How far would you go?

[AK dog doc]

What Bill and Sue said. I'd add that even if you were putting Rune through assistance dog training and tried for the in-cabin exemption as part of her training, if you were doing it with no intention of surrendereing her to someone else, who would then use her as a service dog, you're still doing it under false pretenses. IMO, that's still cheating the system. The people who legitimately do this as part of service dog training are doing it to make a useful service dog for someone else. If you don't need her as a service dog and you don't intend to surrender her to someone who does, then pretending you do is still dishonest.

 

As adults we all have to do things sometimes we don't want to, and we all have to make difficult choices. Sometmies life is not ideal. That's just how it is. The solution to that is not to lie and cheat, but to find other legtimate solutions that are more ideal - or sometimes just deal with the situations we can't change.

[juliepoudrier]

Sarah, as for your question about putting Rune through assistance dog training, Sue, Bill, and AK Dog Doc have stated things quite eloquently. Although it's probably not an issue any longer if you're not planning to try to get Rune on board, I just wanted to point out something about this topic that I consider of even greater concern: it's one thing to lie to get your dog on board, but to ask someone else to lie (your doctor), even if he is a family friend, is really completely over the top. Doctors take an oath of ethics, and asking a doctor to lie for you is asking that doctor to break an oath. Now before anyone says that doctors write notes all the time, that may be so, but I personally wouldn't want to be responsible for asking a medical professional to compromise his/her ethics.

 

I also agree with Sue about perhaps making a greater effort to find someone else to take care of Rune. Do consider the gas money you'd be saving and how you can put at least some of that toward different care for Rune when you're gone. What about your boyfriend? A petsitter who could come by a couple times a day and play with Rune to alleviate the boredom at dad's. A friend who could stay at your place with Rune? When I have to travel, I have a couple of friends (thank you, ladies!) whom I divide my dogs between. On a recent extended trip, I begged an old friend to come "vacation" at my house for a week and look after the dogs that couldn't go with me, as well as the cats, chickens, and sheep. At other times, with the dogs farmed out to friends, I have paid someone to come over and check on/feed the cats, chickens, and sheep. I've also driven the dogs nearly four hours to stay with a friend when I had to take a longer trip overseas for work. It was worth the inconvenience and expense to know that the dogs were in a familiar place (a place we used to live) with someone they knew (since we shared a house) while I was gone.

 

There are any number of solutions you can come up with if you can spare a *little* money and are creative.

 

J.

[Dixie_Girl]

I still stand by my second statement. Putting a vest on her would be wrong but she doesn't need to do that. She stated that her doc could give her a note stating that she was too nervous flying with out her dog. She only suggested the vest as an off hand thing. I believe that if Rune will be TIED up and just fed and watered, she would be very nervous. Perhaps all the stress that Sarah has been through already with losing Pi and the others so quickly, all at once, I could see her being a nervous wreck! She does NOT have to portray Rune as a service dog, only that she needs her with her while she flies. And maybe y'all can go on about it being unethical, but do you really know what she is going through? Thoughts of something happening to Rune, etc.. Sometimes things are not so cut and dried. I stated before that putting any type of display, ie a vest, would be wrong. To simply go to her doc and say look, I am a nervous wreck, I need Rune to be with me, would you write a note? is not in any way that I can see a stretch of the truth. A persons emotional well being runs many lanes. To tell one that "A" is the only one that is "worthy" in a given situation is very presumptous on anyones part. I also don't believe that "just" the fact that she would be tied up and not given much attention is the only prob with leaving her. I mean it is only for a month. Even Jackson, who is with me 99% of the time could handle that. It seems that it is more sepperation anxciety on Sara part than anything. If taking Rune with her would alleviate that, then it is not an untruth. You can split hairs on this, but I believe that given what she has gone through, not just with her dogs, keeping Rune with her is not only desirable, but esential.

[juliepoudrier]

Linda,

Sarah didn't come here and say she was a nervous wreck about leaving her dog. In fact she said that when her mother suggested the only way she could easily take Rune along is if her doctor said she needed the dog, Sarah said her first reaction was to giggle at the thought. She presented the issue as a matter of convenience, not that she was a nervous wreck about leaving her dog. In her clarifications since then, she has not once said that she just can't make it without Rune by her side. She's said she doesn't like the way her father cares for Rune, and that she doesn't want to spend the money and time required to drive. She HAS NOT SAID she would be an emotional mess without her dog. You're reading that in as a way to try to justify what Sarah wants to do.

