but it's the beach, you know? He met my boss's 11 yr old daughter and 8 yr old son and Odin literally and absolutely fell in LOVE. Esp. with the girl, who didn't run him excessively with frisbee (but it is the beach so sand-running), and made him do commands for every fetch. DH and I took turns periodically taking him out of the play and holding him, but his whole body was just tensed towards the volleyball or whatever was going on. It lasted all day and into the night, and the next morning he was just staggering around. I felt terrible.

 

So we redoubled our efforts, took him to the vet (with the result you see above) and now we've been keeping him as immobile as possible with a 7month old BC pup w/o going to complete crate rest (which he gets more and more of as his limp seems to worsen). He limps worse when he moves after being still for a long time, AND after any sort of over-the-edge fun or exercise (like crashing down the stairs, rolling his own ball, or playing tug for a bit). He's on Metacam (from the vet). Glu-Chnd supplement daily. Diet is grainfree kibble (TOW) + raw foods.

 

I think I broke my puppy. I'm making another appointment, but can anyone give me suggestions for 1) making sure he stays clam without going crazy over this extended period; 2) any experience or ideas anyone has I might throw at the vet when we go back; and 3) if it is OCD, what will happen? Will surgery fix him? Finally, he's SO good, given how energetic he is and how much I just keep not letting him do much. How bad can this be for his development to keep him so quiet? I guess on the bright side he now has about a 1000% better off switch than 4 weeks ago.

 

Thanks in advance for any info, ideas, or advice.

[stockdogranch]

I have a couple of thoughts. One: soft tissue injury. This would make sense, especially if it initially presented after a lot of running and playing. For this one, keeping him as quiet as possible (of course, that's the tricky part!), plus the Metacam or other anti-inflammatory should help. Soft tissue can take quite a while to heal--one of mine had a soft tissue injury to a shoulder and she stayed off work (mostly just sleeping on the couch watching TCM) for over 2 weeks (it may have actually been a month--my memory sucks), as I recall. Then she was still on very restricted activity--mostly just out to potty, but we included swimming 3 times a week for muscle toning with no joint stress. That went on for 2 weeks before she was allowed to really go back to work. This was after X-rays and a joint tap to check the joint fluid. Nothing remarkable showed up, so soft tissue injury was the diagnosis. That was a year and a half ago, and she has been fine since. Puts in some incredibly long, hard days working.

 

Second thought: something called Pano (I think the full name is panosteitis), and from what I recall, it just has something to do with growth (uneven or rapid or something). I believe it's still OK to exercise, even though common sense tells you not to. This can actually move around, like from one leg to another, and can also be intermittent, I believe. They just grow out of it. This usually occurs between 5 months and a year old, as I recall.

 

Third thought: anytime there is intermittent limping, I always check for TBDs. Usually, there will be other symptoms--no appetite, lethargy, etc., but not always. TBDs are really tricky, as in you can get no titers but be symptomatic, or have titers and no symptoms, etc. They can lie subclinical for a long time, and then some stressor can make them manifest. And the limping associated with these can certainly move around and can also be intermittent, as well.

 

I'm certainly not a vet, but have been through lots of different issues with lots of dogs over the years, so these would be my best guesses, in this order.

 

A

[Alaska]

Make a video of him when he limps that you can show to the vet. Good luck.

[stockdogranch]

Another thought on pano--some theories suggest high levels of protein in their food might be connected to this in pups. The grain free food you are feeding, I'm assuming, would be pretty high in protein. Might be a connection...

 

A

[BCjetta]

I know some dogs with pano will very strongly react if you squeeze the humerus and femur, wheras not react when you squeeze bones lower down on the legs. Its one of the things the vet I work for checks on young dogs with a limp. If it is pano, it tends to go away after a while, and its not going to injure him do some walking and running around as long as he's not reckless.

If he were my dog, I'd be doing x-rays of his elbow and shoulder joints (to get good ones he'd need anesthetic or sedation) to rule out any bone or joint problems.

[Root Beer]

You might ask around to your friends and see if any of them know of a good ortho vet.

 

When I took Speedy to an ortho vet, she didn't even need to see him limp! I described the trouble, she felt around in his shoulders, x-rayed him and was able to diagnose the problems correctly and recommend appropriate treatment.

