Sport Collies

[jenkshipley]

I'd like to point out that people as individuals were not "complaining" that rescue dogs are taking places from their wonderfully working bred puppies. I think we hashed out the big picture view here about what was meant but obviously you chose to assume "red flags" should go up upon hearing this.

 

 

Denise,

 

The point was, that if you are a breeder and you don't have homes for a planned litter before the breeding takes place or you might have or have had problems in the past finding suitable homes for all of your pups, then perhaps that's a "red flag" that you should not be breeding.

 

 

Jen

[Denise Wall]

Denise,

 

The point was, that if you are a breeder and you don't have homes for a planned litter before the breeding takes place or you might have or have had problems in the past finding suitable homes for all of your pups, then perhaps that's a "red flag" that you should not be breeding.

Jen

 

And my point is, the responsible ones don't.

 

You yourself said you would possibly take a pup from one of these sold before even conceived sport litters. So the ideal home that you say you are is taken from a working breeder who will not breed or breed less pups. Less working pups will be bred because other breeders' pups are taking their places. The working gene pool gets smaller.

[jenkshipley]

Do you have any thoughts on how to reassure the working breeders that their lines won't be bred time and again into sport lines? I think that would be the only reluctance most working breeders would have selling to sport homes, but it's a biggie.

 

 

There are a lot of herding and sports people alike that keep their dogs intact. I completely understand the concern. There are a lot of people selling dogs from excellent working lines (unproven dogs who have not been trained or trialed on sheep, but from very nice lines) to sports breeders. I can name four or five pure sports breeding kennels off the top of my head that have "working bred" studs or bitches that they are now heavily promoting in their breeding programs.

 

A. Do not sell to these people. The newest craze seems to be dogs out of Aled Owen's Bob which have appeared everywhere as the new sports collie meets working collie craze. Astra dogs are absolutely everywhere as well. Stop selling to these breeders. If you have a pup and the breeder interested in buying it has a pretty website and lists dogs with agility titles on their accomplishments page, don't sell them a dog with breeding rights.

 

B. Screen your homes well. Ask for references, do some research. Don't ship a puppy to a person you have never met. I can provide references. They are excellent. Ask for them.

 

C. Sell on a spay/neuter contract or at the very least, co-own anything intact with say so for breeding. Here is an example of what I feel is a very well thought out and very complete contract. This is a contract from someone who owns a working farm but breeds basically, sports collies. She is responsible and careful in her breeding. I would consider a puppy from her. In fact, I would be much more comfortable purchasing a puppy from someone like her who does very careful screening, regularly turns potential homes down and sells on a firm contract then I would buying from someone who is willing to take my cash and send me home with a pup with little restrictions and few questions asked.

 

 

 

Entered into this ____ day of _________ 2006 by (hereinafter referred to as the "Breeder/Co-owner") and

_______________________ residing at ___________________________________(hereinafter referred to as the "Purchaser/Co-owner" or "Buyer")

 

This Border Collie puppy, to be named _____________________________ whelped on has been sold to the person(s) listed above as Purchaser/Co-owner(s) for the sum of $______

 

THE FOLLOWING DOG, BRED BY

:

SEX _______ COLOR___________MARKINGS_______________________MICROCHIP#______________________

SIRE _________________________________________AKC# ________________ ABCA#______________________

DAM__________________________________________AKC# ________________ ABCA#______________________

 

GUARANTEES AND AGREEMENTS

It is agreed that the intent of the following guarantees and agreements is to protect both buyers and seller, and to ensure that any dog with congenital health problems will not be used for breeding purposes. The full purchase price recorded on this contract is based on the following guarantees and assumptions by the seller regarding the above-named dog:

1. That the dog is healthy at the time of purchase.

2 . That the dog, when x-rayed and evaluated by the OFA, will be free of congenital hip dysplasia and elbow dysplasia.

3. That the dog will be free of hereditary eye defects as determined by a board certified veterinary opthomologist.

4. The above dog is being sold to the purchaser/owner with the understanding that he/she must be co-owned while intact with the breeder/co-owner. It is the purpose of this co-ownership to insure that the above dog is never used for breeding purposes (unless a breeding addendum is attached). It is further understood that the purchaser/owner or any other party may not collect semen if this is a male dog for later use without the written consent of the co/owners/breeder. It shall also be understood that any accidental matings shall also be considered a violation of this contract. The puppy will be registered with the American Border Collie Association (ABCA) with the Purchasing Co-owner as the owner and Breeder/co-owner as the co-owner. Once the puppy is spayed/nuetered, the Breeder/Co-owner will sign full ownership over to the Purchasing Co-owner.

 

HEALTH AT TIME OF SALE

This puppy, at time of sale, is a healthy, happy puppy of sound temperament. S/he is the result of selective mating of parents with certified hip and eye clearances. Your puppy was also examined by a board certified veterinary opthamologist ______________ on and a copy of the CERF certificate will be provided to you.

 

DOG HEALTH AND BUYER AGREEMENT

1. The buyer agrees to contact the breeder should the buyer need to part with this dog for whatever reason. The breeder reserves the right to first refusal

2. The buyer agrees to contact the breeder at all times when the dog has been seen by a veterinarian for any condition other than routine reasons. The buyer agrees to divulge to the breeder any hereditary condition which may be detected and to provide copies of the veterinary report to the breeder.

