The individual vs the entire breed (gene pool)

[1sheepdoggal]

A couple of the old timers I've talked to prefer a tough, hard headed dog that will stand up to training and "take a lickin' and keep on tickin'

 

I have some friends who own a large cattle operation in Utah and use dogs on a daily basis. We team penned together, and we were always arguing the attributes of the ACD verses the working border collie. One day I got fed up with his talking junk about BC's. His idea was that he needed a tougher, harder, dog, one that would as you said Laurie, take a lickin and keep on tickin. He claimed that BC's had no grip, they wouldnt head and heel, they werent tough enough and if they got kicked, they would quit working and head for the hills, he claimed that they were to soft, and only good for sheep dog trials and they would stick with his ACD's thankyouverymuch. So I took him and his wife over to a cattle dog trail in Wyoming to show him a few not so weak and soft cattle dogs of the BC variety. Introduced him to a few friends of mine that had dogs in the trial and that had far more knowledge and ability to convey the facts to him. He now employs 3 working BC's and though he still employs a few ACD's, ( more for sentimentle reasons Im sure) he has found that there can be a difference in trial dog, verses working bred cow dog, the type that may lack the style and finesse, but that can get the job done albiet in a rather rugged and callous way as opposed to what we are use to seeing on the trial feild and his opinions since then have now been swayed not by idle argument, but by the proof, that what is seen on the trial feild can be a differnt dog than what can been used on the ranch. Now Im not saying that trial dogs cant do the work, some can, some cant. Im saying that there can be a difference in breeding for trial dogs and breeding for working dogs.

[Shoofly]

As for what type of dogs we are producing...I see a lot of different types. I agree with Laurie to some extent, that many weekend warriors want a different type of dog than I do. I have friends here very much like that. I really wasn't so aware of this until one day last year several of them came to work on outruns. They wanted me to hold sheep for them, which I did. Some of these reasonably successful Open handlers had a hard time lifting and moving my sheep. These are sheep that see dogs every day, even VERY young pups. But I realized that these sheep are used to being moved by MY dogs every day, who are used to working cattle, and so, evidently, my sheep take a bit more convincing to move than their dogs were ready to do. And more convincing than their sheep at home need, as well. Apparently I have "trained" my sheep to expect a certain level of pushiness? in a dog. I also see dogs, who, to me, lack something when I do setout with range ewes. There are certainly some dogs who have difficulty lifting because they are too busy flanking off the pressure, or are so sticky that they just won't walk on in and get things moving. But, then again, I also have good friends who work thousands of head of cattle day in and day out who rely on their dogs. The dogs they are breeding are "tougher"? (not sure that's the right word) than some of the pure trial dogs I see in this about-as-fast-paced-and-urban-as-you-can-get area. So I think there's a wide range of dogs being bred out there, and a person can find the right kind to suit his/her needs if you look,A

 

I agree, there's a wide range of dogs out there and uses for the different types. A lot of people couldn't handle the "total package" kind of dogs - the ones with the talent, skill, power, and bull headedness it might take in certain jobs. And i do think many, many trial situations do reward a weaker, easier kind of dog, no doubt. It's enormously frustrating to many of us, believe me. I'm not saying my dogs aren't right there doing well at those trials, because they do okay. But a big part of me is searching for that holy grail of dogs, that thing that is so rare - the dog than can win on the saturday (regular Open) trials and then be the dog with the skill, stamina and power to pass the bigger test on the double lift day at the Finals or Meeker or Soldier Hollow or the Bluegrass or Kingston. I think of the "saturday" (regular) trials as handler trials since so many times it's about luck and good handling to go along with a "decent" dog. Sunday/DL trials are more about the dogs, and it's the sheep that sort the dogs. Anyway, i blame a "dumbing down" of trials for a lot of this. I know it's a necessity and it's better than nothing, but i'd love to see more "sheep sort the dogs out" kinds of trials and i put a lot of miles on my van trying to get to the ones i can. I might get my ass kicked but you can bet i'm hanging on the fence picking out the dogs i like, the ones i'll be watching years from now to see how they've done over time. That's the quality that i think is so precious, so rare, in this breed and so worthy of protecting.

 

Now, all that being said, i do see a niche for the easier, ready to go out of the box, don't need no fancy training or handling kinds of dogs. No doubt. I make the time for sheepdog trials and training and all that mess, but Joe Farmer needs a dog that can get his cows up without making a mess and running them to the neighbors fields first. I think the dog that is born ready to work, to work easily, to partner up and just "do the job" is a special commodity and that's hugely worth saving too. Maybe the true holy grail is the dog in both of these examples in one package!

