Strange New Behavior

[Scotimus]

It has been suggested to me that I should try a zinc and omega supplement for my oldest dog who has had skin problems for years. Does anyone have any experience with this. Thanks.

 

I haven't had any problems with my bc having skins issues, but I have a 13yo black lab/bc mix that has dry skin and I give him an omega3 supplement that has helped out a great deal. Picked it up at pet smart, dont remember the name of it because i'm at work right now. Cant say anything about the zinc, hope that helps.

[bc4ever]

I've been using something called AllerG3, an omega 3 supplement. Scooter seems to like it and I think it has helped his itchy paws and improved his coat. First got it from the vet's, but when we tried to get a second bottle, all they had was a different brand and strength. Looking at pet stores now.

[DTrain]

We went back to the Vet again yesterday and again nothing. But since it is so hard to detect giardia without constant testing we are going to treat them in general and get on with it. Pete shows no other signs of a problem so there is no reason to not allow him to continue to work at any level that seems to suit him. We will check Pete again in November. There is a chance that Pete is feeding off Dave's fear aggression so I will continue to work with Dave. I have ordered books that have been suggested and I am looking forward to learning something new. We are going to assume that we can reduce stress for the dogs and work in that direction. I will be working on a plan today to make positive changes. I am very relieved, I feel less stressed knowing that I at least have some control with helping the dogs. It is very difficult and a very bad feeling to think there may be something wrong with my best dog, I am sure everyone would feel the same. I have noted comments made that Pete may be feeling my stress. I guess I always knew that dogs can sense feelings but I have never had a dog like Pete who I have claimed many times is capable of thinking. It shows in his work but perhaps because I am so close to him I don't always notice how close to me he is. This will be noted in the future. It seems very strange but when I brought Pete home yesterday after the Vet visit he jumped out of the truck and began running around like a puppy. In human terms he seemed very happy and since I was feeling much better after the visit I noted that perhaps Pete was sensing my feelings. I have mentioned that we moved from the west to the east. Out west it was all work and we all loved it. I watched my dogs carefully for problems but had very little reason to be concerned with stress related and mental problems. In the east life is very different and I need to concern myself with stress for the dogs and myself. I am very happy to have learned this lesson. I am not pleased about learning it the hard way but for Mac, Pete and Dave I am now a better informed owner and that is what really counts. Thanks for your input. I trust that my posts in the future will be far more up beat but i will not hesitate to get on this board and ask for help when I do not have the answer. I feel a little stupid, I am supposed to be a trainer but then again I don't know everything and I don't mind looking a little stupid or a lot stupid if it means I can learn something to make life for my dogs better. I have been asked to write a column to help other dog owners through there problems and give sound and informed advise. I now have my first column. I am not sure what the title will be but I am more than willing to make an example of myself. No owner or trainer can know everything but to not learn and seek help in the face of a problem is stupid. The guys thank you.

[urge to herd]

DTrain, I LOVE your attitude! None of us knows everything, and to keep an open mind and a willingness to learn new tools when the ones you have don't work is absolutely one of the most important things in life, IMO.

 

A note about dogs and stress - for about 8 days beginning Monday the 18th, we were very concerned for Shoshone. She was obviously in a lot of pain, and wouldn't move at all. Two vet visits and an x ray revealed that she has a pinched nerve. While we were waiting, and she'd get better then worse again, I was very concerned that we were going to lose her. Buzz was so tuned in to my stress that he was clinging to me like a burr, and he even vomited a couple times. He's my canary, if I can keep my spirits up so that he does ok, then we all do ok.

 

Best of luck, I'm very happy to hear of the directions you're taking, and I hope all of you thrive.

 

Ruth n the BC3

[bcnewe2]

Dave

My original trainer had a great saying...

 

It's not the destination but the journey that we are working on. Enjoy the journey.

 

I'm so gald you're getting things figured out. If it's stress coming from you or you and other people, you are now very aware of how you might be contributing to it and can work on that part. Noticing how happy he was jumping out of the truck like a puppy and thinking about how happy you were at the same time is a great place to start.

