Sport Collies

[SS Cressa]

J

Their really isn't a reason for pay more for the same types of dogs. But we have people on here claiming that the sport border collie aren't the same type of border collie as the working border collies... So that reasoning should go that they shouldn't be the same price.

 

As you seem to have forgotten my previous post was asking about the kennel (and that I would have to import the pup). I NEVER SAID I WAS GOING TO BUY THE PUP. the post was all about TRYING TO FIND out more about the kennel. I know importing cost $$$$ and I even said(i think) I am only looking for more info. Why do you think I was going to be waiting to import?!

[airbear]

From his website:

(the first time he trial in USBCHA) he trialed in USBCHA Novice and qualified with multiple placements. He LOVES to herd.

How do you 'qualify' in a USBCHA-style trial?

[MrSnappy]

What? did you want us all to denounce the sport breeding and agree with you that the only right breeding is from working parents?! Sorry thats not going to happen.

 

Which begs the question; what are you doing on a forum that is run by and designed to promote the preservation of the working border collie, if you have no respect for that philosophy and only want sports and/or barbie collies?

 

And if in fact that is all that matters to you, why do you keep mentioning that the parents of one of your dogs can (allegedly) "herd"?

 

I could be wrong, but I think Melanie was hoping for a productive, intelligent discourse. Not a bunch of dead end arguments and red herrings.

 

You should re-read Julie's closing paragraph and think about it carefully. If you actually ponder it, it may raise some good questions to ask yourself and potentially could teach you something about the philosophy of a community of people you seem to have infiltrated only for the purpose of being contrary. This is a mystery to me.

 

RDM

[Smokjbc]

Hate to break all of your bubble but my sport border collie dad who came from barbie/sport line LOVES to herd and has started competing in USBCHA! Oh right he not supopose to do well at herding. Someone might need to tell the sport border collie?! Fast!!! before the working dog start loosing their edge. LOL

 

From his website:

(the first time he trial in USBCHA) he trialed in USBCHA Novice and qualified with multiple placements. He LOVES to herd.

 

 

Hate to break YOUR bubble, but there is no "qualification" for USBCHA Novice. In fact, USBCHA Novice does not exist as a sanctioned class- only Open is sanctioned by USBCHA. Novice may be offered by some trial hosts but it is only a training class that many biscuit eaters can do quite well in .

[SS Cressa]

Which begs the question; what are you doing on a forum that is run by and designed to promote the preservation of the working border collie, if you have no respect for that philosophy and only want sports and/or barbie collies?

 

And if in fact that is all that matters to you, why do you keep mentioning that the parents of one of your dogs can (allegedly) "herd"?

 

I could be wrong, but I think Melanie was hoping for a productive, intelligent discourse. Not a bunch of dead end arguments and red herrings.

 

You should re-read Julie's closing paragraph and think about it carefully. If you actually ponder it, it may raise some good questions to ask yourself and potentially could teach you something about the philosophy of a community of people you seem to have infiltrated only for the purpose of being contrary. This is a mystery to me.

 

RDM

 

As all my other post has mention I want to herd and trial with my dog eventually. I found this post because it boast a lot about herding and can have good input on the subject.

 

The OP had ask about why would you choose a sport breeding... We answer and then we were criticized for our answer. As I stated if she didn't want sport people to answer don't post the question.

 

SSC

[jdarling]

Please don't waste your effort or energy responding to SS Cressa. She was so proud of her inquiry into Astra Kennels that she went back and deleted all of her posts in that thread -- leaving that thread basically useless. I imagine she will do the same thing here, and I would hate to see all the folks with good information get burned out, leaving those those that actually want and come here for information without the benefit of their knowledge.

[MrSnappy]

Please don't waste your effort or energy responding to SS Cressa. She was so proud of her inquiry into Astra Kennels that she went back and deleted all of her posts in that thread -- leaving that thread basically useless.

 

Oh ... one of *those* people. Gah.

 

Duly noted.

 

RDM

[SS Cressa]

Please don't waste your effort or energy responding to SS Cressa. She was so proud of her inquiry into Astra Kennels that she went back and deleted all of her posts in that thread -- leaving that thread basically useless. I imagine she will do the same thing here, and I would hate to see all the folks with good information get burned out, leaving those those that actually want and come here for information without the benefit of their knowledge.

 

What you can't tell what my question was about from your reply?!

[Shoofly]

What you can't tell what my question was about from your reply?!

 

Does anyone know if english is this person's first language? I have a heck of a time trying to even make sense of the gibberish half the time....