[sweet_ceana]

Make a video of him when he limps that you can show to the vet. Good luck

I agree, we made a video of Ceana's crazy gait for the vet

[Ooky]

Thank you again everyone for your replies. A, thank you especially, I had never even heard of panosteitis before and his symptoms, at least as I can tell, match that as much as OCD. He will be going in for sedated radiographs within the week and Alaska and Ceana's mom, I think you are spot on with the video idea. Our vet has an ortho guy so I will ask about that too.

 

Kristine and Ceana's mom, if you don't mind my asking, what were your dog's symptoms/diagnoses? Did they get limps like these when they were puppies too?

 

It's so sad to see him so restricted (even though he is still his normal loving, happy self). I know how much he loves to play. Hopefully we'll be back there soon.

[juliepoudrier]

No matter what the problem, and my first thought would have been OCD, you probably will just have to bite the bullet and do a full period of crate rest. While it may be tough on both you and him, I can tell you that in the long run it will be the best thing you can do, because if full crate rest is prescribed and you follow it to the letter you can save Odin taking much longer to recover, and in the case of some potential problems, may even save yourselves having to resort to surgery. In other words pay now, or pay later.

 

J.

[Ooky]

No matter what the problem, and my first thought would have been OCD, you probably will just have to bite the bullet and do a full period of crate rest. While it may be tough on both you and him, I can tell you that in the long run it will be the best thing you can do, because if full crate rest is prescribed and you follow it to the letter you can save Odin taking much longer to recover, and in the case of some potential problems, may even save yourselves having to resort to surgery. In other words pay now, or pay later.

 

J.

Yeah, I totally get that. But I've read crate rest only works about 50% of the time and surgery almost always works (if it's OCD). Now, I'm a surgery-phobe. But don't you think 6-8 weeks of full-on crate rest will affect his development (mentally and physically?) I know there is a required period of recovery for surgery, and maybe it's just as long or longer?

 

I really do not know whether I have a vet I can trust yet, although they do come with good recs. Any info I can bring to our next consultation will be helpful. We have not hit the full crate rest stage yet but I can tell you we are as close to it as you can be. It's just so frustrating because nothing I do re: his activity levels seems to help at all. In any case we will follow whatever treatment necessary to make him well.

 

I wish I knew what joint was even affected! He has no visible swelling, full range of motion, and does not seem to react painfully to joint manipulation. I haven't tried squeezing him yet, but am wondering if maybe the vet should do that.

 

Thanks again for your help.

[Chesney's Girl]

Another thought on pano--some theories suggest high levels of protein in their food might be connected to this in pups. The grain free food you are feeding, I'm assuming, would be pretty high in protein. Might be a connection...

 

A

 

What about pups that are raised on RAW? Their diets are strictly protein. I think the excess protein Anna talks about with the kibble is the fact that excess protein means excess calories which puts weight on a growing pup making them too heavy which then puts unintended stress on open plates and growing joints. But I don't think its the actual protein that has to do with pano problems... I could be wrong though.

 

Good luck with finding a solution with Odin

[Ooky]

Thanks so much for everyone's kind words and help And he has only been on grainfree (the lowest protein grain free I could find) for a couple of weeks. Before that he was on Spot's Stew, which most people and websites thought didn't have enough protein or fat!

 

He is very slim and gangly (possibly from early neuter). 39 lb and 21". His tuck is quite high and you can feel all the ribs, but not too much.

 

We have been working on videotaping him this morning and his limp DOES switch from leg to leg. We are having an a-ha moment, because we used to actually fight about which side he was limping on. At one point I decided I had no idea how dogs walked b/c I felt like I couldn't tell. Anyway, its something we can show and tell them at the vets. I am futzing around with slo-mo on my mac creative suite, but am neither a good director or film editor.

[juliepoudrier]

Switching around would be more indicative of panno or TBDs, I'd think. Six to eight weeks of strict crate rest should not affect his development (although crate rest wouldn't even be indicated for the two problems I've mentioned here). You'll just have to be more creative to figure out ways to provide mental stimulation (you can wear a dog out much faster making it use its mind than with physical activity). But of course none of us can actually diagnose, so I think if I were you I'd take dog and videos to the vet and get an expert opinion and go from there.

 

My best working dog had intermittent lameness for months. I wasn't working her hard--was hardly working her at all and keeping things easy, but I was not being strict on the crate rest. When I finally buckled down and put her up--no walks with the other dogs--nothing--the lameness stopped. I've had a couple of working dogs that had to go on extended periods of crate rest, and other than needing to work them back up to condition afterward, they did not suffer any ill effects, either mentally or physically.