They never cease to amaze me.

Good luck and why don't you post your first artical when you get it done. I'm sure we can always learn something and I think you're way better than you give yourself credit.

Kristen

[DTrain]

I would like to win just one round. I have been working with the dogs to increase activity and decrease stress. I have been working on Dave's aggression problem with very little success. I have been working with Pete and will be greatly increasing his workload. He seems to be less stressed when he has lots to do. But every time I turn around something new comes up. I will keep working with Dave on his aggression problem but now Pete has started doing the same thing. He barks and jumps at people and other dogs, this is something we have never seen in him before. I have started clicker training with Dave and it seems to be going fine but now he has developed yet a new behavior. Dave"s house training has reversed. When we take him outside we wait and wait for him to go and normally he would go immediately but now he does not go outside most times and waits until he gets back in the house to go. I just spent 30 minutes outside with him and he did nothing. I brought him back in the house, he ran upstairs and went on the floor. This has been going on for three days now. I have a series of important goose control demonstrations coming up starting September 15 and I have no idea if my guys will focus or be out of control. The past three months has been a disaster with the dogs and no matter what I do I cannot seem to get things under control. I spoke with our vet again and his suggestion is additional drugs for the dogs. These are working dogs and I consider that to be another step down the ladder. At the rate we are going with all the behavior problems my dogs will be fenced and tied house pets in no time. I don't know what to do folks and I am open to any ideas and suggestions. Thanks.

[1sheepdoggal]

Hi Dave, I am truley sorry to hear that you have had no or little sucess with the dogs with recent changes in how you are handling their day to day lives. It can be frustrating. Equally frustrating is to hear that more behaviors continue to crop up. Personally, if these were my dogs, I would cancel/drop any agendas for demo's, goose work, and personal apperences and put these dogs up for awhile. Make no demands on them, and personally, Id keep them crated and not allow them the opportunity to be in posistions to make decisions on their own be it at home it thier own yard, or on a walk. Its obvious they are making the wrong decisions and they need your guidance and confidence to back help up or break the chain of bad decision making on thier part. Thier actions speak of instability, be it in their day to day routine, or in thier minds. Some thing is not right, and it is up to you, to figure out what that is, before you can go about turning it around for them. Its only been a week or so since you last posted about trying to do some things differently. You, and Im sure you know this, but I'll say it any way, cannot and should not expect results over night. These problems have been building for awhile now, and there really is not going to be any quick fix. With some dogs, these behaviors take months, some times years to correct, as Im sure some folks on the board will agree with me on this. If you walk them, you need to watch them closely, and find out where thier comnfort zone is and dont take them beyond that. If its no further than your back yard, then thats where you start, and take baby steps each time you venture out until they are comfortable and confident, happy and making the right decisions with out input other than praise when making those right choices from you. We have been talking on another thread about "the whole package" It is possible that this is what you are expecting from you dogs, and perhaps they are lacking in some respects parts of "the whole package". It could be that these dogs just are not the dogs that are going to be the ones that can do the jobs you have selected for them. That doesnt mean you shouldnt continue to work with them, it just means perhaps you should change/adjust your expectations of them. I too have "very well bred dogs" from exceptional lines, but not all of them can or will live up to my expectations of what I plan for thier futures. Sad but true. As far as your Dave dog reverting in his house training. It sounds as if he should be back to the crate until he can be reliable again. I cant say why it is happening, but I can say what I would do to correct it. Good luck. I know that the last part of this post, in so far as them not being able to live up to your expectations is a hard concept to wrap your mind around, it has been for a few of my dogs too, but it is a great possibility, and one that has to be thought about and considered.

[Shetlander]

Personally, if these were my dogs, I would cancel/drop any agendas for demo's, goose work, and personal apperences and put these dogs up for awhile. Make no demands on them, and personally, Id keep them crated and not allow them the opportunity to be in posistions to make decisions on their own be it at home it thier own yard, or on a walk. Its obvious they are making the wrong decisions and they need your guidance and confidence to back help up or break the chain of bad decision making on thier part. Thier actions speak of instability, be it in their day to day routine, or in thier minds. Some thing is not right, and it is up to you, to figure out what that is, before you can go about turning it around for them.

