Sport Collies

[jdarling]

OK, this might turn off some potential sport or pet placements ...

 

Yup ... and that's when they end up going to other "sport" breeders ... and they now have a case for such breedings because the working stockdog people won't sell them registered dogs. Could you hear it now? LOL. "Any excuse'll do," unfortunately.

[Shetlander]

Yup ... and that's when they end up going to other "sport" breeders ... and they now have a case for such breedings because the working stockdog people won't sell them registered dogs. Could you hear it now? LOL. "Any excuse'll do," unfortunately.

 

Ok, but then if a sports person is set on a puppy for whatever reason and won't go through rescue, and there aren't enough good working bred pups to be sold to them, then where should they go? Other than to rescue or a different breed?

 

It's hypothetical for me. I don't like raising puppies and do plan on going to Rescue for my next Border Collie.

 

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe as long as you get an ILP or whatever the AKC is calling it now, you can still enter in all competitions with your dog who didn't come with papers.

[Lenajo]

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe as long as you get an ILP or whatever the AKC is calling it now, you can still enter in all competitions with your dog who didn't come with papers.

 

Everything but FCI events/World Team. And that's very few dogs and handlers, so not really a reality for most agility people.

[SoloRiver]

Yup ... and that's when they end up going to other "sport" breeders ... and they now have a case for such breedings because the working stockdog people won't sell them registered dogs. Could you hear it now? LOL. "Any excuse'll do," unfortunately.

 

So, then it's better to just throw up your hands in defeat and follow the practices of the lowest common denominator?

[SoloRiver]

Everything but FCI events/World Team. And that's very few dogs and handlers, so not really a reality for most agility people.

 

And yet there are so many competitors out there deluded enough to think they might make the World Team, so they insist on having an AKC-registerable dog. It's so stupid it makes me want to pull my hair out.

[jdarling]

So, then it's better to just throw up your hands in defeat and follow the practices of the lowest common denominator?

 

Hmmm ... I looked back in my response to see where I said that, but I didn't find it. I must be cracking up or something. I don't think that would be the answer any more than trying to "educate" the big hats into creating contracts and such for their puppy buyers to sign. I don't know what the answer is. If I did, I promise, you'd be the first to know.

 

I can tell you, though ... the sport fanatics are going to breed. That's a given. There is nothing anyone can do to change that. That being the case, I would rather have them breeding dogs that came directly from reputable working breeders than those that haven't seen stock in 5 generations, rather than alienating them from good working dogs so they turn to all the rest of the crap that we all know is out there.

[Rave]

I completely agree--I think so-called "designer" breeds for sports are a good thing for the working dog gene pool. Unfortunately, these kinds of crosses are far more common in flyball than in the more popular sport of agility, where the "pure-bred" ideology of organizations like the AKC make it very difficult for mixed-breed dogs to actually compete. And since the vast majority of agility competitions seem to be AKC-sponsored (and certainly for those aspiring to the "world team", the AKC is the organization of record for that), then there is little incentive to promote, breed or sell these other dogs among those who are producing for the sport market. (ETA: not to say I advocate this over rescue--I don't necessarily)

 

eh? AKC is not the "vast majority of agility competitions" and one does not need a purebred dog to compete on the USDAA world team last I checked (although I could be mistaken, since I have no aspirations of doing that). I've competed in agility with two mixed breeds and never once found it difficult in any way, except for financially to do all the trials we wanted.

[Rave]

Oh, and we might be able to educate those trialing stockdog people to not sell to sport homes

 

Woah! bad idea! There are people out there who recognize the Border Collie for what it should be and support working breeders, myself being one. I'll never trial ACK, I'll never breed. I realize I may be a minority, but that's no reason to turn off stockdog breeders from selling me a pup.

 

Also, there are those of us out there trying to sway and educate the sports folks into "seeing the light". So why turn those people away too? The vast majority of sports folks are NOT out there breeding (thankfully). And the established sports breeders are going to breed regardless. So that idea really accomplishes nothing positive that I see.

[jdarling]

Rave, there was a tone of sarcasm to it, as I don't think doing that is even possible, no less recommended. I suppose I should have italicized "might"

[Rosanne]

I know you have moved on from this topic, but I figured I might as well throw out a view from the other side.