 

J.

[afrancis]

Kelly,

I am so dim -- I didn't see this thread until I scrolled down and realized that you have been going through the same thing with Odin. Has it come to any resolution yet? I just made an appmt for Skye for early next week with my favourite vet and we'll see about her limp. Seems like its going around .

Ailsa

[Ooky]

Kelly,

I am so dim -- I didn't see this thread until I scrolled down and realized that you have been going through the same thing with Odin. Has it come to any resolution yet? I just made an appmt for Skye for early next week with my favourite vet and we'll see about her limp. Seems like its going around .

Ailsa

 

 

Hi Alisa,

 

No resolution yet, but I have reduced his activity levels even further (after Julie's kind and encouraging post made me feel less like I was warping him). He spends a lot of time in the crate. It does seem to be improving in general but when he gets up after a nap he's like an old man! It also switches from leg to leg but mostly occurs on the right leg, so I don't know what that might mean. We have another appt for the vets on Thursday and I am going to ask for x-rays. Because of his age, he might have some nasty OCD or something Skye is probably not likely to have, I guess? Fingers crossed for both of us!

 

ooky (AKA Kelly )

[SoloRiver]

I'd like to recommend San Francisco Veterinary Specialists. Solo's orthopedist, Dr. Frankel, who I thought was excellent, is no longer there, but I have heard nothing but good things about Dr. Watt. When I brought Solo in to see Dr. Frankel, Solo would not demonstrate his pronounced rear limp either -- I think they overcompensate when they feel threatened, and Solo always feels threatened at the vet -- so they immediately did x-rays and diagnosed the problem. I don't see any point in wondering what is going on with no data, Odin needs x-rays. If the vet you use did not immediately at least put x-rays on the table, that sounds strange to me.

 

Good luck.

[Ooky]

I think she thought I was a hypochondriac since he had no symptoms. It is hard finding a good vet and after giving these people a second chance (who did come highly recommended, are very close to me, and have an ortho specialist in-house), if it does not go well I will certainly give the vet you recommended a call, Melanie. Thank you so much for the rec!

 

I was going to say I would be "demanding" x-rays but thought that might sound a little weird. I will also be asking about OCD, pano, and TBDs. I am prepared for them to think me crazy but don't care at this point - I want an answer and a good treatment strategy. But I really like your idea about overcompensating when scared - he is terrified of the vets because of the thermometer-moment.

[Lenajo]

My personal experience has been that it's OCD (or soft tissue injury) when the lameness stays in the one leg, Pano if it rotates around. Pano is usually described a migrating (leg to leg) lameness. Both can be diagnosed with xray - but I would be reluctant to let anyone but an boarded orthopedic vet make that call.

 

If tick is prevalent in your area, but all means seek treatment. I have also put dogs on Adequen for a few months.

 

Otherwise, my own pups, should as you describe occur, go on 2 weeks strict crate rest, followed by 2 weeks limited walking and crate rest. If they are fat (and they should never be), I take care of that then. And I mean *WALKING*. Not frisbee, not leaping about like a roo on a leash. If after 2 weeks the problem is not resolving/nearly gone, or at 4 weeks the problem is not resolved completely we go forward with the orthopedic appointment.

 

Confinement is not as hard on dogs as it is people.

 

I don't like those no-grain high protein kibbles for puppies. If my pups are getting protein I want it to be the completely digestable, natural sort that raw meat and bones provides.

 

If raw is not possible, I would prefer a moderate kibble - which usually includes high quality grain of some sort.

[denice]

I have had some experience with both Pano and OCD. They can both be seen on xray. Pano usually comes and goes and often seen in one limb than the other where the dog will switch being lame. OCD is more progressive although I had a pup who would appear to be better briefly only to have the lameness reoccur in a short time. It is rather common to have OCD in both shoulders also and is more common in males than females. With good xrays and a good vet they can see the flatening spot on the shoulder or that the cartilege is a slightly different density indicating a spot where it is not formed correctly. In worse cases there will be a chip of cartilege loose in the joint space casing lots of pain. These dogs will have muscle attrify if things progress. I reccommend a ortho vet and possibly sending the radiographys to a vet radiologist. In my case the xrays were not conclusive and I opted to let the vet go in and take a look because I knew if it was OCD it would only get worse. There was loose cartilege and they scaped that off and he is super now. They was a period of only leash walking and crate rest which was tough on both of us. The first week he was sore, after about 5 weeks he was wanting to work again and has not limped since. The vet said no working for 6 mo but we didn't take that much time off. Keeping him quiet was one of the harder things.