3. The buyer agrees to contact the breeder in the event of the dogs death within 48 hours.

4.The buyer agrees to contact and consult the breeder before the decision is made to euthanize unless euthanasia is required due to a veterinary emergency. Written proof of said emergency to be provided to the breeder within 48 hours of death.

Hip and Elbow Health:

A. Buyer agrees to have the above mentioned dogs hips X-rayed by a licensed veterinarian between the age of 24 and 34 months. The buyer also agrees to submit the above x-rays to the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals, and forward a copy to. The buyer shall pay all cost for this procedure. A copy of the report from the findings of this X-ray shall be furnished to.

B. Should this report indicate congenital hip dysplasia the buyer shall make available to the sellers all x-rays upon which this diagnosis is based, and a copy of the OFA results. In no case will the dog be used for breeding, and the Buyer agrees to sterilize the dog immediately.

C. It is further understood that this dog is not to be jumped over 16 inches before it's first birthday nor to be introduced to standard height agility contact obstacles, or weave poles before this date. Any deviations from this stipulation will render the hip dysplasia and elbow dysplasia portions of this contract null and void.

D. If the diagnosis of a congenital malformation of the hips is substantiated, the buyers shall provide notification by a licensed veterinarian that the dog has been spayed/neutered. Upon receipt of neutering certificate, we will refund one half the purchase price. If the buyers elect to return the dog to the breeder, there will be no refund given.

Hereditary Eye Diseases:

A. Buyer agrees to have the above dog tested by a certified veterinary ophthalmologist between the age of 24 and 48 months. The buyer agrees to pay all cost for this procedure.

B. Should this report indicate an inherited eye disease the buyer agrees to make this report available to the breeder.

C. If the diagnosis of a hereditary eye disease is substantiated: The seller shall provide notification by a licensed veterinarian that the dog has been spayed/neutered at which time seller will refund from half to total purchase price of the dog. In no case will the dog be used for breeding, and the Buyer agrees to sterilize the dog. If the buyers elect to return the dog to the breeder, there will be no refund given.

Epilepsy:

A. If the dog should display congenital epilepsy before the age of 3 years the breeder will refund 50% of the purchase price to the purchaser upon satisfactory proof of the defect, evidence that it appears to be genetic in origin, and a written diagnosis provided by a board certified veterinary neurologist. If the buyers elect to return the dog to the breeder, there will be no refund given.

 

CONDITIONS AND PROVISIONS

1) The buyer agrees that is to be the prefix of the dog's name. Failure to use the prefix will result in the voiding of all health guarantees.

2) If the buyer elects a refund under the terms of this contract, he/she agrees to furnish proof that the dog has been sterilized prior to refund. If the buyer chooses to return the dog to, there will be no refunds given.

3) The buyer agrees to make any claims arising out of the foregoing guarantees no later than this dog's fourth birthday. After that date the sellers will no longer be responsible to the buyer in these matters. However it is understood by the buyer that first right of refusal on the purchase of this dog belongs to the seller the life time of the dog.

4) In the event that a dog is used for breeding where written permission of has not been given to breed the said dog, a $10,000.00 fee shall be levied and this fee shall be binding upon the said purchaser. This shall include "accidental breedings".

5) It is further understood that the Breeder/Co-owner will never require the above animal to be used at stud or collected if male or to produce a litter if female (unless a breeding addendum is attached).

6) The owner/purchaser of the above dog will have all rights and responsibilities for the welfare of this dog with the acceptance of the above breeding rights or those rights specifically given to the breeder in the attached pet/performance contract . All cost and liabilities associated with the care, feeding, training and health shall be the sole responsibility of the owner/purchaser.

7) The owner/purchaser may terminate the co/ownership at any time by spaying/neutering the above animal (unless a breeding addendum is attached) and presenting written proof from a licensed veterinarian to the breeder/co-owner.

8) It is understood that this dog may not be co-owned by any other parties than the above owner/purchaser and co/owner/breeder while this contract remains enforce.

9) It is understood that in the event of the death of the above purchaser/owner/s, the dog will be returned to the co/owner/breeder is s/he is intact.

 

It is understood and agreed to by the parties to this agreement that this agreement and the purchase and sale of the said dog shall fall under the jurisdiction of the laws of the county and state of residence of the breeder respect to this Agreement shall be dealt with as per the laws governing this location. It is further understood that any circumstances/situations/disputes arising which are not covered within this Agreement shall be remedied at the discretion of the breeder and the breeder's decision shall be final and binding.

 

By signing this Agreement of Sale, the buyer acknowledges having read this Agreement in its entirety and agrees to all terms and conditions within this agreement.

 

Signature of Buyer___________________________________________Date__________________

 

Signature of Seller/Breeder____________________________________Date__________________

 

 

 

 

 

 

And I would like to second what Denise said. It's a bit disingenuous to come here and say you don't want to get in a back and forth discussion

 

 

Denise picked one sentence out of a paragraph that I wrote so she could argue. I am not interested in arguing. As a whole, generic entity I was talking about sports homes. As a whole, generic entity I was talking about working homes. I certainly was not speaking directly for any sports person but myself and I do not presume that any commentary I made on working breeders encompasses every breeder. As you see, I am perfectly willing to answer a reasonable reply. If there aren't enough homes for a litter that is planning to be bred, in my opinion, the litter shouldn't be bred. That was the gist of the paragraph. If you want to argue whether puppies that don't have suitable homes should be produced, go ahead. I already have a firm opinion on that as do most of us who are involved in any way with rescue. That being said, I am certainly not a militant rescue person. I own two dogs I purchased as puppies right now and one that I adopted through rescue.