[SS Cressa]

Does anyone know if english is this person's first language? I have a heck of a time trying to even make sense of the gibberish half the time....

 

LOL no english isn't my first language

[PSmitty]

Oops. Never mind.

[Denise Wall]

I hope this isn't too off topic but what simply amazes me, again and again, is the non herding people who by the thousands seemingly (not just on this list but others), come on a list with people who breed and/or work border collies on stock to a high standard, and think they know more about working border collies on stock, or how to breed for it, or how to recognize the potential for it, than those who actually do it.

 

The same people accomplished in, say, obedience, who would scoff mightily at someone acting like they had the WORLD OBEDIENCE CHAMPION!!111!! just because the dog got a CD in obedience, seem to not understand or be able to generalize that other endeavors they don't participate in are more complex than they can comprehend.

 

Is it just human nature to assume those things that one knows about are very complex but those things one doesn't know about are simple and easily accomplished or the skills easily bred for and maintained?

 

ETA This has been a really good thread.

[2 Devils]

I may be a non-herding person since my bc is afraid of sheep but I also do understand why Herding Folks are trying to preserve the breed as is.

 

My only complaint comes from the fast that many times people are slammed on these boards for their opinions. Yes I have also done it so I should also learn to chill out some. People are going to buy from where they want to buy.

 

Not all of us non-herding folks pretends to know what makes a great dog. I sure don't know which is why I do not breed.

[Rave]

I'm confused about what conversation you're having, because it doesn't really seem to be in line with the rest of the discussion. You've taken it to a whole other place, and that's a place where defensive noobs who have their knickers in a twist live. After 7 years on this board, haven't you moved out of that neighborhood?

 

Haven't you moved away from the need to attack the people, instead of their ideas? I'm here for a civil discussion, not personal attacks. I can make sarcastic veiled attacks all day long, but really, what's the point?

 

In case you can't follow, I was responding to the idea that sport-bred BC's shouldn't be called Border Collies. As an avid sports competitor who understands and supports the whole working bred philosophy, I see both sides of the fence here. My point was sports people will see it as a slap in the face if you say their dog isn't a BC, which will drive them away from any chance they have to "see the light." There are misconceptions in both the herding and sports 'worlds' and I do my darndest to promote working-bred BCs in the sports world, and encourage sporties to go try their hand at herding, and at the same time preach tolerance to the herding world to accept the sporting world for what it is, and educate (not demean) who you can when you can. The attitudes of both 'worlds' could be a little softer towards each other.

[juliepoudrier]

I'd still like to know if anyone can explain how breeding for two or three select traits that are specific to sports champions is any different than breeding for two or three select traits that are specific to bench champions.

 

J.

[Rave]

Laura,

I don't think in general that folks are criticizing people for choices they made before they "knew better." I think this forum has been fairly consistent in the stance of "what you have is what you have, but try to educate yourself next time." I certainly understand the motivation behind people who breed for sports and people who buy for sports, but I don't have to agree with it. I'm sure I'll offend some of you with the following comments, but I think they bear repeating (since others have already alluded to the same thing in this thread). Like others here have said, sports breeding seems to select for a very few specific traits, and what I don't get is that apparently these same sports folks advocate breeding for sports seem to get that when conformation breeders are breeding for just a few specific traits (looks-based in their case) they're essentially changing the breed to something else, but then can't extrapolate that same idea to sports breedings. The stock working border collie is a complete package of complex traits, and singling out just a few of them and breeding just for those does change the breed several generations down the line (that's how we have Barbie collies vs. border collies now, isn't it?). Granted, at least some sports breeders are infusing working bloodlines back in, but I think, despite vast evidence to the contrary in the conformation world, people somehow believe they can put the "herding back in the herding dog" once it's been bred out for generations of breeding for something else. The point has been made over and over that dogs of any breed can excel at agility, whereas the same cannot be said about stockwork. But I think people are so blinded about needing a dog to *win* at agility that they go looking for guarantees from top agility competitors, and of course nothing will do but a sport collie. And I see the same sort of working dog bashing going on in the sports breeding community that already goes on in the conformation community. "Those dogs are raised in barns. They have poor temperaments. Working breeders don't do health checks." All the stuff that is patently untrue, or at least not exclusive to working breeders. It's pretty sad, really, that people who choose to breed border collies for other things (sports, looks) have this need to denigrate the working-bred dogs to justify their own choices. Too bad so many folks are gullible enough to buy into it.

 

J.

