The individual vs the entire breed (gene pool)

[Sue R]

With the current litter registration, versus individual puppy registration, I would think it would make data compilation much easier. Pups that were not registered would not slip through the cracks, and all registered litters should be accounted for.

[Debbie Meier]

I was just over at the USBCHA Site, they have a list of the Finals dogs with their sires/dams and breeders and registry for each entry, it's an interesting read.

 

Deb

[Shoofly]

Hey Karen - I'm sorry but i don't really know the answer to how the database could be queried. I haven't had my hands on it myself, or i expect i could figure something out. It would certainly be interesting to answer some of these questions!

[Ross Bash]

While checking something else via Google, I ran across a link to this particular thread. In the course of reading through it, there were two acronyms to which reference was made with which I am unfamiliar. Although the thread is now some four years old, I'm hoping someone might respond as to what the two acronyms stand for (I searched for them first on Google, but only found things using the same acronyms rather than what they stood for). The two acronyms are "IBC" (a registry of some sort) and "BYBers" (which I assume does not refer to Border Collies walking around carrying brown paper bags...). Thanks to any and all who respond. Ross Bash

[Ross Bash]

Just a followup to the question I posed in my previous post. Found another reference to "BYB" in another thread and figured out from the context that it (probably) means "Back Yard Bred." I'm still interested though in learning what "IBC" stands for. Ross Bash

[Ross Bash]

I have no answers. Just maybe a few observations. And I'm not even sure now if this response belongs on this thread or on the other one. But here it is. First, if everyone is not clear on my position: I train dogs to work stock. I breed occasionally, based on what I think and hope are sound decisions regarding working ability (temperament and soundness are part of that package to me). I do OFA and CEA on everyone before breeding. I try to place my dogs in working homes, which I define as homes that will at the very least use the dog for "hobby herding." If one of my pups does end up in a sports/pet home, I have a "non-AKC" contract (meaning, don't dual register), and, in the future, will use the N/B status for those dogs as well. Even though I am very confident in the working ability of any pups I breed, I am kind of a control freak, and don't trust others (without a fairly serious working background) to make good breeding decisions with those pups. I don't want my good pups bred to some POS, producing so-so dogs, and have that reflect back on my breeding. Anyway, I will take back (or buy back if necessary, if the dog has had some training) any pup of mine, no matter how much I really don't have room for it because I know I can put a few months' training on it and sell it to a rancher somewhere who needs a dog to work stock.

 

Ok, so my observations: This morning I had a gal and her husband bring 2 pups for evaluation ("instinct testing") on stock. The pups are almost 5 months old, one female, the other male. Littermates. They've had them a month. Both pups were fairly cute little slick-coated things. Both struck me as a bit more shy than I would like in pups that age; the female especially was pretty hang-back, with a not-go-near-the-new-person sort of attitude (and most dogs, even those with issues, usually find me pretty non-threatening). So I take the pups, one at a time, in on my 3 "school sheep." They both showed some interest in working, although the female was a bit more mature than the male (to be expected). But while they showed some interest in the stock, and kind of went round them, something was just a bit "off." These people will probably come for some lessons with these pups, and the pups will probably be trainable to some level. They want them to eventually work cattle--not sure that will happen.

 

So, what does this all have to do with this discussion? These pups are not well bred, and it shows in both their temperaments and in their work. Sure, they are still recognizable as "border collies," as they had some interest in stock, and are black and white, and so on, but several parts of the package are missing, big time. They bought these pups from someone with a slick website from TENNESSEE (red flags, anyone?), and they said they had papers, but they "only show the mother and father." No pedigree any farther back. They are IBC registered. 'Nuf said?

 

I had just been reading this thread before I went outside to meet with these folks, so it was all kind of stewing around in my brain. Where do you draw the line? At what point is a poorly-bred (as in, not bred for a high level of working ability) border collie no longer a border collie? I think I have to come down on this one fairly hard, as others have: the very minute you breed for anything other than a high level of stockworking ability. Now, these pups I'm sure have working dogs in their ancestry. And they're nice enough dogs. But these pups were not bred carefully, and to me, it was very evident in the 2 hours I spent with these folks. But, to Jane or John Q., they look like perfect little examples of border collies. To even someone with a bit of background in working BCs (like the average "weekend warrior" I see out here, who dabbles in Pro-Novice or whatever), they might even look OK. But to someone used to working with "the real thing," there is no comparison.