 

I heartily second this. Time lines like being ready in a week to do demos puts a lot of pressure on you and therefore the dogs. That is not their time line and with behaviors you are describing, it really behooves us to let the dog dictate the pace of progress to a good degree. Something really is going wrong here and I can only guess how incredibly frustrated you must be. When you are so frustrated and the dogs so mixed up, it would be much better to avoid imposing any extra stress like demos and appearances.

 

As far as the house training issues, I agree on taking Dave out, on leash if necessary. Give him 5 or 10 minutes to eliminate and if he doesn't, take him back in the house to either a crate or to be tethered to your side so he can't go off to the place of his choosing. Then try again outside in 20 or 30 minutes or if he seems restless. But with the behavior you are describing, Dave would not be out of my supervision if he was loose until the problem was resolved. I would also make a big point of NOT scolding or punishing in any way for going in the house. That can backfire to where the dog will feel an increasing need sneak off to eliminate when you are not there to see.

 

And last, I would really try to find a good trainer or behaviorist I trusted to help me with these problems. Sometimes a new perspective can be incredibly useful. And there are sometimes training methods and techniques that I haven't heard of or didn't know how to apply effectively. The more tools in our toolbox, the better.

[urge to herd]

If you haven't already, make sure Dave doesn't have a urinary tract infection.

 

Apart from that, I agree with what Liz and Darci have said - something's going wrong, you're stressed, the dogs are stressed, and things are going even more wrong. Stop. Take the pressure off yourself and your dogs.

 

I've never been in you shoes, but can sympathize with the agonies of trying to fix things that only go more wrong. If you were building a fence, and suddenly the fence was taking a lot more pressure and buckling in spots, you could just repair each broken spot as it occured. Or you could strengthen each post and each wire methodically, making the entire structure stronger overall.

 

Good luck - we're all hoping the best for you and the dogs.

 

Ruth n the BC3

[Shetlander]

DTrain, just wondering how things were going for you and the pups. Been thinking about you and hoping things are at least a little better.

[DTrain]

Hi Guys, I have been very busy. I have four books on the go and I am studying as hard as i can to help the dogs. I have been keeping a log. Things are about the same but I have discovered that how people approach the dogs seems to make a big difference for two reasons. First, body language. Some people approach in a very friendly manner and others are very I am better than the dogs sort of attitude, you know dominant. I am beginning to understand that the dogs of course read this long before I do but I do. I have just never paid much attention to it before. When I look back in my log in virtually every case the dogs get upset I was also upset about the person from the beginning. I do not like some of the people who approach and I do not like how some people do it. It comes as no surprise that these are the same people the dogs react to. So, perhaps the dogs are also reading how I am feeling and respond as a group in defense. I am rather stressed and quite frankly I am getting very tired of people coming up to me all the time even though some of them are very nice and honest. So much for my desire for fame and fortune. I am paying as much attention as how I feel as I am the dogs behavior and it seems to be telling me the story. I should know this should I not. In the field the dogs respond to my body language and how I project myself and how I feel. I am a little annoyed at myself for not realizing this but it seems to be true. I am been trying to not face people directly and turning my body away along with a few other things and the dogs seem to be responding to what I am doing. I train herding, dogs on sheep and I find nothing stressful about it. What do I know about dogs and the big city. We have decided to decrease the stress for everyone we will take action as a group to stay away from everyone. Now Dave seems to be a little more relaxed and can concentrate on hating skateboards. I am working on it, I won't stop working on it and thanks for your input. Please jump in any time.

[Dalesred]

Hi there

 

I am a novice, definitely so I can't really offer realistic advice with this problem. There are others on here far more qualified than I am.

 

I have recently bought and watched two excellent DVDs from bluedogtraining.com, recommended first on these boards. They contain hundreds of examples of dogs reacting under stress and have been excellent learning tools for me in how to approach dogs, how to spot subtle signals in their body language and so forth. I realise now I have assumed too much in how much I really understand.