 

Would you have any qualms about buying a pup from a working breeder on NB status?

 

I think if you read what I wrote, you will see that I say by all means sell to me on a spay/neuter contract. All of my current dogs are spayed, all of my future dogs will be spayed/neutered after they reach maturity.

 

Would sports competitors abide by such a thing? Would they refuse to buy a pup with NB status?

 

If they would not, then I would say, don't sell them a dog. Most of the decent sports breeders (again I support working bred dogs as opposed to sports bred dogs because I feel the things that make BCs so amazing need to be protected and preserved) sell on a very restrictive contract and on a spay/neuter contract.

 

Jen

Flute, Enna and Fever

[jenkshipley]

Thanks Jen. That was a very insightful and well balanced answer, and I really appreciate you taking the time to write and post it.

 

Hi Melanie,

How is Solo doing? Flute will be 10 this year. I can't believe it. I hope all is well in CA!

 

If this discussion opens up door to those of us who would like to support the integrity of the breed as whole, but who also do not provide a traditional working stock home to our dogs it is a good thing. I think it was a great idea to start the conversation. Thanks!

 

Jen

 

 

I know Jen, and she is an excellent owner and handler. If I bred Border Collies, I would not hesitate to sell her one. I have seen how dedicated she is to her dogs, how much work she will put into them, and the success that results. Her dogs are very well loved.

 

Even though this discussion has been contentious at times, I think it has been very enlightening and I am not at all sorry to have started it. It has addressed many issues that the Border Collie community as a whole needs to think about. If it continues, I hope it does so in a productive manner. Thanks everyone.

[juliepoudrier]

Jen,

What I'm not understanding is the implication from your previous post (not this last set) that working breeders won't sell to sport homes, so most sport folks won't even look to working breeders. How do we get around this? Also, a number of sports folks who have responded to this thread said that they would absolutely not consider a pup that was on a spay/neuter contract or NB status. You seem to be stating in your most recent posts that it is quite acceptable among sport homes to buy puppies on S/N contracts and even post a nice example of a contract. There seems to be a disconnect here. On the one hand we hear that working breeders won't sell to sport homes and that sport homes wouldn't take a pup on a S/N contract, and then you say that it's quite normal for sports folks to buy on a S/N contract and there are responsible sports homes who would buy working bred pups (the whole implication that the working folk won't talk to the sport folk notwithstanding). You then go on to say that working breeders aren't carefully screening homes, so of course there are sports breeders out there who are breeding the heck out of working bred dogs (I'll just say that Astra was discussed in another thread on this board and leave it at that).

 

What you call a red flag for breeding issues is what most working breeders are facing and why they would prefer to place some of their pups in pet homes vs. anywhere else--because most pet homes find it perfectly acceptable to S/N and wouldn't think twice about the request. That doesn't seem to be the case with sport homes, if the sports folks who have replied to this thread are any true indication.

 

So here's the conundrum:

1. You come along and say that sports folks will accept S/N contracts, but you seem to be the minority (at least of folks posting on this forum).

2. You say working breeders shouldn't breed pups if there aren't homes lined up for those pups ahead of time. What you don't seem to understand is that there are usually plenty of willing working homes to take the pups, but they may not be the types of homes where the breeder would feel comfortable placing a pup, hence the comments about needing pet homes and other good nonworking (stockwork) homes. I don't know how many other ways to say it to make others understand this concept, but I'll repeat myself yet again: most responsible, caring, ethical working breeders would like to see their pups in forever homes. Sadly, in the working community the forever home concept isn't as common, which is why many of the aforementioned breeders would like to be able to find other outlets for their puppies--not because there aren't working homes who would take those pups, but because these breeders would rather see the pups in good *homes*, period. The entire litter needn't be placed in working homes for the breeder to be able to evaluate the success of the particular cross.

3. You say that working breeders are already selling to sports breeders, who in turn are cranking out sports puppies from those working lines. You tell us not to sell to these people, and guess what, that's what a big part of this conversation has been about. Most of us (as I've said before) don't want our dogs used to crank out future generations of sport collies. So again that leads us to needing pet homes for some working bred dogs. Homes that will most likely keep the dog forever and will honor a S/N contract. Aside from your comments, it seems the other sports folks who have posted have been pretty roundly in favor of buying sports bred litters because they can expect that if the parents are both superstars then they have a better chance of getting a superstar sports pup than if they took a chance on an "unknown" pup out of a working litter. You say that's not the case, at least for you. Do you ever talk to your fellow sports competitors and encourage them to look for pups from nice working-bred litters? Do others you know do the same? Or are most going to the top sports breeders no matter what anyone says?