 

ETA: "Total package" in the first line isn't exactly what i mean, but that's what i came up with to describe the "too much dog" kind of dog.

[Lenajo]

Denise I didn't realize we were related... Perhaps we should start a 12 step program for breeders like us:)

 

One thing I can say is that people who get pups from us know how much we value them. And it's got nothing to do with the check!

 

Well, to be specific, people have thought (and told me) I was stupid to have a six dog limit, and, if I insisted on it, I should be making space to breed more dogs by getting rid of older or not as useful dogs. But, I love them, so except on rare occassions I just let them live out their lives here if they're happy that way. And I wait until I have a spot for a new pup. I don't need to have "everything right now." My individual dogs themselves are the most important things to me. For the record, I have had more than six dogs on occasion but it's something I try to avoid because I feel I can't really give them the care I want to give them if I have more. They are my pets too, and live in my house. Also, as my long suffering friends can attest to, I cry and act like a total baby when I do breed a litter and have to place the pups ... agonize endlessly over the placements, etc. And I am totally consumed with them while they are here, and after. I really don't have the emotional energy to breed very much.

 

I don't feel guilt over the dogs I've bred as far as their contribution to the breed as a whole. Maybe they wouldn't be everybody's choice for best dog ever, but I consider myself lucky and fortunate in the quality of dogs I've produced. The dogs I run in trials are the dogs I happen to have. I don't go through a bunch of dogs. I can't do things that way. I'm not cut out for it. That's why I try so hard to make the right breeding decisions when I rarely breed.

[stockdogranch]

I think regionally, there is a bit of a difference in trials (sheep). From my understanding, the regular Saturday trials "in the east" are more of a handler trial, while out here "in the west," it is often the sheep who sort out the dogs. Least, that's what the sheep trial people tell me.

 

working bred cow dog, the type that may lack the style and finesse, but that can get the job done albiet in a rather rugged and callous way as opposed to what we are use to seeing on the trial feild

 

Ahhh, but the two are most definitely NOT mutually exclusive! I think that this is a misconception MANY folks have of cow-bred BCs, that they are tough and can get the work done, but lack style and finesse, that they work in a "rugged and callous way." This is simply not the case--maybe used to be, when the cattle-working folks had more of a "get ahead and get ahold" kind of mentality, but they began to see the light when we had folks who had come from sheep trialling move into trialling on cattle. Winning at a cattle trial is no longer done with a dog whose work is "rugged and callous." Trialling on cattle takes just as much finesse, although perhaps of a different sort (I guess I would call it finesse with push?, which, to me, is not unlike trialling on range ewes), than sheep trialling. And many of these trial dogs work large numbers of head day in and day out. Take the '08 Nursery Cattle dog winner, for example. He's a good friend of mine, has a HUGE cattle operation, and his dogs do the daily work and still win on the trial field. Robin--these are your holy grail of BCs.

 

A

[Debbie Meier]

I agree, there's a wide range of dogs out there and uses for the different types. A lot of people couldn't handle the "total package" kind of dogs - the ones with the talent, skill, power, and bull headedness it might take in certain jobs. And i do think many, many trial situations do reward a weaker, easier kind of dog, no doubt.

 

 

Amen

 

 

Our conversation at home yesterday was about the stubborn hard headed ones, do we breed it out or do we learn how to deal with it, we decided that tough livestock needs a stubborn hard headed dog, we gotta work with it and cull out the untrainable ones and the ones with little talent. I think many are breeding it out.

 

Deb

[stockdogranch]

we decided that tough livestock needs a stubborn hard headed dog

 

I totally disagree. The cow-bred dogs I am familiar with are working feedlots, pairs, what have you. Big operations. And yet biddability is a BIG part of the package. I want a dog tough enough to get whatever job done, on whatever stock I put in front of that dog. Yet, I do not want to fight with a dog. Life's too short to work with dogs like that, for me. And since we have dogs that are plenty tough and yet biddable--why?

 

Oh, another note: I am not sure if it's necessarily the breeding or the training of the dogs I see who have a hard time lifting range ewes at trials. Every time I see it, I wonder.

 

A

[Debbie Meier]

I think regionally, there is a bit of a difference in trials (sheep). From my understanding, the regular Saturday trials "in the east" are more of a handler trial, while out here "in the west," it is often the sheep who sort out the dogs. Least, that's what the sheep trial people tell me.