 

How does this affect the breed as a whole? I think as long as we have people breeding for useful stockdogs, we are doing what we can to keep the breed as it has been, as it should be. But I also agree that we're being "outnumbered" by the conformation breeders, and the sport breeders, and the BYBs, as well as the just plain crappy breeders who breed working dogs with little or no real thought behind it.

 

What to do about that? As I said, I have no real answers. I could breed lots more often, still carefully, still producing good solid working dogs, and hope to try to "meet their numbers" with "ours." But, of course, I can't do that, as that would just make me one of those people who produces way too many dogs, when are are already too many out there. I guess all I can do is to keep on truckin', breeding occasionally, and educating folks as much as possible. I did, BTW, tell the nice people this morning, in no uncertain terms, what exactly they had bought. Nicely, but I was very clear.

 

Enough rambling for now,

 

A

[Debbie Meier]

I believe the IBC is refering to American International Border Collie Assoc, but I may be mistaken. Here is a link that lays out the different american registries, scroll down to near the bottom of the page: http://www.gis.net/~shepdog/BC_Museum/Permanent/BCHistoryAmerica/BC_HistoryAmerica.html

[Ross Bash]

Hi --

I found the particular post (from stockdogranch; sorry for not referring to the poster by actual name, but it's not indicated) that had the reference to "IBC" about which I inquired in an earlier post. I think I also goofed in how to direct a reply to that particular post by hitting the "quote" button on it (I'm not much of a blogger). All that said by way of pretext, I'm hoping that stockdogranch might happen to read this and respond to my inquiry.

 

Also, while I'm re-raising that question by this post, what led me to this thread in my Google search was trying to find out more about Jim Varnon. I was considering buying a book that he wrote entitled "Because of Eve." It's kind of expensive with no reviews about it on Amazon (and apparently no reviews of it findable on Google), so I wanted some advice on whether it was worth the price.

 

Thanks, again, to any and all who respond.

Ross Bash

[Ross Bash]

Thanks, Debbie. I'll check out the link.

 

I also like the quote at the end of your reply -- it brought to mind some really wonderful teachers I've had who had the enduring patience to keep "working" with me; I can only hope that they also had the sense that it equated to the good ones they never had the opportunity to "work" with...

 

Enjoy the day!

Ross Bash

[Debbie Meier]

you posted Anna's quote while I was posting, refering to the new ibc registry then it should be this one http://internationalbordercollieassociation.com/

[Sue R]

AIBC was (as mentioned) the American International Border Collie Association and one of the two registries (the other being NASDS or North American Sheep Dog Society) that were active in the USA in prior years. Neither seem to be active currently and the ABCA is the only registry that most serious working dog people utilize.

 

What Anna referred to is something called IBCA or International Border Collie Association which is a "registry" established by an individual who was disbarred from ABCA for fraudulent registration practices. It is primarily a venue for her and her associates, and puppy purchasers, to "register" their dogs. I would not be surprised if other breeders of similar ethics or who are ignorant might not use this "registry" for the poor pups they produce. I use the words "register" and "registry" because this is not set up for any other purpose other than to make pups "more valuable" (or let people pay more for them) by giving them "papers".

 

I don't know anything really about Jim Varnon but I have heard people praise the book, "Because of Eve". Less expensive non-fiction books about working Border Collies are available - Donald McCaig's "Eminent Dogs, Dangerous Men" is wonderful. So is his anecdotal "A Good Dog". His "The Dog Wars" is also instructive with good anecdotal stories. Eric Halsell's "Sheepdogs, My Faithful Friends" is also a great read (the beginning is more descriptive and the latter parts more about certain handlers, dogs, bloodlines, etc., but it is all excellent).

[Ross Bash]

Debbie -- Thanks, again. And you actually gave me a "two-fer" reply -- I'll also check out the second link you provided and I now also know that "Anna" goes with "stockdogranch," so I can be more courteous to her by using her actual name if I ever have occasion again to respond to one of her posts. My apologies though to both of you in posting her quote when all I was trying to do was simply direct my question to her by reference to her post (this blogging business can get really complicated if you're a novice, huh?). Anyhow, thanks for taking the time to respond. Ross Bash

[Eileen Stein]

Anyone who says "Nuf said?" after referring to "IBC" is talking about the IBCA, which is not a well-regarded registry among knowledgeable border collie folks.