 

Both DVDs made me realise it is a miracle humans are not bitten by dogs more often, and the knowledge I gleaned will be very helpful in the volunteer work I do with a local rescue. The trainer's name is Sarah Kalnajs and there are two tapes: One called The Language of Dogs and the other Am I Safe? aimed at rescues doing behaviour assessments, but also contains some really useful info. Perhaps these will help you identify any clues your dogs are giving before they lunge. If they give no clues at all, that is also very significant of course.

 

Sarah K uses a waist attached lead to better control the dogs she works with. Maybe this is something that would work for you too.

 

Sorry if this is basic stuff, but thought I'd offer it up, just in case.

[JohnLloydJones]

When I look back in my log in virtually every case the dogs get upset I was also upset about the person from the beginning. I do not like some of the people who approach and I do not like how some people do it. It comes as no surprise that these are the same people the dogs react to. So, perhaps the dogs are also reading how I am feeling and respond as a group in defense.

That makes a lot of sense.

 

Now Dave seems to be a little more relaxed and can concentrate on hating skateboards.

 

That is a problem we share. There is something about the sound of a moving skateboard that grates on Senneca. Skateboards are evil and must be chased. Alas, in the dog park we visit, the pathway down from the parking lot to the off-leash area is a favorite for skateboarders. De-sensitizing is taking time and patience.

[Ooky]

Hi DTrain,

 

I just wanted to wish you luck while dealing with these issues. I can tell how very much you care for these dogs and want what's very best for them.

 

From the thread, I can't say I know much about any of the health issues, and am way more inexperienced than Dalesred, who called herself a novice. But I get the distinct feeling that some of these issues may stem from

 

1) Your dogs being used to a more rural life, and are not very well socialized to many of the things they encounter day-to-day living in the city;

 

2) You yourself are adjusting to a big change in your surroundings, daily activities, and lifestyle.

 

In these cases, I really think you need to give yourselves a break on all these things. I wonder if the dogs didn't seem ok at first because well-adjusted, well-cared for animals kind of seem to have a good "coping buffer" sometimes. They can travel and go into new and/or somewhat uncomfortable situations with a confidence and degree of trust that helps them react well, or at least calmly, to the new stimulus. But they can reach their threshold after a time. What they could deal with for a week or two (or more) becomes harder when it starts to seem permanent, and can be very frightening. They can get almost despondent b/c they have simply reached their limit and maybe even seem to have a bit of a grieving process as they come to terms with the fact that this isn't another temporary situation, but that things have *changed*. I know I've seen it in my cat I had for my whole young adult life - he was *really* good at moving and very adaptable b/c we moved so much. But there were a few times where a not-so-optimal living situation would go on for too long and his behavior would really change. And if anyone thinks I'm personifying the animals too much in this case, I think what I described above can apply to humans as well (I know it's happened to me during big changes!). I wonder if you aren't having a bit of this in response to your new life, which of course your loving and devoted companions will pick up on.

 

I wonder if your "job" you 4 do together for a while could be just basic training in public places and gentle desensitization training. And that includes you - you say you don't like people approaching you even if you realize they are often nice and friendly. I feel that way too, but having lived in cities most of my life I even get regular "desensitization". (I choose to work in the country, though - one of the few people I know who commutes that way ) Odin has really pushed me along in this way, b/c I'm out in the city more walking every day with him, and so many people want to come up and talk or meet him, etc. I used to be the type that when I saw another hiker or person walking by I might give a brief smile but would never really want to initiate any sort of conversation with a stranger. Will speak to when spoken to, but that's it. But now I have to have all these conversations with people I would never otherwise have spoken to, unless I just want to behave outside of social norms and ignore them or be rude. It's sometimes been hard, and sometimes stressful, and sometimes I've just wished I could enjoy my dog w/o all these other people! But MOSTLY I've come a long way and even enjoy talking to strangers now, if they are interesting. And I've actually initiated some conversations, with people who might have let me not talk to them, at the dog park or whatever. It's changing me, being with him, and in a good way, but it's very gradual.

