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How far would you go?

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I am not sure what airlines allow it, but I have had friends fly around the United States with their Labrador on board. They simply bought another ticket and reserved the dog her own seat. She has her CDX title in obedience, I am not sure if that made a difference in whether or not she was allowed on board. I forget what airline they took, but they said they never had any trouble.

 

I would not pretend my dog is a service dog. He is emotional support, but I do not need him to function. I would avoid flying him in cargo if I could, but if an airline won't allow him in the cabin with me, I have no choice. People do it all the time, the dogs are okay.

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OK... a few more thoughts specifically for you:

 

If memory serves me correctly, you are still working through college painting right? Can you afford the fee of $100 per travel with your dog?

 

It is ILLEGAL to say an animal is a service animal and it not be one. VERY ILLEGAL.

 

And for everyone...

I found this link rather amusing at best:

http://www.psychdog.org/faq.html

http://www.psychdog.org/tasks.html

 

Major Depression (symptom/trainable tasks)

Apathy - Tactile Stimulation

Feelings of isolation - Cuddle and Kiss

Sadness/Tearfulness - Hug/Lick

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Keith Im not sure if you think that link is amusing because people are mentally ill, or because you think a dog cant make difference or something else? As a person who suffers from depression from time to time you'd be amazed how much difference my dog does make. Even though she isnt trained to, she really does lift my spirits if Im down. Be amused all you want, but you arent in that persons place, you may not know what it is like to have a mental illness. You dont know if the dogs training works or not. The fact you find it amusing disturbs me. I apologize if I misunderstood.

 

SA - I know driving and spending money on gas really sucks. But people will still pester you and ask you about Rune. And Ruth is right, what happens if she does freak out and worst of all bite someone? You're a nice person from what I've seen, I dont think it crossed your mind it was lying? I know it really really sucks but if you prefer to have Rune with you IMO you should drive, or have her as cargo. If not, maybe you could fly and leave her. It would be hard, we've all been there. But maybe in her best interest? Good luck whatever you decide.

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Melly,Its Ok my disability is spelling ,If you can not tell Product of the Public School monopoly . talk about ethics everyone moves on to the next grade.Hey where you my 1st grade teacher !!OMG!!

Malvie it may be the same as faking a injury but by law you can not ask me about my disability or proof that my dog is a "SERVICE DOG" and if you coul;d can service dogs betrained by the owner?

Forgive my inability to spell or type or ????Aint the USA awesome no one can ask if my dog is ligit or not Only in the USA

bobh

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bobh, Dahlin', sadly, no, I was not your 1st grade teacher. 11th or 12th grade, maybe. Didn't care for multitudes of little ankle biters. In my experience, I have learned that there are people who seem to be able to spell with no trouble, and then there are those who cannot spell worth spit. As far as I am concerned, the jury is (and forever will be) out on that subject. I really think it is a genetic thing. You're doing OK; you're communicating, aren't you??

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I laughed at the article.(that Black Watch Debatable posted the link to) I swear my dogs make fun of me more then my 2 legged kids do. I can see it in their eyes, they tease me, and they laugh at me. So what kind of "emotional" service dog would they make??

 

In all seriousness however, the letter is one thing and is not something that I would probably do myself(but I also do not fly and think it REALLY rude when my sister drags her dogs to places they do not belong or places that post no dogs or just even to my house so they can come in and take a wizz on my floor). Getting a vest even with the best intentions of not wanting to cause a scene is definatly unethical.

 

Remember though, You are the only one that can answer the question of do I feel like getting the letter and or a vest for her is unethical. For one person it would be for the next it is not.

 

Tracy

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You are the only one that can answer the question of do I feel like getting the letter and or a vest for her is unethical. For one person it would be for the next it is not.
Sorry, Tracy, but I can't agree with your logic. Situational ethics may be valid under extreme conditions but are not justifiable for wants and desires or convenience, rather than real needs.

 

I would not like dealing with someone whose ethics were dependent on what suited them rather than what was right and honest. Would you?