 

One thing the vet told me when I trying to decide about surgery was that we should treat the dog not the xray. So if the dog is continually lame there is something wrong and we need to fix it OR if the xray says OCD and the dog isn't ever lame then he wouldn't do surgery.

Hope that helps.

 

Denice, RVT

[Ooky]

We got the diagnosis back today and it is not good - OCD of the right shoulder.

 

Thanks to all with the video suggestions, he was not limping at the vets today either but she took one look at our videos and scheduled him for sedated x rays this afternoon.

 

The x-rays were very clear and showed a smooth, perfect looking left shoulder and a bumpy right, but no floating joint mice are visible. I don't feel like looking up the names but there are two large bumps of cartilage on the humerus, one in front of the other, and both were kind of bumpy or ragged. She recommends him for arthroscopic surgery to be scheduled asap.

 

I am devastated thinking I could have done something to prevent this. I have made a request to a vet friend of mine to send some primary literature my way so I can figure out some stuff. The vet told me she thinks it's primarily genetic as he is so thin, and at first that made me feel better but then I realized if it is genetic this might mean all of his joints are not in good shape, and he could have problems with any of them, and degenerative, chronic worsening too. There is info on the internet to support this theory, so then I am left hoping I actually am to blame for breaking my puppy with poor activity management because that would maybe mean he can be fine after we get this fixed as it would be due to trauma I could prevent.

 

As for his lefty limp at times, she said that didn't mean he has OCD in that shoulder too, b/c the x-rays are textbook perfect on that side. She says she thinks it's because he's been limping and favoring one side and it gets his back all sore. This happened to my grandfather who had a destroyed hip from a staph infection, limped his whole life, and at the end of his life his "healthy" hip was a terrible misery to him from the stress of not walking symmetrically. so I could believe this theory, but am sitting here scaring myself that he will be ouchy all over his whole life and really does have a problem with his other leg too the x-rays just don't see yet.

 

This is why DH keeps threatening to ban me from the internet. I haven't even spoken to the specialist yet.

 

Really, I know it could be worse as this isn't life threatening, beyond the danger from anesthesia. And chronic poor joints, well, I don't need a working dog anyway - I will cherish him no matter what he is able to do in life. I am just very sad for the little guy tonight who I love so much. I am a newbie to dogs but not a newbie to pets, and I know they come back from sedation all weird. But it's so sad to see him all weird. and I know some of it is feeding off my sadness.

 

Anyway, thanks so much to everyone's kind and informative, and very helpful posts.

[afrancis]

Kelly,

I'm sorry to hear this but heartened at least that they have diagnosed it and now it can be treated. I know that I have probably "played" Skye more vigorously than I should have at times -- it is hard to not be carried away by their enthusiasm and obvious pleasure when they're active. Restraint is something I have had to learn as well, esp when it concerns me not showing off the obvious doggie brain I have partnered with. Don't beat yourself up -- I don't think this is something that we can necessarily predict. Odin could have been Owen and not have developed OCD at all with exactly the same amount of activity!

Re: anaesthesia. Yes, they do get weird post-surgery. I had fogotten this. Skye's was on Tuesday, mid-day, and for the first two days she looked at me with such relative confusion and what I interpreted as betrayal ( ) -- I'm sure this is all in my head -- that it broke my heart. That, along with my worry and lack of sleep, has made me slightly wonky too. Just try to keep your feet firmly planted on the ground, eat well, be pragmatic and get some fresh air. And, of course, let us know how it goes.

Ailsa

[juliepoudrier]

I think it's most likely that there is a genetic component that leads dogs to be more prone to OCD, but I also think there's an activity component, and it's usually associated with repetitive high-impact activity. But OCD is very treatable and consider it a lesson learned for the next puppy down the road.... I don't think you need to worry so much about Odin "falling apart" on down the line at any rate.

 

J.

[Lenajo]

in my experience OCD seems to be a limited condition - no connection to hip dysplasia, other joint issues, etc.