 

I worry and obsess over my dogs when I have to leave them. I HATE leaving them. But I will not manufacture an illness that DOES NOT EXIST (at least not until suggested by someone else) in order to save myself time and money driving. Sorry, but while your argument might make sense, I don't think that is the case here, at least not from what Sarah said at the start. If she starts to claim that she's having major anxiety over leaving Rune *now,* I for one won't believe it.

 

J.

[nancy]

BTW, maybe it has to do with airlines or where you're going. But my brother has a friend with a SAR dog. She has been able to fly with him in the cabin - and he's a good-sized golden.

 

As I've said, I would love to be able to pay for a seat for Fergie, put her in a doggie-diaper, and hook her harness into the seat belt. I'd give her the window seat and be the only one next to her. I'd probably get a sedative from her vet because of the pressure changes going up and down.

 

But I sure wouldn't take up a space needed by a service dog. Or a SAR dog.

 

Although I think there should be a limit on drunks, loud and obnoxious college kids, screaming children, fat people who lift the seat arm and take up half the seat I paid for.... Had a friend who paid for college by flying small planes for a service owned by a friend's father. SHe said her favorite passengers were dead bodies being shipped for burial. They might expell some gas on take-off or landing, but they never groped or barfed.

[bobh]

Nancy , be carefull. many fat people are disabled .

We will be writting about who gets the last seat a service dog, wich we can not realy know if it is truely a service dog, because we can not ask . or is the "Fat" persone truely disabled , but we can not ask because itsnot allowed .Once again only in the USA. Thank God

bobh

[Dixie_Girl]

Julie, perhaps I was reading more into it than what is really there. One of my quirks, I guess, I try to see the other side and "imagine" what would make a person do a certain thing. I would never dispute wrong as being wrong. I understand everyone's position and agree with it per se. I just thought perhaps there was a more underlying cause for this. Convenience is never a good or even mediocre reason for doing wrong. But I know that sometimes our past circumstances can cause anxiety that we may not be aware of.

 

I guess I was givng Sarah the benefit of my own feelings. And, as I well know, that doesn't always work out.

 

So, I will say that, my position is that IF the scenerio I described is accurate, then I stand with it. If it is not accurate, I concur with it being wrong and to not do it.

[Liz P]

I just got back from a trip to KS with my dogs. I drove 24 hrs to get there and 24 back so I could take the dogs with me because I don't want to fly them and I have had bad experiences with boarding kennels. There were no pet sitters that I trusted who could take care of the pack while I was gone. I consider nearly 50 hrs in the car and the cost of gas a small price to pay for knowing that my dogs are safe for and being able to live with myself.

[nancy]

Bobh, I have to be honest. I'm a bleeding heart liberal. Until I pay for a whole tiny seat on an airplane and someone else manages to claim half of it.

 

I have had to explain to my adult kids that a family that cannot be called dysfunctional in any way is not a normal group of people.

 

I think we are about the reach the point where every person is disabled. My son-in-law just survived a flight where an entire family usurped seats (paid for by others) in first class because one person was in a wheelchair and insisted that that gave her a right to any seat she wanted - and that she needed her family with her. They got away with it because the paying customers decided they'd rather get home than fight it. I sure hope they got their money back. Yeah, this whole group sat down and refused to move.

[SoloRiver]

Does this help clarify my motives a bit?

 

Yes. They are unethical, misguided, and selfish.

 

Since the flight is only 45 minutes long, I don't see how it would be that much of a hardship for Rune to fly in cargo. Otherwise drive.

 

Mark pointed out:

 

I believe most airlines have a limit (1-2) on how many dogs can fly in the cabin. If you bring your dog on board you may be preventing someone who requires the service of their dog from getting on that flight.

 

And I think this is important to reiterate.

[SoloRiver]

Melly,Its Ok my disability is spelling ,If you can not tell Product of the Public School monopoly

 

I went to public schools K-12, and I spell just fine. So does everyone else I know who went to school with me.

[bobh]

I am sure but i bet they did not make you change which hand you wrtight with ,iwas left handed until the 2nd grade than the teacher encouraged me to switch !