Ahhh, but the two are most definitely NOT mutually exclusive! I think that this is a misconception MANY folks have of cow-bred BCs, that they are tough and can get the work done, but lack style and finesse, that they work in a "rugged and callous way." This is simply not the case--maybe used to be, when the cattle-working folks had more of a "get ahead and get ahold" kind of mentality, but they began to see the light when we had folks who had come from sheep trialling move into trialling on cattle. Winning at a cattle trial is no longer done with a dog whose work is "rugged and callous." Trialling on cattle takes just as much finesse, although perhaps of a different sort (I guess I would call it finesse with push?, which, to me, is not unlike trialling on range ewes), than sheep trialling. And many of these trial dogs work large numbers of head day in and day out. Take the '08 Nursery Cattle dog winner, for example. He's a good friend of mine, has a HUGE cattle operation, and his dogs do the daily work and still win on the trial field. Robin--these are your holy grail of BCs.

 

A

 

At the Nebraska State Fair we had cattle that hunted dogs, they would run head down on the attack as soon as the dog released or did not increase pressure on initial contact. It took a strong, tough dog with finesse to get these cattle to cooperate, if the dog showed the least amount of weakness the cows would go on offense and lead an attack, if the dog was too aggressive and did not reward a cow for yeilding the cows would go on defense and be impossible to move. Thank god we ran open, the Novice and Pro-novice ran first, alot of dogs were served up and basically sacraficial lambs in the rebreaking process, I've never seen so many tough lame dogs at the end of runs, by the time Wayne was up you may have gotten lucky and drew a set that were properly retuned. Wayne had his hands full with Jake, Jake eyed up the problem cows and wanted to take them to task, no back down in the boy, there were some heart stopping moments. In reality the only dogs there were safe were the ones that were soft and wanted out of there. Made me realize that we need more real life big operation cattle work so that Jake can learn when to amp up and when to amp down.

 

Deb

[laurie etc]

I agree, there's a wide range of dogs out there and uses for the different types. A lot of people couldn't handle the "total package" kind of dogs - the ones with the talent, skill, power, and bull headedness it might take in certain jobs. ... Maybe the true holy grail is the dog in both of these examples in one package!

 

I agree.

 

Sue R relayed about her "nicely bred, flashy, flank off of the pressure" dog not being able to get the job done on runaway cattle, and her gritty "ugly" dog jumping in and accomplishing it. I think in a farming situation, Joe Farmer is gonna appreciate dog # 2,and feel like taking dog # 1 out behind the barn. This is why it's important for modern breeders to keep in mind that it's the "whole package" that needs to be kept alive, not just the "trial package".

 

It's worrisome to me that Melanie noted how many (75%?) of the dogs in her collection of pedigrees (mostly collected at prominent Trials) were related by at least one grandparent. Are modern breeders limiting the gene pool too much by only breeding top trial dogs or closely related dogs to other top trial dogs? How many ABCA Border Collies today are bred for Trialing vs Farm Work vs Sport vs "Pets" ? It would be interesting to know the statistics...

 

Laurie

[Debbie Meier]

I totally disagree. The cow-bred dogs I am familiar with are working feedlots, pairs, what have you. Big operations. And yet biddability is a BIG part of the package. I want a dog tough enough to get whatever job done, on whatever stock I put in front of that dog. Yet, I do not want to fight with a dog. Life's too short to work with dogs like that, for me. And since we have dogs that are plenty tough and yet biddable--why?

 

Oh, another note: I am not sure if it's necessarily the breeding or the training of the dogs I see who have a hard time lifting range ewes at trials. Every time I see it, I wonder.

 

A

 

I'm not meaning the extream, a dog that is untrainable, or one that will stay in there and not give up regardless risking life or limb. Not one that will stay in there until death, like some that are really hard and stubborn will do. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we need some stubbornness and some hardheadness, but not to the point that it impedes training, though depending on what you are used to working with a little bit of stubborness to one may seem untrainable to another person. I agree that life is to short to deal with a dog that fights you all the time, there are different ideas of fight, there are dogs that refuse to give themselves to you, there are dogs that will fight giving themselves to you but once they do they give you their all, then there are dogs that have no fight at all.

 

Deb

[1sheepdoggal]

I think regionally, there is a bit of a difference in trials (sheep). From my understanding, the regular Saturday trials "in the east" are more of a handler trial, while out here "in the west," it is often the sheep who sort out the dogs. Least, that's what the sheep trial people tell me.

Ahhh, but the two are most definitely NOT mutually exclusive! I think that this is a misconception MANY folks have of cow-bred BCs, that they are tough and can get the work done, but lack style and finesse, that they work in a "rugged and callous way." This is simply not the case--maybe used to be, when the cattle-working folks had more of a "get ahead and get ahold" kind of mentality, but they began to see the light when we had folks who had come from sheep trialling move into trialling on cattle. Winning at a cattle trial is no longer done with a dog whose work is "rugged and callous." Trialling on cattle takes just as much finesse, although perhaps of a different sort (I guess I would call it finesse with push?, which, to me, is not unlike trialling on range ewes), than sheep trialling. And many of these trial dogs work large numbers of head day in and day out. Take the '08 Nursery Cattle dog winner, for example. He's a good friend of mine, has a HUGE cattle operation, and his dogs do the daily work and still win on the trial field. Robin--these are your holy grail of BCs.