 

The forum probably has been consistent, I just saw a couple posts which gave off a different impression. Just because a BC was bred by a sports competitor doesn't mean it automatically can't herd. Sure the chances most likely decrease as each generation gets further from the working dogs, but it's not as black and white as people here would like to make it. I've seen more than a few people switch over from sports to herding with their non-working bred BC and do "ok". Sure, not the world's greatest sheepdog, but what dog is in a novice's hands with only weekly lessons? It's a start though, a foot in the door, a chance to get bitten by the "bug".

 

I hear all about some of the high profile agility breedings, and ironically, they're not breeding for one or two specific traits, but rather the "whole package" just as the working breeders (albeit a MUCH different package...lol).

[Laurae]

ironically, they're not breeding for one or two specific traits, but rather the "whole package" just as the working breeders (albeit a MUCH different package...lol).

 

And therein lies the rub, Laura.

[jenkshipley]

The problem in my opinion, with "some" of the sports collies is that the people breeding them breed them because their parents are successful sometimes with little or no consideration given to problems that are prevelant in the lines. These problems include but are not limited to, epilepsy, dyplasia, OCD, CEA, temperament and behavioral issues, aggression, sound sensitivity, allergies, auto-immune problems, irritable bowel, and many more. That being said, there are also "herding" breeders who do not do hip checks, CEA testing, have known epilespy in their lines or other problems and yet still breed their dogs because of herding ability.

 

There are responsible, caring, ethical breeders out there in both venues and there are crappy, careless, greedy and unethical breeders. There are very, very many, far to many in my opinion, that fall in between the two extremes.

 

Agility is a competitive sport. Unfortunately, the "vehicle" to achieve success in the sport is not a fast car or bike or piece of machinery, but a fast dog. I got involved in agility to have fun with my dog. I am still involved in agility because it is fun with my dogs, but I also have made decisions on which dogs I own, now many and why I purchased them because I compete as seriously as possible in agility. People see a Border Collie who is successful, and at the top of the game these dogs are truly awe inspiring to watch whether you are an agility participant or fan or not, and they want one for themselves. They aren't educated or informed or just aren't concerned with the possible problems they might face. A bit of "it won't happen to me" syndrome perhaps. They are enamored with the potential for success they believe a puppy from this dog bred to this dog could produce.

 

That makes for lots of support from lots of people for dogs who really should not be being bred.

 

Border Collies are Border Collies because they were bred to work livestock by people who worked them on livestock. Dogs who are bred because they are really fast and have insane amounts of drive for agility (and right there is your answer to why the sports dogs are chosen to be bred) don't necessarily know a sheep from a fencepost nor might a dog who was bred to have a handsome coat and be structurally balanced as is currently the style in the breed ring.

 

Personally, I think way too many people are breeding their dogs and way to many dogs are being bred on all sides of the equation. There are a very frightening amount of Border Collies in need of rescue these days.

 

I don't quite understand the "I need to raise the dog myself" thing that a lot of people say when you ask why they don't get a rescue if they want a surer thing for agility. Both of my dogs the I have purchased as puppies ended up with far more problems then did the one I adopted as a rescue at a year old. As a regular foster home for Border Collie rescue for the past 6 or 7 years, I have had many, truly nice dogs come through my home some of whom have gone on to be very successful in many different activities.

 

For me, when I am ready to add a new dog, I will look to purchase a young adult from a herding person or keep one of my foster dogs for rescue that shows promise. I can know far more about a young adult dog's temperament, health, structure, drive and fit as a teammate and member of my pack then I can possibly know about a puppy no matter how well or by whom it was bred.

 

Regards,

 

Jen Shipley

Flute, Enna and Fever.

[Mark Billadeau]

Just because a BC was bred by a sports ___________(fill in the blank with something other than herding) competitor doesn't mean it automatically can't herd. Sure the chances most likely decrease as each generation gets further from the working dogs, but it's not as black and white as people here would like to make it. I've seen more than a few people switch over from sports ___________(fill in the blank) to herding with their non-working bred BC and do "ok". Sure, not the world's greatest sheepdog, but what dog is in a novice's hands with only weekly lessons? It's a start though, a foot in the door, a chance to get bitten by the "bug".

 

Same song, different verse. In the end dogs are being bred for reasons other than working livestock; the gene pool is being diluted; and the breed is changing away from "Border Collie".

[juliepoudrier]

I hear all about some of the high profile agility breedings, and ironically, they're not breeding for one or two specific traits, but rather the "whole package" just as the working breeders (albeit a MUCH different package...lol).

