Sport Collies

[Shoofly]

I think it might be an easier concept to grasp if some folks stop focusing on semantics and one-by-one case scenarios. What the working folk are advocating for is the preservation of the (working) breed as a whole and how, as a whole, the breed will change if you start breeding for new criteria. When you take a subset of the working breed and breed for something other than ability, you are in effect changing th(at subset of the) breed. This has little to do with individual dogs. Big picture.

 

RDM

 

Thank you, yes. One point though. I suspect that the Working BC is actually a subset of the "breed", in this country at least. The vast majority of "border collies" are probably non-working, puppy mill, BYB, border collie look-a-likes. Sport collies are probably a subset of, and intermingling of, both of those.

 

And just to be clear, i don't think it's possible to "save the breed" as a whole, especially if my suspicions about the number of working BCs compared to "bcs" is true. My concern and intent is to preserve the *ability* and function of the working dogs.

 

Where is Denise and her graphic about the mingling of the populations and abilities?

[3dogslater]

Along the lines of the Australian Kelpie and the Australian Working Kelpie?

 

The work is the standard.

 

I can see where sport breeders think they are doing just that. Their "work" is a combination of speed, bidability, structure, temperament, tested at trials designed to evaluate based solely on performance and not looks. The characteristics valued by working breeders overlap many of the ones persued by sport breeders, however they are evaluated against a different set of tests. I understand that for a working breeder, herding ability trumps all else. For a sport breeder, agility/flyball is their standard.

 

Dogs who win at Nationals and Worlds, dogs who run well under 4.0 in flyball, dogs with huge yps - from a sport breeders perspective, they are breeding dogs who can do the "work" to increase their chances of getting pups who can do the "work". There are crappy sport breeders and the huge dollars people are willing to pay for a flashy dog is a big part of that problem.

 

(before anybody jumps down my throat, I have three rescues that I do agility with, none of them working or sport bred, although the dog I got from That'll Do Border Collie Rescue could be considered a candy colour because he is brindle)

[juliepoudrier]

Rescues without papers really could be anything and they could be called anything. Presumably no one is breeding them, so it doesn't really matter, does it?

 

The point of this discussion is that if people breeding border collies for dog sports are selecting certain specific structural and behavioral traits that can be found in the greater population of border collies as a whole (working or not) and ultimately end up with a dog that breeds true for those sports-specific characterstics, which are not the same characteristic set as appears in the breeding stock from which they started, then they have in effect created a new breed. That's exactly how new breeds are created. The thoroughbred was developed from an Arabian/barb type horse (Godolphin Arabian, Byerly turk, and Darley Arabian) crossed on fast native horses in the UK. Selective breeding for the fastest horses followed. And so the thoroughbred was created. Does anyone still call a thoroughbred an Arabian?

 

J.

[MaryP]

I think it might be an easier concept to grasp if some folks stop focusing on semantics and one-by-one case scenarios. What the working folk are advocating for is the preservation of the (working) breed as a whole and how, as a whole, the breed will change if you start breeding for new criteria. When you take a subset of the working breed and breed for something other than ability, you are in effect changing th(at subset of the) breed. This has little to do with individual dogs. Big picture.

 

RDM

 

Again, I don't think anyone is arguing this point. But, I don't see why some folks are so opposed to calling a dog a border collie just because it hasn't worked stock. Working folk are going to continue to breed working dogs regardless of the fact that some sport breeders are breeding for other things; or, that some "breeders" are breeding for who-knows-what reason.

 

My main problem with breeding dogs for reasons other than filling a need for more working dogs isn't that they are calling them border collies. It's that people are breeding dogs when they have no business breeding dogs. Period.

[Shoofly]

RDM, I get that, and I think Mary and Kristine do, too. I get that the work is the standard and that alone should dictate breeding. I'm just curious about the whole "it's not a border collie, it's a different breed" argument when it comes to dogs who aren't working bred.

 

It's not about being "working bred", it's about *proving to have the ability* to do the work.

 

If both of your parents are accountants, but you become a lawyer, are you an accountant by birthright and proclamation? Perhaps having 2 parents who are accountants would have given you a special gift in accounting, maybe not, but you don't know because you're a lawyer. Even if you all have the same surname and look sort of alike, i'm not hiring you to do my taxes.

[PSmitty]

It's not about being "working bred", it's about *proving to have the ability* to do the work.

 

OK, *now* I'm being obtuse...so if you have to wait until a dog proves itself to have the ability to do the work, which you don't really know until a year into it's training, what is the dog's breed considered until then, if it's not a border collie *yet*?