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On airlines I've travelled on, the cabin was limited to four live animals so potentially this could impact someone who really needs that dog and/or person who can "legally" fit their pet under the seat in front of them.

 

Some further food for thought, if everyone with a well behaved pet uses this logic and it becomes an issue for other passengers (complaints - issues - whatever) then the "right" of others who really need (or can have) their pet in the cabin will be impacted as the rules may change. What happens when airlines decide NO animals can be in the cabin because the privilege has been abused?

 

I travel a lot also and would love to have one of my dogs with me but the bottom line is that it's just not right. When I can drive I readily take one of them with me if I know I can properly care for them during my trip as well. I don't know why you're going to be on the road but you might want to consider the time contraints imposed during your trip as well. Personally, I don't leave my dogs alone in hotels and often can't take them into board rooms either. Though I did once. :rolleyes:

 

It's obviously your decision to make but like most decisions, it impacts more than just you.

 

Maria

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This subject realy ,I must say i do not get it.

 

Maria airlines can not decide that animals can not travel in the cabin ITS against the law.

They can not ask about your disability and can not ask for proof that your dog is a Service dog .

 

Like I said I donot fly much (only twice) because i do not go to places with out my dogs ,(4of them)They are not well behaved they may bark and visit with people.So I would not take them in the cabin .But I would think it would be awesome if all well behaved dogs coul;d go in the cabin . all you have to do is decrease the amount of people and increase the price or chargethe dog as one would charge a person.

 

Sue I know you do not realy mean that you wouldnot deal with people that

change there ethics acording to what suits them.

 

Everyone i know deals with these people every day and most everyone sometime in there life will be one of these people!That includes you and me ,

Like I said this is low on my list of bad stuff I say again I would not do it at this time in my life but i can say that I might do it in the future.

bobh

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No, they may not be able to refuse a service dog but they can decide to not allow "non service" animals on at all. Currently you can bring small animals, birds, cats, small dogs into the cabin as long as the carrier fits under the seat in front of you in many airlines (maybe all..I'm not sure).

 

I would love to have my dogs in the seat next to me, I would even gladly pay as I'm sure others would, but that is not an option currently available.

 

My point is that if many "misrepresent" their need to have dogs on board, it could impact how animal are allowed on in the future. And that's not fair.

 

Maria

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I agree with Sue on all points she made.

 

In addition, I've flown a lot (domestically and overseas), and I have to say that in general it's bad enough with little space and inconsiderate people sitting next to you--I certainly wouldn't want to have to deal with someone else's pet, I don't care how well behaved they *say* it is. (Besides, who's defining well-behaved here? I think we all know owners who would swear their dogs are well behaved when in fact they are anything but.) In crates under the seat is one thing, but I really don't want to be sitting next to a dog when I'm trying to eat my meal (such as it is), or sleep, or whatever I might want to do to make my flight a little less awful. If I happen to be going straight to a client and am dressed for that, I don't want to have to deal with dog hair either.

 

Yes, it kills me to have to leave my dogs at home when I travel for work. But you know what? I have to work and I want to have dogs, so I have to deal with the fact that at times I have to leave them. That's what being a responsible adult means. When I travel for work, the dogs stay home. I even have to pay someone to farm sit, etc. That's life. If I found that I absolutely could not stand to be away from them, then I would have to find work that doesn't require any travel. But I sure as hell wouldn't lie and claim I needed my dog on the plane with me just so I could get one over on the rules.

 

It's still not ethical to lie about why you "need" to have your dog with you when in fact you don't.

 

Bobh,

I'm not sure why you don't get it, but maybe having flown just twice has something to do with it. Although I don't disagree in principle with people who can pay full price for a seat and then bring their pet on board, I still think it's a problem of who gets to decide what constitutes well behaved and someone needs to consider the poor person sitting in the third seat in the row, who may not like animals nor want to ride next to one. Honestly flying is stressful enough without then having to deal with that.