I wish i went to school with you , for one thing i would be younger and I might even know how to spell, sounds like all is not equal and fair in the usa ,

If My MOm and dad were BCs they proberly would have been S/N and not allowed to bread, Sorry MOM

OH Melanie Ithink you hurt my feelings!!

Bobh

Ps most of my fellow students droped out by the 8th grade . and did not attend Grad school.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Spelling is not my forte either (not the fault of the school I went to), so when spelling starts getting picked on, I get nervous.

 

Bobh, my brother also got "switched" when he was a kid. He's well into the Mensa range smart, but he writes like an illiterate. A friend who passed away last year was one of the smartest guys I knew, but dropped out in the 8th grade - he had a hard time expressing himself, too.

 

I disagree with your argument on the topic completely, bobh, but I don't see the constructive value behind critiquing your writing skills.

[Pipedream Farm]

Bob,

while US air carriers are required to accept service dogs, they cannot break FAA safety rules (blockage of exits and isles) and this could lead to bumping to another flight due to seating availability.

Mark

[bobh]

Thanks Mark.

I would not and never ever thought of flying my dog as a service dog it never came to my mind.

Mark how does one know if a person is truly disabled and that there dog is a "Real Service Dog"

I do agree that one should strive to be honest and ethical. being slitly illiterate and unable to clearly communicate, It is my feeling that Sarah flying her dog is not significant to me if she wants to fly her dog so be it.. I have things in my life that in my opinon are more important to fight for and spend time on .

I can not see how flying one dog will destroy the world .

bobh

[Pipedream Farm]

Bobh,

 

Based upon the reading I've done on this (prompted by this thread) there is an ongoing fight by those with service dogs to improve access to air carriers (US and non-US carriers). These groups admit that the designation of service dog is vague and imply that abuse of this may cause harm in their fight for access. I for one would not want to add abuse of this access and potentially harm their fight to improve their needed access to air carriers with their dogs.

 

The attitude of "my one dog won't make a difference in the grand scheme of things" is a common argument used by many in many problems that are accumulative. In other words, as more and more people have the same attitude, soon there are hundreds and thousands of abuses and it's no longer just one dog.

 

Mark

[Lunar]

The attitude of "my one dog won't make a difference in the grand scheme of things" is a common argument used by many in many problems that are accumulative. In other words, as more and more people have the same attitude, soon there are hundreds and thousands of abuses and it's no longer just one dog.

It's the same attitude that perpetuates the shelter problems... the "just one dog/just one breeding" mentality.

[bobh]

Mark ,i agree 100% with you .But the law has to be changed to inforce it .I never thought that flying dogs as a service dog was a problem . and if it is than it must be delt with accordingly . But it is almost a joke when one can not ask for proff of a disability or that a dog is a "Service Dog "

How do we inforce it ?

Now if I do fly and Isee a "service Dog"

Iam going to think is this truely a disabeled person and is the dog a service dog. are they just trying to get a better seat?

So after never ever thinking that someone would misrepresent there disability and there dog. I will be thinking Boy is this person trying to abuse the sytem . Thanks for the reality check.I think !!

bobh

[prosperia]

Im blown away by how judgmental some of you are being. You're treating the situation like she had already gone and done it. At least she asked for opinions first. Melanie! Geez. . .are you having a bad day or something?(and by the way, she said that she couldnt put her in cargo, because she might not get a seat, and the plane and Rune would leave without her).

I think everyone's opinion has been stated.

[Kyrasmom]

Bobh, nothing is going to be 100% for sure but I've flown with a few service dogs who I had no doubt were actual service dogs and one memorable Portugese Water Spaniel who was bouncing all over the airport prior to boarding and then seated 5 rows away from the person with the "disability". And apparently he was a seizure alert dog. While the dog was adorable, very very amicable, I higly doubt he could sense anything beyond his incredible urge to play and I distinctly recall thinking his owners not ethical at all.

 

Some things you just know.

 

Maria

[Sue R]

Good grief! So they actually seated the dog well away from the owner/handler? That means that it was the uninvolved seat-mates of the dog that wound up having to deal with him and not the owner?

 

Service dog or not, that seems to be just plain stupidity on the part of the airline (why couldn't they just rearrange some seating or set them up properly in the first place) or inconsideration on the part of the owner of the dog. The owner should have *insisted* that the dog be seated with him/her when booking, and the airline that should have *ensured* that adjacent seating was arranged at booking.