 

I am a sports person. Pure and simple. I'm not on these boards any more because after much thought and research I found that my personal philsophy did not mesh with that of the boards. I do read here once in a while for interesting health topics or just interesting border collie stories (or drama!). Most of you will disagree with some of what I'm going to say. Go ahead. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I do believe those of you on this board are the guardians of the working stock dog and I think that is no small task. I have a lot of respect for those who work the dogs as they were originally intended, and work hard to maintain that level of talent.

 

However. I am a sports person. I was raised a sports person. I began doing agility when I could still walk under the dogwalk without hitting my head. I have been competing and training in agility since 1992 - for 16 years. That is the majority of my lifetime. I eat breathe and sometimes dream agility. So I am one of those who got the dog FOR the sport. Now, my dogs do NOT live in crates 24/7. They eat great food, they sleep on my bed and my couch. They get out to run and play once a day at least. I love them. They live good doggy lives. I only crate them when they're young and can't be trusted loose, and when we're traveling. I do not "go through dogs" although I am beginning to collect quite a few. I re-homed one dog, once. She was 7 years old, and it was a temporary "vacation" that turned into a permament retirement home. I keep in touch.

 

Anyway, here are the reasons that I and people I know go to sports breedings. Keep in mind I am a very serious competitor, not just a "for fun" person. I don't just pretend to be a World Team hopeful, I really am. I placed in USDAA National Finals the last 2 years running, and already won my way into the Finals this year as well.

This is what I and my closest agility friends look for in a dog:

Health. Not just parents' OFA, but parents' siblings, grand-parents, pups from previous litters. If there is dysplasia, then how much? How many OFA Fairs? Excellents? How about Pennhip? I prefer to see a dog with both scores, if possible. I will not take a puppy from a parent who OFA'd Good but has no siblings with hip scores. Both of my first 2 dogs were dysplastic and I like to reduce the chances of that happening again. Sure, it's always possible that a dog whose parents are OFA Good, whose parents' siblings are all Fair-Excellent, and whose grandparents are all good too, will have a dysplastic pup. But its less likely than a total unknown, or one with known dysplasia in the lines.

Epilepsy: Full sibling of either parent seizes? Won't touch it. Half-sibling? maybe. . .depending on how many other relative are out there and healthy and over 4 years old. CEA Testing - I'd accept one parent if it was Normal.

I won't take a s/n contract puppy. If I put 5 years of hard work into a dog, and it is the Best Agility Dog Ever, and all its siblings are healthy, I will probably want to breed it.

 

Structure: Prefer a dog who is long and lean without being weak. Good front structure is important to jumping, as a shorter neck that is low set can get a dog into trouble on takeoff. Compensating for that can throw the rear end out of alignment. Good moderate rear angulation gives you acceleration and speed. Flexibility is important for tight turns and the ability to accelerate and decelerate quickly. A dog who is too small will have trouble jumping the jumps. A dog that is too tall will have trouble going full speed between them.

 

Temperament/Drive: Most people I know absolutely do NOT want a dog that is over-the-top drive level. It's a pain in the ass to deal with and we all live in houses too. I only know ONE person who kennels her dogs all the time. And I know a lot of people. Most of us want dogs who flop on the couch at home but when you go outside with a toy they turn ON and want to work/play with you. Softness/Hardness level is very important as well, a dog that is too soft becomes unwilling to keep trying behaviors for fear of being wrong. A soft dog like that can be difficult to get to run full speed because of fear of making mistakes (even if you aren't a hard trainer, a soft "no" can be enough to upset some dogs). A dog that is too hard will keep making the same mistake over and over and not care as long as he's enjoying himself.

 

A dog with too much eye or stickiness tends to get stuck on contact behaviors and is hard to "free up" and get moving properly. A dog who wants to outrun people makes it hard to run down straight lines of jumps as their tendency is always to move away from the handler in a circular pattern (don't laugh, it's true, I've seen it a lot - keep in mind I'm not making claims about the way these dogs would actually be on stock). Also the dog should be smart enough to problem solve, but not so forward-thinking that it tries to guess the course before being given direction at speed.