 

But really I don't see the argument being so much about WHETHER animals should be allowed to fly with their owners in the cabin. Currently for the most part they are not, with the few exceptions noted. The REAL ISSUE is that we have someone who wants to misrepresent the situation (i.e., lie) in order to do something that wouldn't be allowed under normal circumstances. If it's okay for a person to lie for this particular issue, then why wouldn't it be okay for the person to lie about other things when doing so would gain them something? I don't see honesty in degrees--either you are or you aren't. I can understand that we all have likely made mistakes, lied, cheated, whatever, but that still doesn't justify the behavior. (That's like saying, "Well back in the day we really did use to drink and drive, and I might just do so again in the future, so how can I tell someone else NOT to do it? Simple. Because it's wrong. And just because any of us might have done something wrong in the past doesn't mean we shouldn't counsel other not to make the same mistake.) The fact is Sarah asked what the board members thought, and most of us think it's unethical/immoral to lie in order to gain a benefit, in this case to be able to take one's dog on a plane when it would not normally be allowed. (I think we also need to remember that Sarah rides for free because her mother is a flight attentandent. I see some ethical issues with then taking *another* seat for free just so the dog can go along, even if airlines allowed dogs as paying passengers.)

 

Obviously Sarah will do in the end what she wants to do. But even the fact that I might want to have my dog ride in the cabin with me someday is not enough for me to say to her "It's okay for you to claim you have an assistance dog when in fact you don't."

 

 

J.

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I deal with people EVERYDAY in my job that are unethical (building contractors), and no I do not like dealing with them. I was not trying to be logical, so let me re-word what I was trying to get across, that I did not do so well.

 

What I probably should have said is: You are the one that has to live with yourself when you make decisions that are either on the verge of unethical, or are completly unethical all together. So my question is, can you live with yourself when you know you are cheating the system.

 

Remember that most people will remember that Tracy was not honest in this situation, I wonder if she is being honest now? That is not something that I want people questioning about me.

 

 

Originally posted by Sue R:

qb]

Sorry, Tracy, but I can't agree with your logic. Situational ethics may be valid under extreme conditions but are not justifiable for wants and desires or convenience, rather than real needs.

 

I would not like dealing with someone whose ethics were dependent on what suited them rather than what was right and honest. Would you? [/QB]

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bobh said:

Sue I know you do not realy mean that you wouldnot deal with people that

change there ethics acording to what suits them.

 

Everyone i know deals with these people every day and most everyone sometime in there life will be one of these people!That includes you and me ,

bobh - I guess I ought to be grateful that you know what I really mean since I apparently "don't really mean" what I wrote. I am also grateful that you "know" that I am someone who "changes their ethics according to what suits them" at least sometime in my life.

 

I said:

I would not LIKE dealing with someone whose ethics were dependent on what suited them rather than what was right and honest. Would you? (edited to emphasize "like")
I don't LIKE dealing with unethical people because I don't TRUST them. I avoid doing so when I am knowledgeable enough to form a reasonable opinion and able to do so. I don't think most of us would choose to deal with someone we KNEW was unethical (that's like saying you'd choose to deal with someone you KNEW was dishonest or deceptive, etc.) and that's a choice I try to make.

 

Now, you may decide that you know what I "really mean" and that I mean something other than what I've written, and you are entitled to your opinion - but that doesn't make it right. I value my integrity, I make mistakes like everyone else does, and I'd much rather deal with someone that I feel I can trust and believe. Read into that whatever you'd care to.

 

I stand by what I've said - it's unethical to represent oneself (or their dog) as something they are not and to ask someone else to help them in a deception. There's "big stuff" and there's "little stuff" but, if it's dishonest or deceptive, it's still unethical. Stealing a candy bar or stealing a car only differs in scale, it's still stealing either way.

 

I would love to see more well-behaved animals in public places and well-behaved animals welcomed in more public places. I take mine wherever I can. If someone can have their pet in the cabin of a plane honestly and by the rules, I may or may not enjoy that particular animal's presence, but that's their right. If someone has a service animal, I am more than happy to share space with that animal on a plane, in a restaurant, or any other place they are needed.