 

I think there is a genetic predisposition (in particular lines of fasting growing male dogs) but whether or not they have a problem is both management (food and exercise) and fate (accidents - the "right" stumble or bump).

 

There are some very sound and healthy working dogs who had OCD as a pup.

[Ooky]

Thanks guys. I'm feeling much better today, as I was just despondent and confused last night. But my friend got back to me, and helped me out immensely. She answered all my questions that I have until we see the surgeon on Tuesday.

 

Essentially, both she and the primary lit can only show a conclusive genetic link, and after that it is all confusing correlations. Maybe she was just trying to make me feel better, but my friend agreed with the original vet in thinking because of the size and shape of the affected area, its main cause was most likely congenital but obviously I know I'll never really know why precisely this happened. One thing I didn't understand is that what was all bumpy was the bone, not cartilage, b/c that is mostly invisible on the x-ray. The bumpy cartilage affects the way the bone grows, so he's had this for a while. You were right, that I apparently am very lucky that this (despite stuff on the net to insinuate the contrary ) doesn't tend to crop up in other joints except bilaterally in the same joint. A lot of dogs have it in both shoulders, so it is very good that his left shoulder looks so clean. And apparently of all the joints you can have OCD in, the shoulder has the best prognosis. She told me about supplements I should put him on for the rest of his life, and to go back to hi carb slo-gro kibble as Anna and possibly others here have suggested (he was on grain free while I fed 1/2 raw, but now I will just take my chances with bacteria!). She told me about pricing, and suggestions to vets for new sedatives with "less trippy induction agents" (I liked that line). Then she let me have at the databases for searching.

 

THAT was really interesting - reading the actual studies. Most of them have an N of like 6, so I quickly switched to reviews and found that the only thing every one agrees on was it's genetic. One review article said under Etiology and Prevention: Do not breed dogs with this condition. But they also agreed there was (in some or all cases) maybe something else? And then there were a lot of factions. It's an injury, but why do some dogs get injured and some don't? One review article listed the non-genetic correlations with OCD in this order: living in a multi-dog household (no, but Benway might count for running around); being housed on hard slippery surfaces (YES - we have 80-yr old hardwood and slick tile in 80% of our house); excess caloric intake and overweight (no, he is thin enough to feel ribs); diet high in calcium (don't know); diet high in protein (only for last 3-4 weeks). The last two are of course positively correlated with high caloric intake so that tangle is hard to separate.

 

So...

 

I feel guilty thinking back on the past months but my DH keeps pointing out that I was trying to be careful - more so than what most people have the common sense to do (or what I would have had the common sense to do without cautions I read here). He was/is an amazing biddable athlete, he has such joy and exuberance of movement, Benway and he love to chase each other so fast they stick to the walls, etc., etc., etc. Yet I really did make efforts to moderate his wonderful crazy and never jumped, weaved, or have extensive periods of fetch with him, even before I've been resting him for 6 weeks. I have the board to thank for that completely, so who knows, with his genetics maybe I let it not be as bad as it could have been, even if some of you more experienced types would do even better. All I DO know is that the next puppy will be that rare second child where the parent actually gets stricter rather than calmer! And that it underscores the helpful intent behind all those warnings to anyone on the board saying, "Please don't let your pup jump like that."

 

He will be fine, I know it now. And as my very sweet dad said, "Arthroscopic surgery?!? Well, that's, good, that's nothing. Football players have that on Monday and are on the field again on Sunday." That sounds ree-he-heally unwise but hey, he thinks in sports terms DH and I also talked about Odin as a dog, and how he is still the perfect dog to us. I want as quickly as possible to not just have this guy out of pain but growing correctly again, which is what the surgery can do. So not so bad.

 

PS I will be calling his breeder though, so they have this info for their program. They wanted to see him again after he grew anyway, so I'm sure they'd want to know this.

[Tassie]

Glad you're not feeling so down about the little man now. It is really good that you have a definitive diagnosis, and treatment plan, and that you're getting onto this while he's still young, so the rest of his growing can be done well. It's probably even good that you've had some practice in keeping him restricted in activity - I guess that will be part of the plan after the surgery.

 

Think how lucky Odin is that he has kind and caring owners who are able to find out what's wrong and get it fixed. It seems really huge to you know, but focus on all the fun you're going to have with him after his surgery and recovery.