 

I know some strict working breeders who produce fantastic agility dogs. But even the ones I really like I know have close relatives with bad hips or not-so-great temperament in some way or another (too soft, etc). I also know plenty of sports breeders who I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole because of health problems in their lines too. So don't think I'm only saying "working people don't do health checks". I am saying "sports people have trouble finding working people who do health checks, keep track of the health and temperament of the puppies they've produced, and are willing to sell unspeutered to sports people" and hopefully the parents are at least close to all the criteria above.

 

Again, I don't expect you guys to agree with any of this, but since you asked, here are the reasons we go to sports breeders. Why do we like working lines mixed in? Well because we know that the brains come from the working dogs. And the ranginess in structure is often found there too. Fluffy square dogs don't really cut it at the top levels most of the time, at least not here in the Northeast (we have some of the absolute biggest trials).

 

Please keep in mind this post is in response to the Original Poster's question. It probably justifies nothing to most of you. But plain and simple here are the reasons, and what we look for.

I can think of very very few working breeders who produce the type of dog we want, and keep track of all the health of close relatives.

I will say I agree that its silly when sports breeders claim they are producing "working" dogs. I don't agree with them advertising that at all. If you breed for agility, then say that. If you are producing fast twitch Flyball beasts, then say that.

[Denise Wall]

Thanks, Rosanne, for your view as a top agility competitor. Fair enough.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

>>>>I am a sports person. Pure and simple. I'm not on these boards any more because after much thought and research I found that my personal philsophy did not mesh with that of the boards. I do read here once in a while for interesting health topics or just interesting border collie stories (or drama!). Most of you will disagree with some of what I'm going to say. Go ahead. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion<<<<

 

Rosanne,

 

Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion and you by far, have the only one who has given a detailed list of what they look for in a dog.

 

I appreciate that you posted your views. It gives everyone a better insight to the agility world. I do hope you keep posting...even though we all do not agree, we still can be friends.

 

Some of my good friends do agility. We are still good friends. It's all about how you approach it. They also do herding with me. Agility is their first love. Will I toss our friendship away because they love agility?

 

No I won't toss away our friendship because they love agility. They were first at my door after the surgery taking care of my livestock and dogs. That is true friendship.

 

You love your dogs. You are passionate about agility. We can agree to disagree.

 

What I have an issue is people who breed little after litter for $$, without breeding for working ability etc....my views are well known.

 

Diane

[Aquarius89]

You breed dogs to better their breeds. You don't breed for sport dogs. Sport dogs are trained. IMO, it's lazy people who want to buy "sports" dogs. They don't want to bother having to build any tug drive. To me, that is half the fun of dog sports.

 

And hey... genetics is only 10%.

[PSmitty]

I'm curious about something Rosanne mentioned, and she's not the only one I've heard it from, of course. But, how can you tell with an 8-9 week old puppy if they are going to end up with the structure, drive, temperament, not too much eye/stickiness, etc, that the strictly sport people are looking for?

[airbear]

I don't get how a dog can be sticky whilst navigating a piece of wooden equipment. But Roseanne certainly isn't the only one from whom I've heard this, so maybe I'm missing something. Lou has quite a bit of eye when working stock, but he certainly doesn't demonstrate that while performing the a-frame. His cousin, Phoenix, has about the fastest contacts I've seen around here, and she has right much eye when working sheep.

 

I *do* agree that pressure-sensitive dogs can be kicked out too far by the arm movements one uses to signal jumps, crosses, etc. but you should be able to tweak your handling so that you don't blow your dog out of the water with a "get out" cue.

 

So don't think I'm only saying "working people don't do health checks". I am saying "sports people have trouble finding working people who do health checks, keep track of the health and temperament of the puppies they've produced, and are willing to sell unspeutered to sports people" and hopefully the parents are at least close to all the criteria above.

I think this is the crux of it, and she articulated it very well. Sports people have very specific terms of reference, just as working folks do, and I think it's human nature to go with what you know.

[Cynthia P]

What i found a little enlightening in the post from Roseanne was the mention of the structure. The front, the low neck, angulation etc. I've been doing stock dogs/BCs, USBCHA trialling and I don't ever hear a top hand saying...wow i love his front..

 

We do say, a lot of eye...i like the way he moves, something not quite right about the back end, I love prick ears, geeze he is a horse...etc;

 

My agility friends spend a lot (I MEAN A LOT) analyzing the structure of a dog; what makes a dog a better jumper etc. For sports breeding i'm sure this important..and i am quite amazed at the analysis they do come up with.