 

It seems that we mostly agree on the big things. Where we disagree is whether it makes sense to breed working litters if there aren't plenty of nonworking homes available for the pups. And that takes us full circle around to all the other breeders out there who are producing the pups that are taking up the available homes. Where we disagree is when you say, that as this is the case, the good breeders of working dogs shouldn't breed at all (because many of the good homes are being taken by sports, pet, etc.) breeders, some of us are saying that the working breeders need to breed if we are to protect and preserve the working border collie (from which all those others sprang). You can't protect and preserve by letting all the other breeders out there do the breeding while the working gene pool grows ever smaller and less viable because no one is breeding those dogs.

 

J.

[jenkshipley]

Jen,

What I'm not understanding is the implication from your previous post (not this last set) that working breeders won't sell to sport homes, so most sport folks won't even look to working breeders. How do we get around this?

 

I am not sure how to get around this problem to be honest. I personally, when I am ready for another dog, have some contacts in the herding world so I will either go to them and let them know what I am looking for and ask for their help, contact that working breeders that I already have research on and know dogs from who I really like, go to herding trials that are close by to watch, or some varying form of the above. I have done a lot of research online about pedigrees and lineage, health and success of certain lines, I have even researched the lineage of my rescued, but very well bred Border Collie, Enna. So, setting up a website to provide information about your dogs, your breeding program, your contract, health and genetics of your lines, their accomplishments, etc. is not a bad thing. It provides an avenue for potential homes to find you. I think there is also a breeder directory on Little Hats.

 

 

Also, a number of sports folks who have responded to this thread said that they would absolutely not consider a pup that was on a spay/neuter contract or NB status. You seem to be stating in your most recent posts that it is quite acceptable among sport homes to buy puppies on S/N contracts and even post a nice example of a contract. There seems to be a disconnect here.

 

 

I would say for every 10 serious agility people, one or two have all of their dogs randomly intact in case they want to breed. Most people do not have their dogs intact and do not have intention of breeding. I do think, and I did post this in an earlier post that the number of people randomly keeping their dogs intact in case they want to breed them is increasing. I know quite a few people who do not actually have farms where they raise stock for a living but who have some sheep and have a few dogs who also have their dogs intact and do or will breed as well as agility people. I don't have an answer to how to stop that, but I think that the majority of sports people, not that minority are willing to buy without the option to breed.

 

On the one hand we hear that working breeders won't sell to sport homes and that sport homes wouldn't take a pup on a S/N contract, and then you say that it's quite normal for sports folks to buy on a S/N contract and there are responsible sports homes who would buy working bred pups (the whole implication that the working folk won't talk to the sport folk notwithstanding). You then go on to say that working breeders aren't carefully screening homes, so of course there are sports breeders out there who are breeding the heck out of working bred dogs (I'll just say that Astra was discussed in another thread on this board and leave it at that).

 

 

So here's the conundrum:

1. You come along and say that sports folks will accept S/N contracts, but you seem to be the minority (at least of folks posting on this forum).

 

I do think you are correct on this forum, but I don't think that the majority of sports home are intent on free breeding rights.

 

 

2. You say working breeders shouldn't breed pups if there aren't homes lined up for those pups ahead of time. What you don't seem to understand is that there are usually plenty of willing working homes to take the pups, but they may not be the types of homes where the breeder would feel comfortable placing a pup, hence the comments about needing pet homes and other good nonworking (stockwork) homes.

 

But then there are not enough suitable homes for a litter of puppies that is being planned, right?

 

I don't know how many other ways to say it to make others understand this concept, but I'll repeat myself yet again: most responsible, caring, ethical working breeders would like to see their pups in forever homes. Sadly, in the working community the forever home concept isn't as common, which is why many of the aforementioned breeders would like to be able to find other outlets for their puppies--not because there aren't working homes who would take those pups, but because these breeders would rather see the pups in good *homes*, period. The entire litter needn't be placed in working homes for the breeder to be able to evaluate the success of the particular cross.

 

 

And I think some of the problem everyone is facing, whether it be working people concerned about the integrity of the breed, Joe Smoe sports person who wants a well bred, healthy, sound dog with a solid temperament or those of us involved in rescue is that for every responsible breeder on either side of the fence who does everything right, there are twice as many mass market, irresponsible breeders churning out dogs as fast as they can sell them with little regard to where they are sold.

 

Do you ever talk to your fellow sports competitors and encourage them to look for pups from nice working-bred litters? Do others you know do the same? Or are most going to the top sports breeders no matter what anyone says?

 

 

Always! And yes, I know many people doing the same. Some people are swayed and do research and fine a nice working bred litter. Some go to the latest fad in top sports bred, multi-colored dogs and pay $1000 - $2500 for a sports bred dog who, if they are lucky, don't end up epileptic, dysplastic, sick or just plain unstable in temperament by maturity. This is a problem definitely. I never suggested I had the solution. I just suggested that perhaps more sports people who, in the majority I would say, tend to be very good and very caring homes for their dogs, would turn to working dogs if their breeders were perceived as being more accessible and were willing to answer the questions that sports people tend to have about testing, structure, temperament and history.

 

Where we disagree is when you say, that as this is the case, the good breeders of working dogs shouldn't breed at all (because many of the good homes are being taken by sports, pet, etc.) breeders, some of us are saying that the working breeders need to breed if we are to protect and preserve the working border collie (from which all those others sprang). You can't protect and preserve by letting all the other breeders out there do the breeding while the working gene pool grows ever smaller and less viable because no one is breeding those dogs.