 

Sarah asked for opinions and she's gotten some that support her desire to take Rune with her as she's outlined it, and she's gotten some that don't. That's what happens when you ask for opinions by posting in a public place.

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Tracy said:

What I probably should have said is: You are the one that has to live with yourself when you make decisions that are either on the verge of unethical, or are completly unethical all together. So my question is, can you live with yourself when you know you are cheating the system.
I'm think I understand what you are saying here much better than in your previous post. An honest person (like yourself) can't live with themself if they choose to be unethical to whatever degree. That I can surely agree with you on.

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SA - If you are still reading...

 

The flight is only 45 min? Then put Rune in cargo. I'm sure she's crate trained, right? And 45 min - 1 hour of flight time/waiting time isn't a big deal. Ask the flight attendants to notify you when your dog is on board. Ask them to board your dog last and keep Rune in A/C some place. Check in as late as you can safely make it through security.

 

45 min flight is no big deal. Travel in the early mornings to make sure it's cool out on the tarmac.

 

If we want to go anywhere here, we have to fly. There is no ferry system between the main Hawaiian Islands. If I could drive, I would. I would be such a fun chance to let Rune see/smell new things and spend some quality time with her.

 

Do not have your doctor write a note. Do not take advantage of the system.

 

If you must fly - put her in cargo and follow what I wrote up above.

 

Good luck.

 

Denise

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Maybe I'm just an insufferable goody-two-shoes, but I personally can't see how it's okay to lie and cheat to manipulate circumstances for one's own convenience. What gives one the right?

 

Would I lie if the lie would save my child's life? Very probably - although even in an extreme like that I can imagine scenarios in which I would not do it, depending on the consequences.

 

We are not talking life and death here. We are talking convenience. To say it's okay to lie (Rune is not a service dog; therefore saying that she IS a service dog is a lie) and cheat (SA does not require the dog to travel with her to assist her, so trying to sneak her into that exemption is cheating) simply to avoid some inconveneince seems really underhanded to me. It's not like the incentive to lie is that someone will die if the SA doesn't lie and cheat. This is about a matter of convenience. There are other alternatives. SA can drive with the dog, or she can travel without the dog. It's not like if she doesn't sneak Rune onto the plane, she or Rune will die. I miss my dogs when I travel, too, but that's just life. As Julie pointed out, mature adults DEAL WITH IT. That's what it means to be an adult.

 

What I don't get is how anyone can fail to see the ethical divide here. The facts:

1) Rune is not a service dog, so saying she is, is a lie.

2) Lying is wrong.

 

To me it should stop there. There should be no need to debate further. If you must, you can go into the thing about it being illegal to misrepresent yourself as handicapped, the potential for (unforseen) catastrophe down the road as a consequence of the lie, etc - but to me that should not even enter into it. It seems to me that we should all have the strength of character to say "This is wrong so I will not do it." Particularly for something as trivial as this - it's NOT LIFE AND DEATH. Why abase your principles and diminish yourself for something so unimportant?

 

This makes me think of those people who cheat, and when caught, protest the loss of their home and family by saying, "But it didn't mean anything - I don't love them, it was just sex." Well, if your family is of such great importance to you, why on EARTH would you risk it in order to have something that is of so little value to you that it doesn't mean anything? That's like dropping a diamond to pick up a penny. If you can only have one thing in your hand, which one are you going to pick? You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can either be a good, ethical person - or you can lie and cheat, whch means you are NOT a good, ethical person. You can't have it both ways.

 

My reputation is gold to me - but far more valuable to me is my ability to look myself in the eye every morning. I would go to very considerable lengths to preserve that. Why would I diminish that, make myself a smaller person, make myself weaker and less honest and honorable and just less - simply for the sake of convenience?

 

Two things:

One: All that is necessary for evil to truimph is that good people do nothing. (How much easier is it for evil to triumph when good people do bad things?)

Two: The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. (If we want to keep our hard-won civil liberties, we must eternally safeguard against their loss by NOT ABUSING THOSE LIBERTIES - or condoning their abuse by others.)