[Shoofly]

The point of this discussion is that if people breeding border collies for dog sports are selecting certain specific structural and behavioral traits that can be found in the greater population of border collies as a whole (working or not) and ultimately end up with a dog that breeds true for those sports-specific characterstics, which are not the same characteristic set as appears in the breeding stock from which they started, then they have in effect created a new breed. That's exactly how new breeds are created. The thoroughbred was developed from an Arabian/barb type horse (Godolphin Arabian, Byerly turk, and Darley Arabian) crossed on fast native horses in the UK. Selective breeding for the fastest horses followed. And so the thoroughbred was created. Does anyone still call a thoroughbred an Arabian?

 

J.

 

Exactly! The sport people may actually over time end up producing another breed. And i guess, historically speaking, if there's a need, maybe that's okay. That's how we got breeds before. Personally, i don't really care, as long as the original purpose and ability can be preserved. I know that's sacrilege here in go-get-a-rescue-land but so be it. If you want a pet, then Rescue Collie is a good choice. If you want a stock dog, go for Working Border Collie.

[MaryP]

If both of your parents are accountants, but you become a lawyer, are you an accountant by birthright and proclamation? Perhaps having 2 parents who are accountants would have given you a special gift in accounting, maybe not, but you don't know because you're a lawyer. Even if you all have the same surname and look sort of alike, i'm not hiring you to do my taxes.

 

That doesn't really make sense to me. Being an accountant is simply a *chosen* profession. I think a better analogy would be to consider a person's ancestry to being akin to a "breed." Say my parents are both Norwegian (they're not, I'm a mutt) and they are both doctors. I, on the other hand, grow up to be a lawer. I'm still Norwegian by birth. I just happen to be a lawyer by profession. I'm a Norwegian lawyer.

 

I think that border collies born of border collie parents are still border collies, even if their "profession" is something other than working stock.

[Shoofly]

OK, *now* I'm being obtuse...so if you have to wait until a dog proves itself to have the ability to do the work, which you don't really know until a year into it's training, what is the dog's breed considered until then, if it's not a border collie *yet*?

 

A puppy. And it doesn't take a year of training. And i think you are being obtuse, as you said.

[jdarling]

If both of your parents are accountants, but you become a lawyer, are you an accountant by birthright and proclamation? Perhaps having 2 parents who are accountants would have given you a special gift in accounting, maybe not, but you don't know because you're a lawyer.

 

And you should be speutered. Not because you're a lawyer, but lawyers should be speutered, because we don't know anything about your working ability, er, um ... I mean ... I didn't mean to say that lawyers don't work ... umm ... but their breeding is in accounting, and accountants are very smart ... um ... I don't mean to say lawyers aren't smart, but ... oh, dear.

 

:D :D

[Shoofly]

And you should be speutered. Not because you're a lawyer, but lawyers should be speutered, because we don't know anything about your working ability, er, um ... I mean ... I didn't mean to say that lawyers don't work ... umm ... but their breeding is in accounting, and accountants are very smart ... um ... I don't mean to say lawyers aren't smart, but ... oh, dear.

 

 

[MrSnappy]

RDM, I get that, and I think Mary and Kristine do, too. I get that the work is the standard and that alone should dictate breeding. I'm just curious about the whole "it's not a border collie, it's a different breed" argument when it comes to dogs who aren't working bred.

 

I don't really see why. If you get yourself, say, a BYB unpapered Malamute from the local shelter, it's theoretically still a Malamute if you recognize it as such and it looks like a Malamute. Probably everyone knows it is a Malamute, and while perhaps without having its parentage and paperwork you in theory shouldn't call it a Malamute, it's fairly safe to say that's what it is.

 

If you get a BYB unpapered border collie from your local shelter, it's also theoretically still a border collie if you recognize it as such and it is recognizable as a border collie. I don't see how anything would change there.

 

In *theory* none of us rescuers should technically be calling any rescue without a known history a border collie, but imo that goes back, again, to semantics. I *do* think it's equally silly semantics to call such a dog a "mixed breed" however, as someone suggested.

 

But when it comes to breeding specific dogs for a selection of traits that are not related to the purpose and definition of the breed, you are no longer dabbling in semantics, you are dabbling in big picture genetics. This is a different matter.

 

To me this argument is no different from the people who confuse the "border collies should be working bred" argument with the "Are you saying if I don't work my border collie on stock I shouldn't have one?" non sequitur. It's taking a broad theory and applying it to an individual dog on a personal basis where it makes no sense. It would be like conducting a sound sensitivity study on a sample of 2 dogs and coming to a generalized conclusion about the breed with that "sample". This is about defining the breed as a whole and perpetuating it positively or negatively, not about singling out specific dogs. I honestly don't understand taking it to a microscopic level and dismantling it *there.* It might feel like a counter argument, but I don't think it is one. To me it just feels like a red herring. Again, JMO, of course.