 

 

Which is also been discussed earlier in this thread. How can breeding be regulated in such a way that the number of dogs being bred is decreased and the people not breeding responsibly an be diminished? I don't have the answer to that. I wish someone did.

 

Best,

Jen

 

 

J.

[Lenajo]

Regarding the contract issue - is that even enforcable in court? That is, without hiring some famous lawyer and laying down your life savings?

 

I personally had what I considered a good contract, but when an owner chose to screw me I was well...hands tied puts a lot of misery in a tidy statement. I didn't have the money to take them to court, and I didn't have the money to pay what they were holding my dog hostage for. In the end it turned out ok, but I now place no value on the contract beyond the opening of communication channels. I place most of the value in a dog/seller agreement on an established relationship between myself and the buyer. And that type of relationship takes time...which means I must breed even less even if the caliber of the parents is excellent. No skin off my nose there, but that's *me* as an individual. Unfortunately that means that yet another decent working breeder is producing less for the working genepool

 

As for co-ownerships, I have a real problem with those as a breeder because it makes me legally responsible for a dog out of my care and control. Also again, if the co-owner desides to mill a litter or two, sans papers, how are you going to stop them? Take them to court - heck, by the time it gets out of court the pups be long gone.

 

As Julie pointed out, the opinions so far on this thread, plus my personal experiences, are that more and more sport homes will not buy on a s/n contract. You appear to be a delightful exception, and because of that I ask how that attitude can be changed? When did people like Rosanne (who stated if it was a good sport dog and healthy she deserved the right to breed from it) develop that attitude?

 

In the past, and I expect in the future, I've decided against litters here with the potential to produce nice working dogs because 1. I didn't need a dog and 2. since I didn't need a dog it didn't justify the work of producing a litter proprely, and 3. despite having several good working homes for each potential litter, the bulk of the litter was not prehomed because of limited available pet homes, mostly because I had already sent them to various rescue organization (those I had not directed away from this breed period)

 

So in truth, I could have produced more nice working dogs but the surplus homes I required (BC suited, forever homes) were taken by Rescue dogs by my choice.

 

I could have sold the pups all off as non-s/n workers to whoever asked, but I don't do that...not only because it appalls me in general, but because I don't want to chance being second generation producer of sport lines and/or mill dogs

 

During the time frame I decided against 3 litters and homed over 2 dozen Rescues - about 2 years - 3 sport breeders I rubberneck at it produced a total of..

 

19 litters.

 

NINETEEN litters

 

As in approxiametly 114 puppies. Most sold on spay/neutered contracts, so presumably these forever type homes could have been directed to working breeders, or at the very least well selected rescues. But they were not, because those breeders wanted their puppies sold first and foremost.

 

In that time frame I housed 3 "non-productive" breeding females at my expense (they don't bill me for work done, so I'll let that slide now ) those breeders made approximately...

 

$228,000.00

 

That's assuming litters of 6, wiht a price for each pup as $2000 - the average between the 3 and their various litters.

 

The Standard for the new and improved Sport Collie is Money. You can talk about ground speed, jump style, and soundness all you want. I know better. The root of this mess is cold hard cash.

[Shetlander]

The above dog is being sold to the purchaser/owner with the understanding that he/she must be co-owned while intact with the breeder/co-owner. It is the purpose of this co-ownership to insure that the above dog is never used for breeding purposes (unless a breeding addendum is attached).

 

 

Does this breeder choose to co-own as opposed to a limited registration/NB because at some point the dog might be used for breeding? As a buyer, I would be leery of being co-owners with anyone I didn't really know and seriously trust. What advantage would there be for me to co-own my dog with someone for a year or more while waiting to neuter a dog I have no intention of ever breeding? I guess I'm trying to figure out the benefit of temporary co-ownership as opposed to the dog being sold without breeding privileges.

[Shetlander]

Julie, I know you addressed this to Jen, but I also wanted to chime in.

 

1. You come along and say that sports folks will accept S/N contracts, but you seem to be the minority (at least of folks posting on this forum).

 

This thread is so huge that I could well be mistaken, but I can only think of two who talked about wanting the option to possibly breed at some point. I do think that the average sports person is like the average pet owner and prefers to spay/neuter on general principle. I've never wanted to breed any of my dogs -- ever

 

Aside from your comments, it seems the other sports folks who have posted have been pretty roundly in favor of buying sports bred litters because they can expect that if the parents are both superstars then they have a better chance of getting a superstar sports pup than if they took a chance on an "unknown" pup out of a working litter.

 

Well, first off, this thread was started with the question of would you please explain the justification people have for sports breeding? I explained how as a sports person I approached getting a dog which is how I ended up at a sports breeder. I no longer think that way, but three years ago that was what made sense to me. I think a few others were saying the same thing about this is the thinking that yes, for most sports people they think in terms of going to what they see as proven sports lines.

 

Do you ever talk to your fellow sports competitors and encourage them to look for pups from nice working-bred litters? Do others you know do the same? Or are most going to the top sports breeders no matter what anyone says?

