Training Collars?

[Tranquilis]

OK, in long ago days, the only training collar I knew was a simple choke-chain. That worked well enough, but I understand there's been a change or two since I was a kid.

 

Now, Suka's been here a month, and has really blossomed in the personality department, including being more willing to try things that I really don't want her doing, like spinning and lunging back at The Rude Dogs At the End Of The Neighborhood. Also, she's started scent-tracking, both in the air and on the ground, and once her nose hits a ground scent, she's On A Mission! Gone is the conservative dog who wouldn't tug on the lead, and here is a dog that wants to Go See! The flat collar that she's had on is no longer adequate, and I'm looking for advice on a new collar for walking and training.

 

So, what do you all suggest? I'd think a martingale might be best, but I really don't know how to use one, nor do I know how to properly adjust one. I've used 'search' and I've found a lot of discussion of the merits of various types, but I'm not really finding the detailed step-by-step I'm looking for.

 

A little help here?

Thanks!

 

 

Laird

 

BTW: Mods, if this would do better in another forum, please don't hesitate to move it! Thnx!

[Shetlander]

The flat collar that she's had on is no longer adequate, and I'm looking for advice on a new collar for walking and training.

 

Now that Suka is obviously feeling more comfortable, it might be time to up the ante on leave it and walking on a loose lead. Neither of those two behaviors require a special collar, at leat not with a variety of training methods.

 

I've found that a no pull harness works great to encourage polite walking, but that is management rather than training. I've used martingales mainly as a collar the dog can't slip. I suppose if you sent them tight, there would be a controlled choke collar effect. Is there some way in particular you see them as a training collar?

[Tranquilis]

Mostly, as a means of getting her attention when she's not listening - When she gets her nose into a scent, or is ready to reply 'in kind' to The Rude Dogs At The End Of The Neighborhood. I'm finding that I have to give a sharp pop on the lead to break her focus, with a flat collar. Frankly, with TRDATEOTN, I'm having to choke up on her lead to a length of about a foot, to keep her from getting in trouble. And no, I didn't start with that much choke-up, while she was still in her less-confident shell - It's only as her confidence has increased that she's reacted, making me counter react. Previously, she's just put her nose to the sidewalk and ignore them. Nor is that the only time I shorten lead - I shorten lead at random any time I take her for a walk - I have been trying to avoid her getting the idea that 'short lead'=='rude dogs.' Unfortunately, I have no reasonable choice but to deal with TRDATEOTN, if I'm to be able to give her any kind of exercise outside the back yard. Also, when she's been reacting to TRDATEOTN, she's spinning, and pulling at the lead; she's nearly pulled the collar off her head a couple times, which is why martingale came to mind first.

 

I'm mostly looking for something that will allow me to get her attention with a lot less input, and that won't slip off.

[Shetlander]

I'm mostly looking for something that will allow me to get her attention with a lot less input, and that won't slip off.

 

I've only used martingales for the not slipping off aspect. I still don't see how they'd be more effective than a flat collar as far as popping the dog.

 

Have you considered trying some other techniques besides choking up and popping? Some dogs will actually get worse with that sort of approach. Just like some become worse with a prong collar.

 

What about making a sharp noise, turning abruptly and walking the other way when she starts to respond (but before she goes over the top) to those dogs? Walk away briskly for several yards. When she is calm and with you, ask for a sit, then turn around and head back in the original direction. This may need to be repeated several times and again try to turn before she is getting out of hand. Do it at the first sign she is going to go off.

 

This takes patience. You need to be in the right frame of mind to be firm about what you expect and let the dog work out why she keeps getting turned away from her latest fun hobby. But there is no popping (other than the dog may get a pop if she takes too long to follow you despite your warning noise/word). I won't say this works for all dogs but it can be very helpful. It sounds like Suka is getting worse despite your intervention. Calling in the big guns, so to speak, is one option to address the situation. Coming at it from a different angle (using negative punishment rather than positive punishment) is another.