 

The late Jim Varnon was a colorful Texas handler who made his mark on sheepdog trialing in the 1970s and 1980s, although he was a passionate and controversial poster on working sheepdog internet forums right up until his death in 2004. Although there are some good training tips in it, Because of Eve reflects a past era and would probably be of more interest today as a historical document than as a training guide.

[Pam Wolf]

Back to the original topic, I've had this discussion lately with a good friend. Our consensus was the NEED for a solid working test for breeding stock-BUT we recognize the many problems in a country this large.

 

As an alternative, papers marked differently for dogs bred of different purposes.

 

category A: bred for working trials\farm or ranch work only (yes not all farm/ranch dogs work well-FTM not all trial dogs can do farm/ranch work well either)

 

Category B: from parents used (even once) for sports other than strictly working. This means if a dog is used for competition in any sport other than working stock trials at a competative level (outside the kids using it in 4H or such) then the dog is marked as a B dog. Yes, this is a sticky wicket too. But as a generality, most of these dogs would be 'registered' in one way or another with a titling organization in order to recieve awards for such competiton.

 

Category C-unknown. Parents do not work and working ability is unknown.

 

Pups from parents from mixed categories would be denoted the non working category of the non working parent (even if parent was B who also did trials.)

 

If a pup out of category A parents is sold to a sport home, then pups out of that dog would be category B etc.

 

Conversly, a pup out of B or C who did well on a farm/ranch or in trials could produce pups in the A category. This might involve some sort of working test as a necessity but still less logistical problems than testing all the dogs.

 

What would come of this is a bigger seperation of the sport/show bred dogs and possible other registries cropping up for those not willing to go through the process of proving their dogs.

 

I for one do not have a problem with categorizing dogs. It helps IMO. I've spent some time with Japanese trialers. They have recognized the show, working and sport categories all along and are begining to see the necessity of keeping the lines distinct.

[Ross Bash]

Sue R -- Thanks also to you for your response. Useful information to know, if only to sort out those who care about the wellbeing of the breed from those who primarily (or only) want to capitalize on it (despite also adversely affecting it) by misleading the uninformed.

When I went looking for a pup (the one pictured here, Uri, who is now going on three years old) to replace the Border Collie I found abandoned and had for thirteen years before I lost him to cancer, I did some research and learned about the ABCA; as a result, I went looking for an ABCA breeder and found this pup -- I wasn't looking for a pup to replace the one I lost to cancer as much as looking for one who would help fill the hole in my heart. He has -- as my wife told me at the time (she was the one who actually found Uri online), our hearts actually grow in their capacity to love by the number of creatures (human and otherwise) we have the opprtunity to care for and love. As the saying goes about rescue dogs: "Who rescued whom?"

While I don't read ABCA's position as being that working dogs are only good for working (in the imited sense of herding since they obviously also excel at lots of other things like agility or just being good companions), I sensed then and still support ABCA's efforts to protect and preserve the unique quality and working ability of the breed and its informed and articulate opposition to the AKA's emphasis on conformation.

Thanks also for your advice on Jim Varnon's "Because of Eve" (though I'm still not convinced it's worth the asking price). I've read all the Donald McCaig books you mention (plus others) and also Eric Halsell's book and concur in your opinion that they're all excellent "reads," except that only Steinbeck equals McCaig in his story-telling ability (they tell a story like an artist paints a beautiful picture; they create vivid and lasting images in the mind's eye that go beyond just reading the words, so even re-reading them is always fresh and new...)

Also appreciate the quote on your post ('bark less and wag more") -- I hereby resolve to try to do so!

Thanks, again.

Ross Bash

[Ross Bash]

Thanks also to Eileen Stein and Pam Wolf for responding to my question(s). Based on Eileen's description of Jim Varnon's "Because of Eve" (that its primary value is historical), Amazon will probably be denied the opportunity to acquire still more of my money for now.