 

I don't know any other competitors at this time who do encourage and believe in getting dogs that are truly working bred. Some talk about working bred dogs but so far I found all those dogs to have all been as every bit as sports bred as Quinn. I don't think most sports people understand the difference between working lines and working bred. Or maybe they simply don't accept that there is a difference. I'm pretty much out of sports right now but my guess is the vast majority of sports people are going to sports breeders. My friends are too polite to argue with me when I say my next dog is coming from rescue but I know it isn't something they think is a good idea if I want to for agility anyway.

[Lenajo]

I don't think most sports people understand the difference between working lines and working bred.

 

Good point,and I agree. Many of them think that herding is simply "training" just like what they do for sports.

[jenkshipley]

Mini - Poll.

 

I sent an email to 12 or 15 agility people. I will not be posting last names or anything, but one is going to the Invitational (she is not a BC owner but is considering a BC in the future) for AKC Agility. You are invited based on the agility success of your dog. One is the owner of a past World Champion Steeplechase winner. One is an agility judge that judges agility shows in one venue. Others are very serious competitors, some less serious. These are the answers so far. I will include all answers I receive and I have asked everyone to forward the message. If you want a reasonable answer to how many people will buy on a spay/neuter contract, research. I know this isn't a giant list of people but it is a good, mini-slice of agility people.

 

 

Email that was sent out:

 

I am trying to provide some information on a point to tradionally working breeders of Border Collies. Please just answer the following question and please forward to anyone you think would be willing to answer the question and ask them to email me.

 

Would you buy a very well bred Border Collie from a breeder who asked for a spay/neuter contract to be signed and why or why not?

 

Thank you! I will not post your info - just first names and your answers. This is on the Border Collie Boards.

 

My answer - Yes. Reason - I have no desire to be a breeder.

 

Amy - I would by a dog on a spay and neuter contract because I too,

have no interest in being a breeder or making a dog available to stud.

 

Maureen - Yes. I too have not desire to breed and I believe it is in the best interest of the dog IF I am not going to breed.

 

Heather - Yes. I don’t want to be responsible for maintaining an intact dog and I have no desire to breed.

 

Judy - Yes - It signals that the breeder is responsible and cares about their lines. They only allow breeding of stock that has demonstrated sound working ability and health clearance.

fyi - Sieg is on a contract that states I can't breed him without Ann (his breeder) approval of the bitch.........

 

Tinna - Yes, and have. I don't want the responsibility of being a breeder

 

These are the answers I have received so far. I think anyone's opinion that the masses of sports people won't buy on a spay/neuter contract are incorrect.

 

I'll forward any other responses.

 

Regards,

Jen

Flute, Enna and Fever

[juliepoudrier]

Hey Jen,

While you're polling your friends/acquaintances, can you ask them where they would get a pup, or specifically if they would look for and buy a pup from a working breeder--not just working lines, but someone who actively works and trials their dogs at open in USBCHA (and probably doesn't do any dog sports)? I think that could be an even more useful poll for the working breeders.

 

A related question would be how working breeders can tap into this market, since we are disconnected from the agility folks by virtue of the fact that we don't operate in the same circles.

 

J.

[jenkshipley]

Why don't you guys, meaning a number of breeders of working dogs put together a few questions and I will be happy to send out an email and see what responses I get?

 

 

Hey Jen,

While you're polling your friends/acquaintances, can you ask them where they would get a pup, or specifically if they would look for and buy a pup from a working breeder--not just working lines, but someone who actively works and trials their dogs at open in USBCHA (and probably doesn't do any dog sports)? I think that could be an even more useful poll for the working breeders.

 

A related question would be how working breeders can tap into this market, since we are disconnected from the agility folks by virtue of the fact that we don't operate in the same circles.

 

J.

[C Crocker]

Do you ever talk to your fellow sports competitors and encourage them to look for pups from nice working-bred litters? Do others you know do the same? Or are most going to the top sports breeders no matter what anyone says?

Always! And yes, I know many people doing the same. Some people are swayed and do research and fine a nice working bred litter. Some go to the latest fad in top sports bred, multi-colored dogs and pay $1000 - $2500 for a sports bred dog who, if they are lucky, don't end up epileptic, dysplastic, sick or just plain unstable in temperament by maturity. This is a problem definitely. I never suggested I had the solution. I just suggested that perhaps more sports people who, in the majority I would say, tend to be very good and very caring homes for their dogs, would turn to working dogs if their breeders were perceived as being more accessible and were willing to answer the questions that sports people tend to have about testing, structure, temperament and history.

 

 

 

Best,

Jen

J.

 

 

Jen,

 

I have a question related to this part of your post I quoted. Since I read that sports people routinely have their dogs tested for all kinds of things ( hips, eyes, etc), are the spots bred collies with all those problems you stated from breeders who test? And is there a test to see if a dog would be prone to epilepsy? I know next to nothing about sports bred border collies and their owners, other than the few I have met while taking lessons on sheep .

 

I bought a working bred border collie four years ago and was guided by the breeder who is also the trainer/trialer of these dogs. That's where I learned of the eye cerf exam ( it was included in the price of the pup) and when to get the hips/elbows OFA'd. So my experience of working breeders must be way different than what sports people claim the working folks to be.

 

 

Interesting topic.