 

What i look for is dogs that i like the way they work, i like the work ethic, they can work for many hours a day; I do figure (and perhaps incorrectly) that a dog that can work all day long has correct structure...whether or not I like his front or angulation or if he has had his hips Penn Hip'd; I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't buy a dog out of a line that had poor work ethic, or broke down early. I'm carrying on...I think we look for attributes of a dog that we think will make a good stock dog...and not necessarily if all of the health checks have been done. If I liked the way a dog worked, the way the parents, siblings, and grandparents worked ( and we discuss lineage ad nasium sometimes,) I would buy a puppy from it whether or not it had been CERFed' DNA'd, Penn Hip'd, OFA'd, Thyroid'd, etc....

 

Bad working dogs find their way out of the gene pool...i hope...

 

When I look at BCs that are flashy or different colors...i think, maybe the agility people or flyball people would pay big money for these...My Bad...

 

Cynthia

[SoloRiver]

I too appreciate Rosanne's frankness but I am saddened by this line:

I won't take a s/n contract puppy. If I put 5 years of hard work into a dog, and it is the Best Agility Dog Ever, and all its siblings are healthy, I will probably want to breed it.

 

Mostly because it represents a 180 from how she used to feel when she posted here more regularly.

 

If it is true that sports breeders are selecting for, and getting, a consistent phenotype, then they should probably call them something else. I like Sport Collie, since it reflects both purpose and heritage, but am open to other suggestions.

[Laurae]

Regarding Paula's question about what you can tell from an eight-week-old pup, I wonder that, too. Taz is nothing like he was as a baby. For instance, when Taz was a baby puppy, he was a roly-poly chubalub.

Then he was gangly (and I do mean gangly) for the next couple of years. Now he's finally filled out some and looks great, but he is still very long and lean. His breeder, who has bred several of his relatives, knows his lines very well and once said she never expected him to have the structure he has based on what he looked like as a baby.

Taz now:

 

Temperament-wise, he was the most forward of his litter, and I was afraid he'd be too hot for me to handle as a novice learning to herd sheep. I also feared he'd challenge Sophie for alpha status. But as an adult, he is very much a beta/omega dog. He just does not seem to care very much about asserting himself and often prefers to go off and do his own thing. He gets along with everyone (though he's clearly not a fan of Craig, who bites him on the butt all the time--and he is amazingly tolerant of that). He is actually a pretty soft dog, though he is pushy on stock and always willing to keep trying at whatever he is asked to do.

 

I'm obviously not the most experienced dog person out there, but Taz's breeder is pretty experienced, and both of us were (very pleasantly) surprised by Taz's adult structure and temperament, given what he showed us as a baby puppy.

[CLW1]

I too appreciate Rosanne's frankness but I am saddened by this line:

Mostly because it represents a 180 from how she used to feel when she posted here more regularly.

 

It would seem that she stopped posting at about the same time she decided to breed her agility dog.

[Lenajo]

Boy... do times and opinions change. Guess those 1k+ pups eventually get them all.

 

 

I too appreciate Rosanne's frankness but I am saddened by this line:

Mostly because it represents a 180 from how she used to feel when she posted here more regularly.

 

If it is true that sports breeders are selecting for, and getting, a consistent phenotype, then they should probably call them something else. I like Sport Collie, since it reflects both purpose and heritage, but am open to other suggestions.

[MrSnappy]

I don't get how a dog can be sticky whilst navigating a piece of wooden equipment. But Roseanne certainly isn't the only one from whom I've heard this, so maybe I'm missing something.

 

Because they are "herding" the equipment and/or "balancing to" the equipment.

 

It *must* be true, because beagle owners who buy a border collie for agility and then can't handle a fast dog, complain about these traits on the BARK. And doG knows they are the experts.

 

Phoenix is a great dog because she has a good handler, who does things like one-jump exercises in the morning before breakfast. Piper is a mediocre dog because she has a mediocre handler who does things like hit the "snooze" button 5 times before breakfast.

 

;-)

 

Phoenix also HATES Tweed. I know this has nothing to do with the conversation, it's just vastly amusing to me. Poor Tweed.