 

A

 

My, things are a changin fast, its only been about 6 years since I attended any cattle dog trials, guess its time to hit a few more and see what Ive been missing. The last few I watched, the work was still pretty raw. Kinda turned me off to tell the truth. I had thought at one time that Id like to try doing a little cattle work with some of my dogs, turned out, they were the soft sheep trialing variety, and needless to say, we didnt get far.

[Shoofly]

I think regionally, there is a bit of a difference in trials (sheep). From my understanding, the regular Saturday trials "in the east" are more of a handler trial, while out here "in the west," it is often the sheep who sort out the dogs. Least, that's what the sheep trial people tell me.

 

 

 

Ahhh, but the two are most definitely NOT mutually exclusive! I think that this is a misconception MANY folks have of cow-bred BCs, that they are tough and can get the work done, but lack style and finesse, that they work in a "rugged and callous way." This is simply not the case--maybe used to be, when the cattle-working folks had more of a "get ahead and get ahold" kind of mentality, but they began to see the light when we had folks who had come from sheep trialling move into trialling on cattle. Winning at a cattle trial is no longer done with a dog whose work is "rugged and callous." Trialling on cattle takes just as much finesse, although perhaps of a different sort (I guess I would call it finesse with push?, which, to me, is not unlike trialling on range ewes), than sheep trialling. And many of these trial dogs work large numbers of head day in and day out. Take the '08 Nursery Cattle dog winner, for example. He's a good friend of mine, has a HUGE cattle operation, and his dogs do the daily work and still win on the trial field. Robin--these are your holy grail of BCs.

 

A

 

Umm, just to be clear, i'm not the one that said that about "working bred cow dog, the type that may lack the style and finesse, but that can get the job done albiet in a rather rugged and callous way as opposed to what we are use to seeing on the trial feild". I know better.

 

As to the training vs nature question about the lifts you've seen, i bet it's a some of both, as well as a bit of experience thrown in. I've always heard that dogs imported here from overseas can appear quite a lot weaker than they are for a while, until they get used to the heavier stock we tend to have. Yet another set of factors to throw into the "total package" equation.

[Lenajo]

In regards to the "rescue dogs taking homes from well bred working dogs" thread.

 

FIRST: Nobody here believes a Rescue dog does not *deserve* a home. All of us I daresay, have rescued, or helped with rescues at one point or another. Many of do much more than occassionally.

 

Regardless of that belief, it is *reality* that the number of homes for dogs is limited. There are simply too many dogs, both Border Collie and many others pure and mixed, needing homes.

 

The only limitation of breeding that is happening right now is with responsible breeders. Breeders like Denise, Anna, myself, etc are limiting our litters to when we have personal need of another dog, and selling the other pups to only carefully selected homes that are either speutering, or are as careful with breeding as we are.

 

Yet the puppy mills - from the backyard breeders, to random web sellers, to the candy colored 10 litters a year sport breeders - pump them out like mad.

 

It's a vicious cycle. The more they breed, the more need to be rescued, the less homes there are, and the harder it is for good breeders to place pups that they have in surplus to what they themselves need from the litter.

 

Robin, or at least I think it was her (long threads this weekend!) said the working breeders need to go ahead and take those homes and get our good, stable, healthy dogs in those homes and give the breed a good representation that those dogs can offer.

 

I agree, but I also know that when I do it, that's 2, 4, 6...more dogs that will die in the shelter because there is no home available. I ethically can't do it...I emotionally can't do it. Its bad enough when it's because I produced a wanted, loved and needed litter to get 1 or 2 pups for *me* and I know that extra pups are doing it.

 

The Catch 22 of Breeding. Those that care and should be breeding aren't (at least not much) because of the problems created by those that don't.

 

Kryasmom commented that working pups should go to working homes - otherwise what was the point of the litter beyond reproduction? Well, for me the point of a litter is to continue my line, for *me*. My requirements for the pups I don't want myself are that they are permanently, lovingly, appropriately homed with people who they adore as much as they adore them!

 

Frankly that doesn't happen in enough working homes. Experience has sadly taught me that many working homes, in particular trialers, go through dogs like used tissue. While that may make a stronger breed, this "culling", it is not an acceptable life for one of my "babies".

 

Catch 22b of Breeding - Those that care too much about what happens to their pups tend to prefer pet oriented homes. They make little impact on the overall genepool because their good dogs tend to either be limited in their breeding or in the case of the pets - not bred at all.