 

RDM

[Laurae]

I think that border collies born of border collie parents are still border collies, even if their "profession" is something other than working stock.

 

Yes, I agree. And when those border collies born of border collie parents are bred to nonworking border collies, the offspring of that union begins to become something else. That's the line--it may not be immediately apparent with regard to looks or character traits, but that right there is where the line between working border collies and, um, other [sport, etc.] border collies begins to blur.

[MrSnappy]

although the dog I got from That'll Do Border Collie Rescue could be considered a candy colour because he is brindle)

 

I gave you that one so people would laugh behind your back and call you the Paris Hilton of dog sport people.

 

:D

 

RDM

[Shoofly]

In *theory* none of us rescuers should technically be calling any rescue without a known history a border collie, but imo that goes back, again, to semantics. I *do* think it's equally silly semantics to call such a dog a "mixed breed" however, as someone suggested.

 

Yeah, you're right and i'll take that back. I was being flip.

[PSmitty]

A puppy. And it doesn't take a year of training. And i think you are being obtuse, as you said.

 

And like I said, I'm better off dropping it.

 

That doesn't really make sense to me. Being an accountant is simply a *chosen* profession. I think a better analogy would be to consider a person's ancestry to being akin to a "breed." Say my parents are both Norwegian (they're not, I'm a mutt) and they are both doctors. I, on the other hand, grow up to be a lawer. I'm still Norwegian by birth. I just happen to be a lawyer by profession. I'm a norwegian lawyer.

 

I think that border collies born of border collie parents are still border collies, even if their "profession" is something other than working stock.

 

Exactly, Mary. You put it much better than I could.

[Root Beer]

I actually don't care if they're called border collies, right up until you start talking about breeding them. If you breed dogs based on anything other than working ability, you're not breeding border collie puppies, you're just breeding dogs.

 

That's one point where we definitely differ. The offspring of two Border Collies, no matter what the intent of the breeding, is not "just a dog". Those dogs, whether you call them sport collies or poodles, are very distinct from the average dog. If the dogs resulting from sport breedings, poor working breedings, etc. were really pretty much the same as a Lab or a Golden or even a sheltie, people would not be seeking them as Agility dogs and so forth. They are far more Border Collie than "average dog".

 

I concur that the whole working package is usually compromised, but these particular Border Collies still retain very distinct characteristics that separate them from the "just a dog" category. Sometimes those characteristics go haywire and one ends up with drive and no off switch, or compulsive problems, etc. But often the result is an incredibly agile, remarkably focused, particularly intelligent dog that is a canine sport partner like no other.

 

And until a clear distinction can be drawn between these dogs and working Border Collies, as far as I'm concerned, they are all Border Collies. If and when a separate breed really is discernable with out genetic testing or extensive stockwork training, then I'll see it differently.

[herdcentral]

I am new to the BC and I do agree that it does seem pretty pointless to breed a BC for looks alone. So when I get my next BC, I would like to look for a working bred BC. My dogs lead an active life and would be companions on long hikes, spoilt house pets and as training partners in agility and are with me for life. Do working dog breeders sell dogs to people like myself?

 

I can pick up farm bred BCs from farmers where I live as the extra pups are often shot or given away and some end up in rescue. I have had friends lose pups to fading puppy syndrome and seen some serious temperament issues among some of these dogs and pups. Some nice dogs too but where I live you can wait for a long time for nice BC to come through rescue - I tried for a young adult but failed.

 

But a well bred working BC are they sold into sport and pet homes? How do working breeders place their pups?. Does it all get too hard for the average sports person so they look to people breeding BCs that do well in the sporting world?.

 

If the defining attribute of a BC is working ability then I guess a deliberately bred conformation or sport collie should be known as something else.

 

Although the average person would look at my dog and immediately know her as a BC. They wouldnt know or care if she was a working dog, show dog or agility dog.

 

 

Caroline

[MrSnappy]

But often the result is an incredibly agile, remarkably focused, particularly intelligent dog that is a canine sport partner like no other.

 

But lots of agility people with other breeds would argue the exact same thing. Kelpies are becoming the "new" border collie locally - they are incredibly agile, remarkably focused, particularly intelligent canine sports partners. Does that make them border collies too?

 

I think that's a whole different can o'worms.

 

RDM

[Laurae]

Kristine, the problem is that it is a continuum. Robin and others are making the distinction at the first step on that continuum, and you, Mary, Paula, and others are making the distinction much later along the continuum.

 

I think the place along this continuum where one finds their personal line in the sand depends on how big a picture they are seeing with regard to the border collie losing the working traits that define the breed.

 

No offense intended at all to anyone!

[Debbie Meier]

Wow, interesting thread...