 

JMO, of course - but ISTM that labelling this an item 'low on the list of bad things' makes it all the more important not to do something underhanded in order to achieve a privelege to which one is not entitled, which one has not earned, and which will, by the dishonesty of the means of achieving it, diminish not only the perpetrator (SA) but also all thse who really ARE entitled to it, who really HAVE earned it, and who really DO need it. It's like claiming to have been raped in order to gain some advantage; that demeans all those who really HAVE suffered such a horror, and does it for personal gain. It's a means of profiting dishonestly from their suffering. Pretending to be handicapped in order to profit from it demeans all who DO live, every moment of every day of their lives, with pain, limitation and disability. Those people have enough to deal with. Why on EARTH would you do something to take even MORE away from them by stealing something to which they legitimately have a right - and YOU DO NOT? What kind of person would you have to be? I'm with Sue - that would make you into someone *I* would not want to deal with. But maybe that's just me.

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Personally, I'm a big fan of insufferable goody-two-shoes and I'm quite partial to sticks-in-the-mud also.

 

I'm glad to see so many folks on the Board share the same values and ethics as I do.

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Sue i am sorry for what isaid about you . I agree that it is wrong for Sarah to misrepresent her self and her dog but it not for me to decide and if she did this would i never trust her. I would have to make that decission on more info.

 

But I do not think it will destroy the world if Sharah flys her dog .thats all if we could put allthis energy into other wrongs we might make a difrence in the real world .

so once again I am sorry to think that at some time in your life that you may not do right . Please for give me . for the most part I do not misrepresent myself as far as i know . this is what i get myself into when I respond to things that to me are just crazzy . WHY in the hell would any one want to misrepresent there dog as a service dog . That is what i do not under stand . than we allrespond to this we or at lest me must have time to burn .As I said I would not do this and i would never even think to do it. It never entered my mind and in fact my wife and i do not fly because we would not go anywhere with out our dogs.we have jobs that do not requier us to fly and most likely would not take a job that would take us on jets .

bobh

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I agree with Ak dog doc and others who say that comprising one's ethics for convenience is a bad idea. OP should have a higher opinion of herself and hold herself to a higher standard -- and not be willing to cheat the system for convenience.

 

If the idea of simply being an honest, ethical person doesn't sway the decision, then here's another way to look at it. No thinking person should EVER do something that they wouldn't want to have to defend in a court of law. In today's litigious society, you can bet that if something went wrong on the airplane because of a dog being there illegally (when it should not be there), someone is likely to bring a lawsuit. Only a stupid person would take that finanicial risk.

 

Being logical about this, what's wrong with putting the dog in a boarding kennel, and then flying alone? With the almost free airline flights Sarah (OP) saves a lot of money by not driving, and some of that money could be used to pay for the kennel.

 

I put my two dogs (and my recently acquired Border Kitty) into a boarding kennel on a regular basis, and they all like it just fine. The kennel experience is good for them. I think it does a dis-service to one's pet to raise it thinking that Mom or Dad will never be away. I view the boarding kennel solution as a win-win. Sarah doesn't scam the system by being a liar. The dog learns that Mom won't always be there and that kennel time with other dogs is actually fun.

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bobh - Thank you. If I had a dime for every mistake I've made (make that a quarter - inflation, you know), I'd be rich. Nobody's perfect but we all just have to do our personal best to choose to do what we believe is right and good. When anybody does that, it does make a difference in the real world.

 

The USBCC boards are like a big family - sometimes we disagree and sometimes we fight, but we can talk things out and try to help each other. That's what makes it worthwhile and great.

 

Now, can anybody help me with my poopy puppy problem (under the health section)?

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Thanks , sue .

sometimes iam a jerk !

hector if my wife and i had some place to go and needed to fly we most likly would have friends take care of our dogs . nothing is wrong with boarding dogs on a regular basis. But mny wife are in a stage where we would rather stay home and swim ,play go hiking. and go to agility trials and play with our dogs aned socialize with our friends that like us find there dogs to be a big part of there life.