And when does that "MUCH different package" become an entirely different dog? I think both sports aficianadoes and stock working folk would agree that border collies, be they working or sporting, are not the same thing as Barbie collies. The Barbie collie folk could argue that they are breeding for a whole package too, albeit a much different one. So at what point do the sport collies become something else? Several people have taken offense at the notion that others consider the sport border collies not border collies, and yet these same people seem comfortable with the separteness of Barbie collies. That seems like an awful huge disconnect to me. In both cases, the breeding of the dogs is taking them well away from their original purpose, in more ways than one. They may be a complete package for what they are meant to do (sports or trot around a show ring), but they are no longer the same complete package as the working dogs. Arguing that they might be able to make it around a novice level sheepdog trial course doesn't really offer any justification for considering such dogs the same was the working dogs, not if you also consider that some Barbie collies can make it around a novice course too. But if we admit that the novice course is pretty much the lowest common denominator, then it's not saying much is it?

 

I get your argument about sports folks trying their hand at herding as well, only around here they seem content to compete only at the novice-novice, and occasionally pro-novice, level, so even if they do come over to "this side," they certainly aren't committed to the work in a way that would enable them to understand why some folks are so vehement about keeping the working in the working dog. And if you (the generic you) don't understand the need for the "whole package" that is the working dog and that is much different from both the sport or conformation dog then how can you possibly make good choices about good breedings?

 

J.

[Shoofly]

Personally, I think way too many people are breeding their dogs and way to many dogs are being bred on all sides of the equation. There are a very frightening amount of Border Collies in need of rescue these days.

 

Maybe this should go in a different thread but i have a question based on the above. Where do most of those border collies in rescue actually come from, breeder-wise? Are the largest percentage coming from actual stockdog or sport breeders - people thoughtfully breeding to produce a certain type of dog that will do well in the chosen activity, or are they mostly coming from more commercial breeders - people producing "border collies" simply to expand their bottom line (big puppy mills, small puppy mills, backyard breeders).

 

I'm just curious, and i'm sure the answer is probably location specific. I know the big mills produce a *lot* of dogs. I don't think it's a coincidence that ABCA registration numbers took a huge dive once Swafford and his gang were tossed out, for example.

[Rave]

And when does that "MUCH different package" become an entirely different dog?

 

J.

 

 

Who knows? I don't think there's a line, rather it's a gradual process where some breeders may be years ahead of others in crossing it. How long did it take to originally create the breed? Does it take a shorter time to dilute? What about outcrossing BCs with other herding breeds (wasn't this done with Beardies)? Does it add to/strengthen the breed or dilute it?

[DTrain]

Interests change. Would you turn away a "sports" person who was interested in pursuing herding with their sports BC if you didn't approve of the pedigree? Instead of demeaning someone for their choice in breeders, when they were just following normal practice or what their instructors suggested, how about educating them in a more positive manner? (this is in general, not aimed specifically at stockdogranch). I've known a number of "converts" from sports to the herding world. Dog sports competitors are just as passionate about their hobby as hobby herders are about theirs. That passion could very easily turn towards trialling, then perhaps even sheep ownership down the road. Hell the very guy who coined the phrase Barbie Collie started out in agility! Education goes a long way... and no one is going to be very receptive to learning if they're being critisized for their choice of breeders before they "knew better."

 

When it comes to dogs and I don't care what breed they are and what breeder they come from my first concern far above all other concerns is that any dog has a great owner who will treat the dog well, enjoy the dog and have an active life with it and that the dog be healthy and happy. I love border collies and I do with my dogs what they were bred to do as often as I can. Dogs require activity and the vast majority of dog owners I have met require a lot more activity than they are getting. I see too many dogs locked away and ignored and too many idiot owners but off topic. The point is dogs are being bred for whatever reason and I can only hope it is good and I want those dogs to have a great life. I have no control over breeding and dogs are going to be bred. I will focus my attention on the welfare of the dog.

I am going in a different direction. I have great herding dogs from a great line and a great breeder who has extreme concern for breeding the best working and trials dogs in the world. As it turns out my youngest dog Dave has exceptional speed and shows a keen interest and so far excellent ability in agility. There is nothing in his breeding and no intention or anything in his long family history to indicate that he would be a good agility dog but I am going to work with him and get him into agility and let him do his thing. If he turns out to be a great agility champion, great for Dave and great for the herding bred border collie.