 

My take, as long as there are registration papers evidencing a dogs breed to be Border Collie through liniage then matching two sets of the same papers together will produce a Border Collie regardless of the dogs ability and talent. Until a prerequisite of "Working Ability" is applied in order to achieve registration or a curing is conducted to cull non working dogs or dogs that have proven to not be able to produce more working dogs from the breed base the name Border Collie will only be ligidamatily based on the papers presented, with the exception of an occassional ROM dog approved for registration.

 

If a person breeds Quarter Horses and selecting from registered horses year after year, they select based on horses that look and act arab eventully they will have Registered Quarter Horses that could pass for Arabs, they will not be accepted in the Arabian Stud books, but they will not be culled from the Quarter Horse Stud Books, they are still Quarter Horses though they no longer carry the attributes that defined the breed when it was established. We have entered into a world of pedigree defining breed rather then traits vs. traits defining breed.

 

As a whole we are going backwards, originally the traits defined the breed, papers were issued to help document how the traits came about, now the papers define the breed and selection for traits is secondary. In reality those that breed based on papers first then traits are not truely taking working ability ahead of all else, they are taking evidence of liniage ahead of working ability. I'm not trying to be argumentative, just as someone else noted in another post, conversational.

 

Sometimes I wonder if the ranchers that threw their registration papers out and breed based on what they like and want to improve have the right idea.

 

Deb

[Shoofly]

I am new to the BC and I do agree that it does seem pretty pointless to breed a BC for looks alone. So when I get my next BC, I would like to look for a working bred BC. My dogs lead an active life and would be companions on long hikes, spoilt house pets and as training partners in agility and are with me for life. Do working dog breeders sell dogs to people like myself?

 

Yes, absolutely. We just ask that you evaluate its ability as a stockdog before even thinking about breeding it, and so that we can evaluate our own breeding programs.

 

I can pick up farm bred BCs from farmers where I live as the extra pups are often shot or given away and some end up in rescue. I have had friends lose pups to fading puppy syndrome and seen some serious temperament issues among some of these dogs and pups. Some nice dogs too but where I live you can wait for a long time for nice BC to come through rescue - I tried for a young adult but failed.

 

I would prefer to see people give good homes to working bred puppies than go to a rescue and get a dog of unknown parentage. I know some nice pets come out of rescues but i'd prefer to see working dog breeders supported and those puppies getting the good homes they need.

[Root Beer]

But lots of agility people with other breeds would argue the exact same thing. Kelpies are becoming the "new" border collie locally - they are incredibly agile, remarkably focused, particularly intelligent canine sports partners. Does that make them border collies too?

 

If both parents of the Kelpie in question were Border Collies, then yes. Of course, that's not the case.

 

I am not saying that those qualities make the dog a Border Collie. I am saying that those are some of the reasons (not all) why the Border Collie remains distinct from "just a dog".

 

It was not meant to be a comprehensive statement, just an example.

[Shoofly]

I am not saying that those qualities make the dog a Border Collie. I am saying that those are some of the reasons (not all) why the Border Collie remains distinct from "just a dog"

 

No, the only thing that distinguishes a border collie from "just a dog", is what it can do with stock - the original purpose of the breed, and the foundation and standard on which the breed was created. How is this so hard to understand?

[MrSnappy]

I would prefer to see people give good homes to working bred puppies than go to a rescue and get a dog of unknown parentage. I know some nice pets come out of rescues but i'd prefer to see working dog breeders supported and those puppies getting the good homes they need.

 

That makes sense. We should produce more dogs than supply demands, and rescues should be killed in shelters because the lives you intend to produce are more important than the ones already fighting out here in the real world.

 

*rolls eyes*

 

This would definitely be an area where I will argue with you until I'm purple. The reality is, lots of "your" working bred dogs do end up in "my" rescue, papers or not. If "you" are having trouble finding good homes for "your" working bred pups, perhaps "you" are putting too many of them on this earth. Rescue is not the problem, and while I think this takes the conversation in a whole new direction that it doesn't need to go, I think that's one of the coldest things I have ever read on these boards. And I'm an effin' snowman.

 

These dogs are already here and begging for homes. If someone needs a nice companion or sports partner, rescue is a good a place as any to get one, and encouraging people to forgo those dogs in favour of a purpose bred pup is pretty cold, IMO.

 

I am not saying that those qualities make the dog a Border Collie. I am saying that those are some of the reasons (not all) why the Border Collie remains distinct from "just a dog".

 

But this is not a discussion about what differentiates a border collie from "just a dog" (which, btw, a border collie is - just a dog. It's simply a specific *kind* of dog. And what is being discussed is what kind of dog is it, and what defines the border collie).

 

RDM