 

Carolyn

[jenkshipley]

I have a question related to this part of your post I quoted. Since I read that sports people routinely have their dogs tested for all kinds of things ( hips, eyes, etc), are the spots bred collies with all those problems you stated from breeders who test?

 

NO! Although we all know that even the most careful breeder can have problems appear. Its the less then ethical and responsible breeders on all sides who breed despite known issues in the lines. Unfortunately these days you best do your research about the health of the lines you are going to purchase from anyone.

 

And is there a test to see if a dog would be prone to epilepsy?

 

No again but they are working hard to come up with a test. There is a lot of contention also about dogs who have relatives or who have thrown epileptic puppies and if, how and to whom they should be bred. That is an entirely different topic though.

 

 

I bought a working bred border collie four years ago and was guided by the breeder who is also the trainer/trialer of these dogs. That's where I learned of the eye cerf exam ( it was included in the price of the pup) and when to get the hips/elbows OFA'd. So my experience of working breeders must be way different than what sports people claim the working folks to be.

 

Actuallythere are I am sure many responsible working breeders who do test and do hip checks and keep track of progeny and their health, soundness, etc. There are many who do not, just as there are many sports breeders who do not.

[jenkshipley]

Mini - Poll.

 

Terry - My answer is also YES. I also have no interest in breeding

 

 

jen

[C Crocker]

[

 

 

I bought a working bred border collie four years ago and was guided by the breeder who is also the trainer/trialer of these dogs. That's where I learned of the eye cerf exam ( it was included in the price of the pup) and when to get the hips/elbows OFA'd. So my experience of working breeders must be way different than what sports people claim the working folks to be.

 

 

 

Actuallythere are I am sure many responsible working breeders who do test and do hip checks and keep track of progeny and their health, soundness, etc. There are many who do not, just as there are many sports breeders who do not.

 

 

I wouldn't have a clue as to how many working breeders do or do not test , other than the ones I have dealt with , but I do know my trainer, Suzy Applegate, who is currently at the Sheepdog Natl's competing with the results of her breeding program, does the needed health checks and educates her customers as well. I am so grateful I found her and followed her guidance. I have bred horses for over forty years and I do realize things can pop up, but it is wise to test for what is relevant to your animal and it's intended use, even if it is not a guaranty of what may happen down the road.

 

Carolyn

[Root Beer]

I can't speak for anyone else, of course, but as a sport person, I would happily buy a dog on a spay/neuter contract. We told Speedy's breeder that we would neuter him and we did.

 

With a male I would likely hold off neutering until one year due to the growth plate thing, but it would be done and no breeding would occur.

 

As for a co-own, I would never agree to such a thing. Once a dog is in my home, he or she is on a training plan. While it's one thing for that plan to be set aside for illness or injury or other extenuating circumstances, it would not be OK with me for the plan to be interrupted so the breeder could take the dog to breed at a later time.

 

FWIW, I've always had the impression, too, that working breeders are reluctant to sell to pet/sport homes.

 

I'm not saying that's how it is - I'm saying that's the impression I had gotten. Based on a lot said in this thread, it seems I had the wrong impression in that regard.

 

Do you ever talk to your fellow sports competitors and encourage them to look for pups from nice working-bred litters? Do others you know do the same?

 

Carolyn, I hope you don't mind if I jump in on this one!

 

Personally I don't. The main reason is because I have no direct experience with purchasing, raising, and training a working bred puppy. Dean is working bred, but I adopted him from rescue at 10 months old, so it's a little bit different. I don't really feel qualified to recommend something that I have no actual experience with.

 

If the day ever comes when I do raise and train a working bred puppy (and I hope that I will someday because it sounds right up my alley), I would then feel qualified to recommend working bred puppies to others, and I would know a little bit about how to go about finding a working puppy.

 

I always encourage people who say they are interested in Border Collies to rescue because that has been my best experience in acquiring dogs.

 

I do not recommend sport Border Collie breeders.

[C Crocker]

[

Carolyn, I hope you don't mind if I jump in on this one!

 

 

 

 

Feel free. It wasnt a quote from me and I don't know the answer either!

 

Carolyn

[Smokjbc]

I’m guessing a breeder’s contract is probably only as good as the parties involved. I personally have never signed one, although I would. Except for the first BYB dog I got (very good, if haphazard, working lines but a wash-up as a sheepdog), I would consider all the pups I’ve gotten to be from ethical working breeders.

 

3 years ago, I was considering another pup and contacted a few people and was referred to Diane Pagel from the boards. Before I bought the pups (we bought littermates), we had spoken about her philosophy on standing by what she bred, even going so far as paying fair market value (i.e, over the puppy price) for a started dog that didn't work out for the buyer. In my situation, with already 6 dogs at home, adding two more dogs meant they must work out for us as working dogs. Unfortunately, my pup did not mesh well with me and although she was keen enough and there was not anything "wrong" with her, I could not forsee any progress in her training so long as I owned her. I only wanted what was in the best interest of the dog and offered her back to Diane, expecting only that she might help pay to ship her up there. I was pleasantly surprised to receive a pup from a different breeding in exchange, the dog I sent up was placed in a good situation and I have a pup that is just right for me. Jet was definitely worth the wait and I'm glad I went to a breeder that would work with me and the dogs to find the right situation for both.