 

RDM

[Shetlander]

And hey... genetics is only 10%.

 

Where do you get that? If that was true, why the concern and debate about how Border Collies are bred? Personally, I feel that genetics is incredibly important - the clay from which we all work.

 

But, how can you tell with an 8-9 week old puppy if they are going to end up with the structure, drive, temperament, not too much eye/stickiness, etc, that the strictly sport people are looking for?

 

I've heard that there is a certain age (6 weeks? 8 weeks?) where you get a really good idea of what a puppy will grow up to look like as far as proportions. But I'm not a breeder nor do I spend a lot of time obsessing over puppies. That's just something I remember coming across when I was in the process of getting Quinn. As far as drive and temperament, I do think you can tell quite a bit when the puppy is about 7- 8 weeks old through testing and observation. Not 100% but a good deal. This applies to temperament, not working ability.

 

Quinn's breeder really did seem to know the dogs she turns out and when he was 7 weeks old, she described the kind of dog he'd be in a fair amount of detail almost to a T. The only thing she seemed off base about was that she said he'd be Velcro and he's always been an affectionate, but very independent fellow. However, the past couple months since turning three years old, I've noticed more inclination to stick by my side, for instance seeming more unhappy (to me and to my coworkers) when I leave him behind in the front office to go to meetings. Still not Velcro, but maybe she wasn't as far off on that one as I thought.

 

I've never heard a puppy described has having too much eye or stickiness, though.

[tualizzy]

It *must* be true, because beagle owners who buy a border collie for agility and then can't handle a fast dog, complain about these traits on the BARK. And doG knows they are the experts.

 

Isn't everyone on the BARK an expert?

[Rosanne]

Yes I bred my dog. Once. And I made not one iota of money off of it. The bitch owner lost money. We bred them and each took a puppy. The amount charged to buyers was certainly less than $1000.

 

Do not ask a question and then mock one who actually answered it in a straightforward manner.

 

When I was more active on this board, you may have noticed I did not ever jump into the "everybody needs a rescue or a working dog" arguments. I left the breeding arguments to those who are truly the core of the board. I respected the Sticky. After much thought and reflection on myself, my career, and my philosophy on life, I could not personally agree that all agility dogs should be supplied by working breeders and rescues. I think casual participants should certainly look to rescue. I, personally, have found that few working breeders are willing to divulge much health information about relatives of their dogs, or even the health of pups they have bred. You have to know somebody who knows somebody to get the info.

 

As far as structure, believe it or not LOTS can be told about a dog's structure at 8 weeks. This has been known for some time in conformation and sports circles. The angles and overal proprotions of a pup at 8 weeks is pretty closely approximated by the dog it becomes at 2 years.

 

As I said, you all believe what you believe. And I certainly will neve be a breeder-for-profit. But will I breed my own dogs, FOR MYSELF, in the future? Probably, yes. If they continue to meet all the criteria I mentioned previously.

[Rosanne]

A dog who is called "sticky" coming down the contact is the creeper. The one who knows where the target is, knows he should go to it, but slows down and eyeballs it while slowly walking down the plank. I have no idea if these are the same dogs who get sticky on sheep, but I suspect they may be.

 

As far as the outrun around the jumps, I'm not speaking of dogs who fly out with an arm motion. I'm a little beyond random arm movements. I'm speaking of situations where the handler runs in a straight line, but the BC's instinct isn't to run in a parallel straight line, but rather to curve out away. BC's in my experience tend to naturally look out away from the handler, rather than in a straight line, much more than other breeds.

 

ETA: the stickiness can certainly be a training issue. Probably mostly. But some dogs just seem more prone to it than others. My dogs don't stick. They run.

 

Also I will be away at an agility trial all weekend so it will quickly become pointless and in poor taste to bash away. I do NOT advocate all agility people breeding willy-nilly. I certainly do NOT think working dogs are "crazy" or that no working breeders do health checks. On the contrary, I think that most of them do all they can, it's just the nature of the work and the lifestyle that prevents the health tracking, for the most part. I actually agree that most sports breeders are not high-quality, and I have yet to come across a line of merles I really liked (and yes I used to own one). And I certainly would never, ever try to sell a sports-bred pup as "working" bred or suitable for anything but basic hobby herding.