[Kat's Dogs]

Perhaps try a no-pull harness. That might work not only for the walking but if you want to get her attention too. Bottom line, as Liz was pretty much saying, is that it is time to step up the training. Both focus and the walking on a loose lead should be trained IMO rather than constantly managed with collar-popping or special training collars (like martingales, prongs, gentle leaders, or harnesses). A little time, a flat buckle collar, some positive reinforcement, and possibly the help of clicker or marker word can go a long ways...

 

For working on attention around those kinds of distractions maybe try figuring out just how close she can get before you loose her attention, then start the training a little farther back than that and give her lots of praise for staying focused on you. Next time try to go just a little closer, again giving a lot of praise for focusing on you. And so on and so forth.... If she won't focus on you, just walk away and try again a little later and stay a little farther back from the distraction so she can be successful. Using a method like this is letting her CHOOSE to stay focused on you and ignore the distraction so in the long run you end up with a dog that WANTS to stay focused and ignore distractions. On the other hand if you just use a training collar she might learn that she needs to focus on you, but she would probably still rather go investigate more "fun" things.

[Tranquilis]

I've only used martingales for the not slipping off aspect. I still don't see how they'd be more effective than a flat collar as far as popping the dog.

 

Have you considered trying some other techniques besides choking up and popping? Some dogs will actually get worse with that sort of approach. Just like some become worse with a prong collar.

 

What about making a sharp noise, turning abruptly and walking the other way when she starts to respond (but before she goes over the top) to those dogs? Walk away briskly for several yards. When she is calm and with you, ask for a sit, then turn around and head back in the original direction. This may need to be repeated several times and again try to turn before she is getting out of hand. Do it at the first sign she is going to go off.

In general, that's exactly my approach, but with TRDATEOTN, and with certain scents, it's no-go. The scents, of course, are completely unpredictable - I never know when Suka's going to come up on an olfactory lobotomy until hs'e already got the scent in her nose. In fact, with pretty much every other distraction but the two at hand, a sharp 'cluck' of my tongue is enough. With TRDATEOTN, well, once she's in eyeshot of their fence, it's Game Over until I can get her out of eyeshot - which means about 50 yards past my front door. It didn't used to be like that - She used to behave until they charged the fence. And before that, she used to behave even when they *did* charge the fence.

 

So, what do I do with those cases? I suppose I'll need to work at desensitizing her to TRDATEOTN. Not sure how to desensitize her to the scents.

[Journey]

IMO, it's training not the collar. Simple answer - take a can of squirt cheese with you on your walks. Before she starts the behavior, have the can in you left hand (or whichever side she is on), nozzle down, and squirt it in her mouth as she is walking. Yes, you are distracting her but you are also channeling the bad behavior to a good positive one, looking away from the TRDATEOTN.

 

Karen

[Shetlander]

So, what do I do with those cases? I suppose I'll need to work at desensitizing her to TRDATEOTN. Not sure how to desensitize her to the scents.

 

I like to use positive reinforcement. It can be amazingly powerful with hard cases. My Lhasa was described by our obedience instructor as very tough both physically and emotionally. Positive punishment (pops, choking up, scolding) barely registers for a dog like him. For that matter, negative punishment (going the opposite direction) is not always enough. He doesn't like to be in trouble. He doesn't like to see me angry. Nonetheless, he doesn't always seem to get why I would be angry or he's in trouble. But by gum, get some positive reinforcement in there (toys, treats) and he performs like a circus dog. After a while you fade out the treats/toys but by that point the dog has practiced the behavior you want and has a better understanding of what to do in that situation.

 

Not everyone agrees, but I really like teaching the behavior "watch me." It gives the dog something to do rather than just something not to do. It can truly accelerate the learning process when you're trying to stop this sort of behavior. I used to hiss "behave!" to my dogs when I'd be on a walk and I saw something up ahead that was likely to set off barking and carrying on. Those dogs actually had the audacity to respond to "behave" by their ears flicking forward and prancing in anticipation. Obviously my warning translated to "Oooh. Good time ahead!"

 

Eventually, I discovered using positive reinforcement and that wonderful Watch Me command. Now my dogs' ears flick forward and they become more animated, but it is to focus on me rather than the exciting/alarming/bothersome whatever up ahead.