 

Denise commented

I don't really know about the sport dogs. I hear they are too this or that but I really don't know. Could this be happening in our breed? That to keep the breed stable, it needs to be bred to keep all the parts together in the right combinations, as it was originally bred?

 

They are more than "too" this or that, they are usually nightmares imo. The popular sport/conformation cross, or sport/working cross - supposably producing the "versatile" dog - results in either immediately loss of drive or loss of focus. So you either get hell on wheels with no brain, or brain but no appropriate "go".

 

Catch 22c - The more of the bad Border Collies bred and homed, the more their behavior becomes accepted as "normal". Those "nightmares" to us are "normal" to sport people already.

 

As Melanie noted, the difference between my working bred dogs and the sport breds at Agility trials or training is focus and self control. Also, coming from a stockdog background I don't feel the rabid need a lot of these people seem to to have a dog doing "adult" work the moment whatever organization they favor says its "ok" to enter events. Talk about cultural differences! A lot of those dogs wouldn't be nearly so bad if they were raised with balance and common sense.

 

Robin and others have commented that converts are the future of our dogs. That worries me, because many of the converts coming in are not just "farming-newbies" but completely different cultural worlds regarding animals. I've been the converter of a number of pet BC owners to trialing/herding, and while some really offer us valuable diversity, others I wish I'd never met in the first place. They bring the ACK attitudes about health testing and breeding, the either don't want too/or can't understand real stockmanship, and those that even do end up farming on a hobby scale are extremely succeptible to animal rights agendas because they simply don't have the background and farming taught commen sense to deflect it. And heaven help us all if they have money.

 

Try considering sedatives for sheep that are to be sheared, lidocaine assisted banding of tails and castration, stalling sheep in the barn in case it rains on a 70F day...etc etc.

 

It sounds funny, but it's really not. Remember this is what the public and AR sees as "humane" if you must keep animals. The more of these converts acting like this the worse it is for the "normal" shepherd(ess).

 

So yes, lets convert, but lets not consider it the savior of our breed. We don't want people that change everything, we want people who support and compliment what is already good.

 

As Julie noted,

I think it's because in our largely non-agrarian society most people (JQ Public) don't even recognize the border collie's origins as a stock dog.

And it's getting worse. I had to tell my neighbor why his Lab liked to get in our lake a while back. He honestly, had no idea that labs were water retrieving hunting dogs. And he is not alone

 

--Why train or even expose a pet owned Border Collie to sheepherding?

 

First off it's great exercise for both dog and human. It gives these dogs, in particular a proper direction for their urges. And imo helps owners to get a backbone about *not* allowing prey/misplaced herding in the wrong places. Both species get training about what is, and what it not, appropriate

 

It also promotes self control in a way they sport training cannot - basically you have the best reward on the planet for these dogs when they use self control and operate as a team with their handler.

"Training in Drive" if you will - for better recalls, better stops...all of which carry over beautifully to pet life.

 

It's safe exercise. I strongly encourage it to sport intended Border Collie puppies and adolescents The dog gets mental exercise, training in drive, but no joint stress from early jump training, excessive retrieving, repetitive contact work. If they find they like that better than sports - that's ok too!

 

It discourages obsessions. Since the dog has a safe, normal prey drive outlet and is *tired* mentally he is less likely to come up with alterantive behaviors to meet his needs.

 

None of this requires any advanced level of training or tolerance of any form of sheep abuse as "wooly toys". If advancement becomes a possibility and a desire - they we go on. If it is not, then the person and the dog got a broadening of their life and an education about limits. Er...maybe you'd like to add another dog to your home that can do herding? Two dogs are twice the fun etc etc.

 

Back to that convert thing...yes herding lessons for novice/hobby people with pets dogs opens doors of education in rural life. I can't tell you how many seminars and demos have drifted into "how can you eat what you raise?". You talk about humane stockmanship, why farm raised is better than feedlot and typical grocery store products, about using dogs to increase the quality of the meat through more humanely and naturally managing the livestock...

 

Converts are good - there are some great ones on this Board. But they cannot stand alone. We need good breeders, good educators, and yes, good rescuers.

 

Most of all we need good, open discussion. Like these Boards. Hats off to Eileen and the others who manage them so that remains.

[Shoofly]

I've heard a number of comments from old-timers and experienced sheepdog people from both sides of the pond that so many of the dogs winning trials nowadays are the "easy", softer dogs who tend to train up quickly and want to stay off pressure. Makes them easier to train for the "weekend warriors", and quicker to get on the trial field, but they may not possess "the whole package" for hard ranch/hill work. A couple of the old timers I've talked to prefer a tough, hard headed dog that will stand up to training and "take a lickin' and keep on tickin'". So are the "weekend warriors" changing the breed from its original purpose, too?