 

My family's dog growing up was wonderful and maybe calmer than Odin but would never react as well as Odin does to some things, because we didn't work on him in an urban environment. Anyway, I do wish you well and will continue to look for updates!

[DTrain]

I miss getting up in the morning in the mountains with nobody around for miles. Just me and the stock and the dogs and I would bet they miss it to. Those were the days when I had no training issues just working dogs on stock, no stress. This change has perhaps been much more difficult than I thought and the four of us, me and the dogs, and we are building a defense against the rest of the world. But, the change has been made and we will be living with that. I look at all of the negatives in a positive way. I am no longer a country bot stockdog trainer. That is not good enough any longer for my dogs. I have more training and social challenges and I need to know more, I need to have the knowledge to help my dogs and I am doing what I can. We have a chance to learn what city stress city life can bring to a dog and work on it. We have the chance to help other people and of course their dogs. I have the chance to write a weekly column. So, the bottom line perhaps is we have first-hand experience. Thanks, I will not hesitate to go back to the board and ask what I do not know, ask for help even if it makes me look like an idiot. No matter how stupid I look or act my dogs do not care and they are always there for me, I shall be there for them.

[1sheepdoggal]

DTRAIN, I dont know where you get the idea that asking questions makes you sound/seem stupid. There are, no stupid questions. Especially, if it helps to educate you and others that are having simalar problems with their dogs, and allows for a solution to make everyones lives happier and healthier. I think you are getting or trying to give the/that impression because of a remark I made on the first page of this thread, where I said I thought you said you were a dog trainer? Training ones own dogs at home on three sheep, doesnt make one a "dog trainer" And it is my contention, that any dog trainer worth thier salt, should have the ability to read any dog at any time and be capable of surmising those problems, and have the tools to begin to turn that/those problems around with positive results in a timely manner. If you say you are a dog trainer, thats fine, but if the extent of your training abilities with your own dogs is any indication, it shows that you lack the abilities to see whats wrong, even after countless vet checks to rule out any physical problems, then yes, I would begin to question your abilities/qualifications as a trainer, stockdog or otherwise, and especially one that has access to giving the public what would/should be expected and considered to be credible training advise, based on what you do know, instead of what you dont know, per your last post. Its really none of my beezwax what you call yourself, and I am glad that you are seeking the advise of those in the know, I also dont think that asking questions makes you seem stupid. What I do think, is that calling yourself a dog trainer on a dog /training based forum and then asking those questions which in my mind, a dog trainer should know, sets you up for others to question you, and your knowledge/abilities as a dog trainer. Im sure Im not the only one to feel this way, Im just the only one that voiced thier opinion. Sorry if it hurt your feelings or made you feel you were stupid. It was not my intention. But I do think that folks that train stockdogs have a much better handle on whats going on in a dogs mind, than most other types of trainers, and it baffles me to hear you say you are a dog trainer, and a stockdog trainer, and then see that you havent been able to read your own dogs, and that folks on a forum that havent even seen your dogs, can pin point the problems and give you soloutions soley based on your descriptions. I dont question that you love your dogs, and will do what is necessary to help them, I commend you for that. But I really dont like it when you start posting to the tune that perhaps some thing some one said made you seem stupid, when you repeatedly say you are a dog trainer and or a stockdog trainer. It only stands to reason, that if you set yourself up to be questioned, that eventually, you will be.

[borderholic05]

DTRAIN My dog Gracie and I have a excellent working relationship and companion. She is very intune to my moods and reactions. She is the perfect public relations dog, loves everyone and people just love her. But on my one job there is a guy who is "ODD" and always mentions that he saw goose droppings here or there, just your everyday pain in the AS_. I noticed a few weeks back that whenever he would approach just to give me his 2 cents worth I would have to hold my emotions and just be very gruff with him. Soon after Gracie would walking front of me whenever he would approach and stare him down.... I am not sure but maybe this might be a partial problem that you are experiencing...