 

Of course, maybe this ludicrous situation was an example of someone using deception to cheat the system and get their dog in the cabin when it really didn't merit being there. Who knows?

[Kyrasmom]

Personally I think it was a case of the deceptive Service Dog. He was very obviously the man's dog and the wife was claimed as the "disabled" when in fact she seemed just fine. Not saying she was, not all disorders are visible..but the dog was clearly not a service dog. And the fact that the husband chose to have th dog with him was clear proof of how they simply cheated the situation to have the dog near.

Maria

 

Maria

[Keith Ramsay]

Originally posted by smileyzookie:

Keith Im not sure if you think that link is amusing because people are mentally ill, or because you think a dog cant make difference or something else? As a person who suffers from depression from time to time you'd be amazed how much difference my dog does make. Even though she isnt trained to, she really does lift my spirits if Im down. Be amused all you want, but you arent in that persons place, you may not know what it is like to have a mental illness.

Smiley ~ Sorry for the misconception. I do think that the website is amusing, but not for the reason that you mentioned. I would never discredit a disability or mental disorder. I'd say read on a bit more and my comments will make a lot of sense. I completely agree with you. My dog and cat lift my spirits every day. I could never imagine life without the joy they bring to me at the oddest times in life. I know exactly how you feel.

 

As for the website, that site goes specifically through every loophole in the ADA regulations. It is a handbook and resource center for people that want to abuse the system in place. Let me cite a few specific quotes from the website:

 

Who is disabled?

According to the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (ADA) an individual with a disability is a person who:

 

Has a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities;

Has a record of such an impairment; or

Is regarded as having such an impairment.

 

Reference: http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/ada.html

 

Although this definition sounds simple, broad and inclusive, in reality it isn?t. Congress creates our public laws, but it is the judiciary that interprets them. ADA case law demonstrates a historically restrictive and narrow interpretation of the ADA. The following link will assist you in understanding the law: ]http://www.bazelon.org/issues/disabilityrights/resources/lmtslist.htm.

 

Am I disabled?

Only a judge has the authority to decide whether or not you are disabled under the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (ADA). A judge generally makes such a determination when a civil, criminal or administrative legal case is filed with the court and it has been determined that the ADA is the appropriate law for the case. What this means for you in practical terms, is that in the absence of credible disability documentation, your planned use of a service dog rests entirely upon your own assumption of disability. If this makes you feel vulnerable, then your instincts are right on. Short of a judge?s ruling, there is something you can do to protect yourself.

 

What should my doctor?s letter of support say?

The letter below is crafted with the interests of both doctor and patient in mind. Please feel free to provide this template to your doctor for his/her consideration.

 

"[Name] is my patient. I am treating him/her for a chronic medical disability. [Name] uses a service dog to assist him/her in managing this disability, and I support him/her in doing so. Please accommodate [name] and his/her service dog, as needed.

 

Sincerely, [doctor's name]"

 

***

 

 

Ok... now I am a supporter of service animals, but from everything I have read this website is clearly shaped at helping the people that want to abuse the rules of the game, bend and do so. I think that is wrong.

 

As for depression, et al. I have a severe history of depression and suicide in my family. I'll leave it at that, but I do understand what you are feeling. I am 31, and just recently learned the deeper darker history in my family and how carefully I have been watched most of my life. A lot of things I never understood really makes sense now. Personally, I have decided that no matter what happens, quitting is not my deal. I am not saying that to devalue your depression, but more to outline that I understand, from the inside.

 

I hope this makes my comments a little more in context. I agree with you, but find that website pretty awful, because it teaches folks how to do the wrong thing, and get away with it.

[smileyzookie]

I understand what you are saying now, thank you for elaborating! My family also has a huge background of mental issues, and none of which Im too proud of. Its nice to hear that quitting isnt your deal, it isnt mine either Deceiving people is wrong, and although Im not sure I perceived that from the site, I definately understand what you mean. Thanks again for clarifying.

[MaggieDog]

Umm Keith the psychdog site is a legit site - not for posers. It's often recommended by the service dog training list I subscribe to for people that want to work with a psychiatric service dog.

 

Many people there do use psych dogs with great results. The tasks may have silly names (imo) but they are actually quite useful, esp for those w/ ptsd and other dissociative disorders.