 

I think this is an argument that's been going on as long as sheepdog trials. I know i've read in some realllllllly old books the same argument, surrounding the Gilchrist Spot dogs and Wiston Cap, at least (those are 2 i remember anyway). I wonder if the fact that it's an argument that is still being made, for so many years, doesn't mean it's one that won't go one way or the other? You'd think time would have settled it. I'd guess, as long as there are different handlers and trainers with different styles and tastes in dogs, and different types of stock and farms and jobs, that we'll continue to see a range in working dogs. That's a good thing.

 

Where is Becca when i need her? She's the one that can spit out this historical stuff like she's listing her kids' names. Me, i'm the one with swiss cheese memory...

[stockdogranch]

Oh, I knew that wasn't you, Robin. I know you know better.

 

Deb--I think we may be looking at the words "stubbornness" and "hard headed" differently. To me, stubborn and hard-headed are in relation to me, and how willing they are to work with me. Toughness, to me, is how the dog relates to the stock. I, too, want a dog who's tough, but not stupid in the face of difficult stock.

 

And Darci--there are certainly still some out there cattle trialling who are "raw," but they sure aren't the ones who are winning!

 

A

[PSmitty]

Thank you for that thoughtful post, Wendy.

[Shoofly]

Oh, I knew that wasn't you, Robin. I know you know better.

 

Deb--I think we may be looking at the words "stubbornness" and "hard headed" differently. To me, stubborn and hard-headed are in relation to me, and how willing they are to work with me. Toughness, to me, is how the dog relates to the stock. I, too, want a dog who's tough, but not stupid in the face of difficult stock.

 

And Darci--there are certainly still some out there cattle trialling who are "raw," but they sure aren't the ones who are winning!

 

A

 

I kinda figured you did but wanted to make sure others did too.

 

Now, send me one of those dogs we're talking about!

[stockdogranch]

Now, send me one of those dogs we're talking about!

 

There should be some new ones on the ground in January!

 

A

[Shoofly]

Robin, or at least I think it was her (long threads this weekend!) said the working breeders need to go ahead and take those homes and get our good, stable, healthy dogs in those homes and give the breed a good representation that those dogs can offer.

 

Uh, not exactly. I'd let it go but i think i did a good enough job pissing people off this weekend without adding that to my list. Put the way you've put it, it implies i think on an individual level i think "our dogs" are somehow better than rescues, etc., i.e. more stable, healthy etc. I don't necessarily think that's true or not true, especially on an individual dog basis. I do believe that by supporting rescue, and getting pups from rescue, good breeders of border collies are slighted. I believe to support the breed you have to support good breeders, both conceptually and financially.

 

Robin and others have commented that converts are the future of our dogs. That worries me, because many of the converts coming in are

 

No, that's way more sweeping of a generalization than i did or would make, way way way more. Converts are a good thing but no, i don't think i'd lay the future of the breed at their feet. Nope.

[Debbie Meier]

Oh, I knew that wasn't you, Robin. I know you know better.

 

Deb--I think we may be looking at the words "stubbornness" and "hard headed" differently. To me, stubborn and hard-headed are in relation to me, and how willing they are to work with me. Toughness, to me, is how the dog relates to the stock. I, too, want a dog who's tough, but not stupid in the face of difficult stock.

 

And Darci--there are certainly still some out there cattle trialling who are "raw," but they sure aren't the ones who are winning!

 

A

 

 

I think your right, about looking at it differently in the end, I guess I was looking at it in the beginning, some will cull a dog early on that exhibits stubborness and hard headedness toward the handler, I guess I'm not worring about it as long as I can redirect it and it gives that behaivor up. The dog that worries me is the one that does not exhibit it at all initially. Kinda like a dog that bites, some want nothing to do with it, I don't mind a dog that bites, as long as he figures out that it better not be directed at me. The dog that will not bite regardless of the situation or the dog that bites regardless of the situation can equally be a problem when you selecting for the future.

 

Deb

[DeltaBluez Tess]

>>> Trialling on cattle takes just as much finesse, although perhaps of a different sort (I guess I would call it finesse with push?, which, to me, is not unlike trialling on range ewes), than sheep trialling<<<

 

 

Anna will remember when I first did a USBCHA cowdog trial. It was a few years ago at Nine Mile. I was in Rancher, which is a class lower than Open. I was running my PN sheepdog. We both got a lesson on cows a week prior. Talk about the blind leading the blind!! Thank God, I knew how to ride a horse since this event requires you to be on horseback.