[trailrider]

OK I`m dumb or dumber. What is TRDATEOTN /?

[Anda]

OK I`m dumb or dumber. What is TRDATEOTN /?

 

From the first and second posts - "The Rude Dogs At the End Of The Neighborhood"

[Genie]

I would use a martingale so that she can't slip out of it when there's a distraction. It should be fitted so that when the chain (or fabric on some) is pulled tight, the rings just barely meet. Any looser and the dog might be able to slip out of it.

 

If possible, drive Suka to a park for her walk. I'm not a fan of walking dogs in residential areas because there are too many situations that can happen that just aren't good for the dog to encounter on a regular basis. Too many dogs barking from their territory. Too much chance of encountering loose dogs, etc.

Take her for walks where she doesn't have to anticipate dogs barking at her and where each walk is a different experience. Also, enroll in a good group obedience class. You will be better able to deal with situations like rude dogs when she has learned to heel/sit/down with distractions of other dogs so that you can use one of these as an alternate behavior to keep her from responding in kind.

 

Anyway, that's how I would handle it.

[Tranquilis]

I would use a martingale so that she can't slip out of it when there's a distraction. It should be fitted so that when the chain (or fabric on some) is pulled tight, the rings just barely meet. Any looser and the dog might be able to slip out of it.

 

If possible, drive Suka to a park for her walk.

Hmmm - So rig the collar so it doesn't actually choke at all, just becomes a snug loop, yes?

 

As for the park, well, the closest park is less than a tenth of a mile away, but it's right past the largest collection of TRDATEOTN, and a number of more rude dogs have properties backing up to the park. I suppose I could take her deeper into the park - But I'll need to watch it; The grass is deep, and this is tick and Lyme disease territory. The next closest is, well, a couple miles. And I've got a schedule that doesn't allow for much driving around to and from parks. I hear you about residential neighborhoods - But, frankly, while there are a LOT more dogs in this neighborhood than I thought before Suka arrived, all the Rude Dogs live at one end. And frankly, they're not scary or dangerous - just incredibly un-tutored. Think of a room full of happy fifth-grade boys with too much sugar in their systems. Wild, out of control, and incredibly rude, but not unfriendly at their core. If I could just get fifty yards down the road without Suka keying on the nearest fenceline behind which TRDATEOTN live, we'd be in fine shape.

 

Distractions may work - I'll give that a try. I'm going to get a martingale also - I really don't trust that she's not going to slip her flat collar; she's come too close too many times already. That still leaves the olfactory lobotomies, but distractions may work there, if I can actually get her attention, once she keys on a scent.

[Genie]

Hmmm - So rig the collar so it doesn't actually choke at all, just becomes a snug loop, yes?

A very snug loop. If you can fit a finger under it, then its too loose. Also, test it to see if you can tug it over her head.

 

That sucks that you don't have good options for parks. Can you walk her a different direction for now? Its best to avoid the TRDATEOTN until you have taught a strong enough alternate behavior to use when walking past.

[Tranquilis]

A very snug loop. If you can fit a finger under it, then its too loose. Also, test it to see if you can tug it over her head.

 

That sucks that you don't have good options for parks. Can you walk her a different direction for now? Its best to avoid the TRDATEOTN until you have taught a strong enough alternate behavior to use when walking past.

If I can get 50 yards going one way, I'm good. The other way is a gauntlet of Rude. I suppose I can bribe/distract her for a fifty-yard dash.

 

 

BTW: TRDATEOTN have elicited the first signs of the famous BC 'eye' I've seen from her. I open the door, we exit, and she's instantly into a crouch, tail and head down, eyes rivited on the offending fence with laser-like intensity. Kielbasa elicited the first signs of the BC slink - I guess she's going to get nibbles of one, to distract from the other.

[Genie]

One thing you can try, that worked for my dog aggressive dog when passing strong distractions was to play the find it game with treats. I spontaneously threw some treats on the ground ahead of him and told him find it. That gave him an alternate behavior that he was likely to do in situations where other behaviors failed. One caution with this is that they can be so eager to get the treats that they can chip teeth on the pavement.