So I hope that i am not dis servicing my dogs by interacting with them and not boarding them ,I al;so do not frequent dog parks my dogs do not need to go . Thats another story.

 

BobH

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Just to clarify a few more lil' things..

 

My mom works for US airways. This means I get to fly free, yes, but ONLY if there is room on the plane for me. That means the comfort and care of other passengers goes before me. It also means the option of flying my dog as cargo is taken away from me, as my dog may go on the plane, but I might not if I checked her only to find out there was no room for me to fly.

 

Something else...lets say I'd decided to go through the two years of training it takes to turn my dog into an official service animal, and then proposed the question of taking her on the plane?? ...She is a service dog, officially, but I myself am not handicapped. I'm just curious as to how those of you who so vehemently disagreed with my 'proposal' of sorts would decifer that...? Ok, or stil so very wrong?

 

No, I'm not going to be taking my dog with me on the plane, not after this. I mean, of course, I asked folks oppinions because I felt unsure, and I wondered if any of you out there had tried it, or if you had the opportunity to have your dog with you, how many of you would take it. I don't need my dog there, you're right, but I like having her with me, and leaving her with my dad means she just gets tied up and fed and watered, mostly, and I hate doing that to her. I don't have enough money to drive back and forth all those times...So this was only an option I was considering. I was kind of shocked by those exclamations of how I could never be trusted should I go through with this....I mean, my mom only threw the idea at me, I'd only *just* considered it and thrown it out to you all....I hadn't had the chance the think of the terrible crime I would be committing. i was only thinking of how I'd be able to prevent my dog being left with my dad for days on end.

 

But, thank you all for your oppinions.

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Sarah - Hey, don't feel too bad. You asked for opinions and got them, and then some...

 

Just remember that if you are not honest/ethical about something, folks will wonder if you are not honest/ethical about other things.

 

I am grateful that you elaborated on your situation and that makes your concern much more understandable. However, the rest of us may face similar situations and have to make hard decisions also.

 

I think many of us would LOVE to take our dog on the plane in the cabin if we could (and if we felt the dog could cope with it well) but we can't generally and so we don't.

 

I see your issue about cargo and your finding out at the last moment that you couldn't fly. So it sounds like cargo is not a viable option for you and Rune.

 

You can't afford the driving and that's understandable, particularly with gas prices at the point they are now. Do you HAVE to make these trips or WANT to make these trips? If it's a want, you may just have to decide which is more important to you, the trip and less-than-ideal conditions for Rune, or not making the trip because taking care of Rune is more important to you.

 

If you HAVE to make the trips, then you need to consider what you can do for Rune in your absence that will be suitable for her, affordable for you (and boarding can be expensive, too), and something you can be comfortable with.

 

Here is a suggestion - do you have a friend that would take Rune for you rather than your dad, so that she wouldn't be tied up, etc.? Are there people you can trust who might be able to recommend someone who could and would take good care of her? Is there anyone here on the boards that isn't located too far from you who might be able to lend a hand (or an empty crate)? Have you considered trying to locate someone with Border Collies in your area who might be able/willing to board Rune at an affordable cost? Maybe check with the Kentucky Border Collie Association and see if they can put you in touch with someone in your area?

 

I don't think anybody here felt it was a "terrible crime" that you proposed, just that most of us felt it was a wrong thing to do for several reasons. So let's all get back to trying to figure something out that will work well for you and Rune in your situation.

 

As for getting Rune trained to be a service dog, that's not really feasible unless you have a condition that requires a service dog; and the training can be quite arduous and expensive (generally covered by donations to the organization that does the training). It would probably be a lot less time-consuming to find an alternative person/place for her to stay with when you do need to travel.

 

Best wishes for finding a good solution that's suitable for both you and Rune!

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Sarah,

 

If you don't need a service dog, it's unethical for you to take one on a plane, except perhaps as part of its training, and then only if the airline knows the score and agrees to allow it.

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