 

Ron (one of my best friends) was taping my run on the second day. I did *really well* on the first day....let's say, we got noticed. . He was standing next to a bunch of people who came to see this *sheepdog person with their sheepdog* on Sunday's run. We placed 2nd I think and got Reserve Champion or something like that (I don't remember but we made our entry fee back!!) . My dog was heading and heeling and having no issues working the cattle. I was his handicap.

 

Ron told these people l that this was my first cowdog trial as well as the dog. They told them they were expecting me to fail since I had a sheepdog. By the end of the run, he said they were impressed with a S-H-E-E-P-D-O-G who could work cows. Apparently the dog made quite an impression. I ran my run like I run on sheep, with finesse and calmness. (I did hyper ventilate a few times!!)

 

Who was that dog? His name is Tait and he is one of the top cattledogs in the US now. Ron and I co-own him now and Ron runs him on the cattledog trials. This yr at the USBCHA Cowdog Finals, he got 10th overall, High combined over the two days, 2nd on the first day and third on the second day. No one makes fun of this sheepdog anymore.

 

Tait doesn't have a lot of finesse so the handler has to help with that but he has heck of a push!! His sire was Cub (Scott Glen) who placed 3rd at the Sheepdog finals.

 

And Anna's dog has nice finesse and some damm good push!! Besides, she didn't laugh at me and made me feel at home!! I have a blast with her at trials and my sides hurt from laughing so much with her.

 

Diane~

[juliepoudrier]

Several perhaps disconnected thoughts here in response to some of the recent comments:

I think we've seen enough of the dogs who have done well at the cattle finals also to do well at the sheep finals, or to just perform well consistently in both venues, not to make generalizations about cattle dogs vs. sheepdogs.

 

Like Anna, I want a dog who's willing to work with me. I don't want a dog I have to beat into submission. When I think of a dog taking a licking and keeping on ticking, I think of a dog who keeps working despite rough conditions, difficult stock, whatever, and that's not the same as a hard-headed dog who requires a certain amount of "toughness" from the trainer to be made into a useful dog. I don't want a dog whose plan A is always to grab something (no matter what the species), but I also want a dog who is quite willing to grab something in defense or to get it to move when challenged.

 

One thing I learned when I first started working cattle, which I do infrequently since I don't have any of my own, is that patience works there as well as it does on sheep. Yep, all those pictures of dogs biting cattle are cool, but generally if the dog knows when to put pressure on and when to release and give the stock time to think, it will be successful (with less stress all around), and that works across species.

 

I think we see enough east coast dogs going west and doing well and vice versa to say that we are not wholesale breeding Saturday dogs. It really bothers me when the whole "our way is a better test than your way" discussions come up because I think such discussions ignore the reality of the extremely varied farm operations across this country. No doubt all of us find our dogs useful for our own situations or we wouldn't have the dogs in the first place. Sheep or cattle that do well in one part of the U.S. don't necessarily do well in another, and so we need dogs that are suited to work our livestock in our operations. That's not to say that we should accept inferior dogs, or dogs lacking the whole package, but as Robin pointed out, Joe Farmer isn't going to be terribly happy with a dog that takes tons of training to learn its job, so we do need to keep the "natural work" in the breed as well. And the differences in need and approach also vary from here to the UK. I find it interesting that, for example, on the workingsheepdog list most of the people, generally folks posting from the UK, starting young dogs advocate using light stock. When I start a young dog, the last thing I want is light stock. I imagine the differences are once again because the reality of farming operations here is different than it is overseas (duh!), and so they are also taking different approaches and using dogs that may not be quite the same as many of the dogs we have here. I think that variety is good, because I think it meets the requirements set forth in Denise's bull's eye analogy: one person's red dog may well be another's orange (or maybe even yellow) dog, but the fact that those dogs all are a complete package for the use at hand keeps the genetics as a whole at a higher level.

 

If I had a concern about the breeding of "less than the whole package dogs" I would lay the blame at the feet of novice handlers/hobby folk who do well in the novice classes and use that as an excuse to breed. It's something that comes up on occasion, but while we're talking about individuals vs. the entire breed it's a good time to bring it up again. In my mind, these folks are not doing any favors to the breed and are right up there with folks who breed willy nilly for other things. A dog who cleans up in novice-novice, and handlers who never advance beyond pro-novice (East Coast version) couldn't possibly even begin to understand what "the whole package" entails. I'm sure that comment will upset some, but it's a truth that doesn't come up often enough.

 

J.

[Kyrasmom]

Actually Lenajo, I said that for a breeding to be considered successful or useful some of the pups had to go to working homes .. not all. In fact I further said that working pups would be good ambassadors for the breed in pet homes. If that working home is yours, then all the better. But to put a litter on the ground and sell it all for pet/sport/whatever would seem redundant. That's what I said/meant/mean. And kudos for wanting your pups in great homes by the way!