I am tired of hearing how one dog is better than another, why one line of breeding is better than another and my dog can do better than your dog. I am tired of hearing that my stock work or my trials work is far below the challenges that an agility dog faces and that an agility dog is far better bred. I am tired of hearing how my goose work is below a herding bred border collie. I mostly go about my business quietly with the deepest concern for my dogs so perhaps Dave will slip under the radar. This herding bred Aardvark looking, to tall, too long conformation ugly little border collie is having a great time. He has no idea he can't do anything or that he is an ugly ducking but he is having a great time and I am really enjoying it. I will continue to go out of my way to make sure Dave is healthy, happy and active. Perhaps one day at an agility event he will be announced as, the funny looking herding dog that has no breeding in agility but man can this little bugger go. After winning an event the paper may read, he does not look like a herding dog, he was never bred for agility and he would be laughed off a show floor, perhaps he is a new sub-breed of BC developed under secret conditions by a crafty old guy, he is a Bordaherdagilly. That would make me very happy and play right into my sense of humor.

[Katelynn & Gang]

Once again, just because someone has sheep, it does not make them a working breeder. Just because you were told the dogs move sheep does not make it true. You never saw the dogs work personally, so you have no right to say they were/are working bred. A pedigree suggest what a dog SHOULD be but its the WORK that proves what it is. You made one simple and very important mistake, you didn't look at what you were buying and what you were buying wasn't proven on the trial field.

 

Would you buy a puppy from someone who says they do agility and only has agility stuff in their back yard, sight unseen and never trial? Hell no, you surely wouldn't and how do I know that? Because you have and/or want to buy puppies from proven agility/show or whatever it is you want lines. When you are going to buy a "real" working dog, I suggest you do the as what you have/or are doing when buying a dog bred for just sport, buy from proven lines which are trialed and which you've seen work.

 

As your dog doing USBCHA trials and being sport/conformation bred. I am guessing you are running in Novice/Novice which is a pretty simple coarse and I've even seen Shelties trained do it. It is a accomplishment, as you are herding with the dog, doing training and learning but it isn't a real big deal. When you are running that dog in Open and placing in the top 10%, then you have something to brag about.

 

Katelynn

[MrSnappy]

Haven't you moved away from the need to attack the people, instead of their ideas? I'm here for a civil discussion, not personal attacks. I can make sarcastic veiled attacks all day long, but really, what's the point?

 

A "civil" discussion? Is that what you are having? Go back and reread your posts - you have single handedly contributed every "I hate you herding snobs" sentence that ever enters into these discussions, except they are usually offered up by noobs who aren't listening to the conversation, they are just reacting and taking personally generalized comments. I admit I was surprised, and disappointed, to see them come from you.

 

I never veil my sarcasm. Gawd.

 

My point was sports people will see it as a slap in the face if you say their dog isn't a BC, which will drive them away from any chance they have to "see the light."

 

I think this is a board that is stockdog centric, and people with strong opinions about stockdogs should feel free to express them. Certainly the people who are trying to keep the breed genuine should not have to pander to sport people - especially not here. I think if anything, sport people are the ones who need to take a hard look at what they are turning their version of the border collie into. And I think that was the focus of the discussion, so it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone when strong opinions are voiced. People take it personally because they choose to, and that's a weird thing to do on a board about stockdogs.

 

Maybe this should go in a different thread but i have a question based on the above. Where do most of those border collies in rescue actually come from, breeder-wise? Are the largest percentage coming from actual stockdog or sport breeders - people thoughtfully breeding to produce a certain type of dog that will do well in the chosen activity, or are they mostly coming from more commercial breeders - people producing "border collies" simply to expand their bottom line (big puppy mills, small puppy mills, backyard breeders).

 

99% of the dogs that come through my rescue are from unidentifiable sources. They are not registered dogs. The other 1% seems to be equally CBCA registered dogs, and flyball dogs. I got three dogs from the same flyball breeder in one year, ranging from 7 months to 5 years of age

 

I know they are BYB dogs because CBCA dogs are required to have a chip or tattoo when registered. Of course some of the unidentifiable dogs may be sport bred dogs but I would not know that, since they are not registered anywhere. I have had some ABCA dogs come through as well, but I only know that when they come with papers.

 

When we take dogs from WA, OR and ID, they seem to almost always be "farm dogs." Lately BCR PNW has taken in litter after litter after litter of "farm dogs" as there is a lot more farm land in those areas than here. The market is for sure saturated.

 

I think that the idea of what makes a stockdog is more ethereal that we perceive it to be. I think this is why these conversations always come back to a conversation leveler like "So if I don't work stock I shouldn't be allowed to have a border collie???" I really think that people who do not know what a stockdog is have a great deal of difficulty grasping the concept, which could be largely why these conversations never seem to go anywhere except back on themselves.

 

RDM