 

I really feel that we can all talk about contracts until we are blue in the face, but nothing will change the fact that both parties need to be clear about what is expected and have mutual respect for each other and of course, the best interest of the dog in common. Contracts may be enforceable, but at what cost for the breeder, the buyer and the dogs? Better to start out with people you trust to begin with and who have a good track record.

[C Crocker]

3 years ago, I was considering another pup and contacted a few people and was referred to Diane Pagel from the boards. Before I bought the pups (we bought littermates), we had spoken about her philosophy on standing by what she bred, even going so far as paying fair market value (i.e, over the puppy price) for a started dog that didn't work out for the buyer. In my situation, with already 6 dogs at home, adding two more dogs meant they must work out for us as working dogs. Unfortunately, my pup did not mesh well with me and although she was keen enough and there was not anything "wrong" with her, I could not forsee any progress in her training so long as I owned her. I only wanted what was in the best interest of the dog and offered her back to Diane, expecting only that she might help pay to ship her up there. I was pleasantly surprised to receive a pup from a different breeding in exchange, the dog I sent up was placed in a good situation and I have a pup that is just right for me. Jet was definitely worth the wait and I'm glad I went to a breeder that would work with me and the dogs to find the right situation for both.

 

I really feel that we can all talk about contracts until we are blue in the face, but nothing will change the fact that both parties need to be clear about what is expected and have mutual respect for each other and of course, the best interest of the dog in common. Contracts may be enforceable, but at what cost for the breeder, the buyer and the dogs? Better to start out with people you trust to begin with and who have a good track record.

 

 

Jaime,

 

I bet you are glad you found Diane when you were looking for a pup. And I suspect your's and my experiences with working breeders is not rare. I bet there are many out there, including many on this bc board.

 

Carolyn

[DeltaBluez Tess]

>>>Before I bought the pups (we bought littermates), we had spoken about her philosophy on standing by what she bred, even going so far as paying fair market value (i.e, over the puppy price) for a started dog that didn't work out for the buyer<<

 

I have a pup that I had sold. She was in training with another top handler and the owner (Christine) was pleased. Then her life changed and she called me. I asked that the owner give me first buy back. She paid $500 for the pup but the pup had some training on her so I bought her back for $1800. She was a notch above Novice. I didn't feel like telling Christine that I would pay her the puppy price for a pup that had grown up and had training. If I would have said I would only offer the puppy price back, she would have sent her to me but I wanted to make sure that Christine got a fair price for her dog.

 

As it was, I was happy that I was able to buy the dog back. I had to make time payments and she worked with me on that. I have had puppy buyers, even with contracts, sell the pup/dog without telling me. I have sold pup to agility homes, but they are also my herding students. They fixed their dogs. I also have had NB papers or s/n contracts. Those pups got great homes!!

 

I have gotten a dog from another person on this board. Well, actually I didn't get Nan from her but from her 4th owner. However, she was the breeder and if I ever decided that Nan was not going to work out for me, I know for a fact, she would have her on the next flight home. She teases me all the time about Nan. (Nan is not going anywhere, BTW)

 

My pups have CERF exams and the parents, (CERF, DNA CEA, Hips/elbows) as well as the number one, working. A lot of the working breeders that I know on this board do that also.

 

We all are passionate abotu our dogs. Sometimes our passion gets a little hot

 

 

Diane

[herdcentral]

Before joining this board I really had no idea that there was so much difference , I just thought a BC was a BC! I didnt even know that they came in any other colours than black and white. I met someone recently with a merle and they told me that it was the only dog left from its black and white litter mates because people thought it didnt look like a BC and didnt like the weird colour!.

 

I love agility but my dogs are pets first and I deal with whatever happens. My BC was a breeder return and she is a Barbie with some of her relations doing well in agility. She loves to run like the wind on the beach and going on long bush hikes with me and then sleep at my feet. We have just started trialing and I actaully think she finds agility boring which is a bit dissapointing.

 

One day in the future I would love a working bred BC but would have no idea how to go about getting one and even if a working breeder would sell me one. All the working dogs where I live are kelpies, probably because of the hot arid conditions. I had a working bred ACD once and she was wonderful smart, drivey dog, I could have done anything with her.

 

I always spay my girls at 12 months as I believe breeding is for responsible breeders. Sure I would love to do well in agility and have a dog that loves it as much as I do but it is not a deal breaker. I would never part with any dog for any reason.

 

I would love to try herding and see some awesome kelpies working often in my job but there is no way of learning unless I was to ask a local farmer to help and they are all very busy and have other worries with all the droughts we have been having.

[2 Devils]

I also s/n all my dogs. I do not want to be a breeder because my dogs aren't proving a thing and I am just not a breeder type. They may play sports but they aren't going to make the breed any better. I would sign a s/n contract and have. My bcs breeder even asked that I at least try Tempe on sheep. I did as I was asked twice. Tempe was a herding dropout. I will probably try again now that she is older though. Her brother is doing pretty well from what I hear.

 

My dogs are pets first. They have a forever home unless there is a HUGE problem that cannot be solved as with my acd and my toy poodle. I did not have to rehome either because I did find a solution. The rehome would only have been to my mom's house on the mountain where my acd would love to live actually.