 

Just to clarify...

 

Maria

[Smokjbc]

I totally disagree. The cow-bred dogs I am familiar with are working feedlots, pairs, what have you. Big operations. And yet biddability is a BIG part of the package. I want a dog tough enough to get whatever job done, on whatever stock I put in front of that dog. Yet, I do not want to fight with a dog. Life's too short to work with dogs like that, for me. And since we have dogs that are plenty tough and yet biddable--why?

 

Oh, another note: I am not sure if it's necessarily the breeding or the training of the dogs I see who have a hard time lifting range ewes at trials. Every time I see it, I wonder.

 

A

 

I agree with Anna- my best (and only true) cow dog was "like butter" to be around- not hyper, not stubborn, very "omega" type dog, never picked fights or even did much off of stock. She could have been placed in any home as a pup and an idiot could have done nothing with her and she would have still been an outstanding house dog. But put a cow in front of her, and she'd turn into a hard nose hitting, very strong to the head cow dog. She even had this little "roar" she did, my dog that never barked, right before she turned a cow. And she ALWAYS stopped or turned them. On the rare occasion they ran over her, she got up mad and would make...them...pay. This same dog might pee on herself if you surprised her with a loud verbal correction off of stock. She did have very strong opinions about how she wanted to work, but since she was mostly right and had innate stock sense- it worked out fine.

 

Some of those dogs have big motors- but aren't necessarily stubborn- they just need to work more than a handful of cows at a time . There is a subset of cow dog people that do believe though in breeding harder to train dogs and using different methods (i.e hard physical corrections and e-collars) that I've seen first hand but I do not believe them to be the majority and the breeds they use are not usually Border Collies.

[Carson Crazies]

If I had a concern about the breeding of "less than the whole package dogs" I would lay the blame at the feet of novice handlers/hobby folk who do well in the novice classes and use that as an excuse to breed.

 

I would agree that a fair amout of this happens. And I AM a novice - and I couldn't possibly begin to make breeding choices that not only would impact my individual dogs like that but the breed as a larger picture. Not only do I think it's not typical to understand the whole picture early on as a novice, but one's understandings and what they like/need in a dog often (as I've heard many times, and as I'm seeing myself) have a tendency to change as one progresses. Shoot, what I like in a dog has changed recently WITH the dog! Imagine what the story will be years from now.

 

And then, a thought or two on "converts". I come from what isn't your typical "convert" type of background, but it still sort of qualifies I think. I started out with a randomly bred accidently border collie mix puppy. I knew NOTHING about border collies, other than something vague about "herding".

 

One day, one moment, one breath with a board member here and her working dogs and I was hooked. I knew at that exact moment - the moment when she sent her dog for the sheep - that I wanted all of that to be part of my life. I'm not talking just a part of my life on weekends, I'm talking sell the house, buy myself a farm, and make it my LIFE. Anyway, I went on to take in a rescue dog that just happened to be working bred. From there it was a working bred puppy, and then another one. I'm trying to soak up as much as the ones more experienced than I will let me. I'm working on the farm, part, too.

 

Am I running around breeding my dogs? No. Am I buying working bred pups from good breeders and giving them forever homes? You betcha. Like many here I do have a limit to the number of dogs I can keep, and I'd better do my part to choose good dogs that will suit me, 'cuz I get attached to the beasties. Will I do my best to help the breeders of my pups ascertain how their breeding program is going? I will, to the best of my ability. Will I give myself the lifestyle I'm after? Yep. I want to be able to walk out my back door and see my own sheep & cattle. Even now my SO is starting to make plans to take one of the lambs that I sold him to put in our freezers. He'd never used a dog for his stock until recently. A convert of another kind - also starting from the ground up from a dog standpoint.

 

I think in today's less than agrarian type of lifestyle we'd better all HOPE there's some converts that pick up the important lessons and carry them on. I'm not just talking about the dogs, but the stock, and the lifestyle as well.

[Shoofly]

It's always interesting to me to see how different dogs react to different livestock. Dogs that you think would never be good on cows turn out to be great sometimes. I had a tough male dog that did way too much biting on sheep. I got some goats and he was perfect, never laid a tooth on them. Just goes to show you really never know until you put the rubber to the road, you know?

 

I'm also fascinated at how different stock reacts to different dogs - for example the dogs you just know are weak and have seen run off by sheep, then go out and do great on big tough range ewes or cows. Or the big powerful dog that livestock won't turn around and walk away from. All the variables that go into this whole thing just floor me.