Pam, however, adds still another reference that I need to add to my working "acronym vocabulary" -- what is an "IMO?" (Do you ever get the sense that the Pentagon perhaps was put in charge of creating acronyms for the Border Collie community, given the military's love of acronyms?).

Anyhow, many thanks.

Ross Bash

[Eileen Stein]

IMO is an internet abbreviation rather than a border collie one. It means "in my opinion."

[Sue R]

While I don't read ABCA's position as being that working dogs are only good for working (in the imited sense of herding since they obviously also excel at lots of other things like agility or just being good companions), I sensed then and still support ABCA's efforts to protect and preserve the unique quality and working ability of the breed and its informed and articulate opposition to the AKA's emphasis on conformation.

Absolutely. ABCA is simply a registry and there is no attempt to categorize dogs in any way at the current time. That's where people have to do their own research before buying. But ABCA has made an effort to avoid inclusion of dogs whose purpose is the showring (dual-registered dogs who achieve their permanent championship are de-registered even though it has been determined to not be feasible to try to de-register all dogs that were dual-registered with AKC).

 

So, while there are people who register with ABCA who are not making quality breeding decisions or who are really breeding for the pet/sport market, it is still *the* registry that supports working dogs (through grants and support of USBCHA National Finals and other trials, plus health research) and the only registry in the US that now is used by serious working dog breeders (in Canada, CBCA is the only Border Collie registry as that country allows only one registry per breed).

[Ross Bash]

Thanks, again, Eileen and Sue R.

Regarding my "IMO" question, though I'm pretty good at e-mailing, I find texting to be a bit of a drag (average at best maybe four texts per month; I sometimes have to ask my grandchildren to translate or interpret a text message for me). However, to get (facetiously) more into the true spirit of this electronic communication era, let me revise this response to both of you accordingly: "Thx agin E.s. & S.r. Yrs trly R.b."

Enjoy the day!

Ross Bash

[geonni banner]

In answer to the question,"...what is working to keep the breed what it should be according the the mission of this board and what is not working for our breed?"

 

I think that individual education of people in general will be the most valuable tool. I got my first (and present) Border Collie from a Petfinders page. I wasn't looking for a Border Collie, but I knew several mixes that were very good companion dogs. The dog I have is (apparently) all Border Collie. I was somewhat intimidated by this revelation, but I loved the dog and set out to try and meet her needs as I understood them.

 

I began to scour the internet for advice on what constitutes a good life for a Border Collie. Fortunately, I quickly landed here. I was amazed at the wealth of information available in this one place. I consider myself well-informed about dogs in general, having worked as a vet's assistant, groomer, obedience trainer, and having put in 12 years in Collie rescue.

 

But I was woefully deficient in an understanding of the Border Collie.

 

My dog is both "just a pet" and an indispensable companion animal for me.

 

Someone in this thread opined that they didn't know why anyone would deliberately choose a Border Collie and not get involved - at the very least - in stock work, if only at the "hobby herder" level. The answer is simple. They just don't know any better, or it is out of their reach for some fiscal or physical reason. The latter is my reason.

 

That said, my next dog will be a working-bred Border Collie. In particular, a working-bred Border Collie that comes from a breeder whose sole reason to breed is to produce top-quality working dogs. I will not ask for a dog that is particularly good at stock work. I will request a dog that, for whatever reason, does not meet their standards as a high-quality stockdog for a farm or ranch environment or as a trial dog. I know that such dogs "happen" and I am prepared to buy/adopt one. I will try to find a dog like this for two reasons.

 

First, I can't see myself supporting a breeder who breeds for any other reason, and second, (as someone esle mentioned) the maintenance of a large, genetically diverse gene pool of working stock dogs depends on there being sufficient homes to place puppies and dogs in. Obviously the talented dogs should go to working homes. But the rest (IMO) should be the sole source for anyone looking for a Border Collie - for sport, for companion, for an assistance dog or any other reason.

 

Some may say that someone like me should get their dog from rescue. And I don't rule it out. But I would only choose a working bred dog that ended up in rescue. (Which I suspect is what I have now, as she certainly does not act like an AKC barbie collie, nor is she the candy-colored hyperactive type that I've all-too-often seen in sport-bred dogs.)