Maralynn Posted July 31, 2008 Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 Kipp is dog agressive when he gets wound up - which is most of the time he sees another dog. It's like he gets all amped up and has to have an outlet for it. And it has me frustrated At home he is sweet submissive and relaxed. He and Missy get along wonderfully. But go somewhere near other dogs and he just gets wound up tighter and tighter. For the life of me I can't seem to get him to just relax a little. I've tried correcting him, I've tried using a clicker, I've tried re-directing, I've tried working him with other dogs in the far background. But Kipp always gets like "oh, there a dog, I've got to do something". If I could just get him to relax a little I'd have something to build on, but I'm at a loss of how to do it. I've tried watching my body language and I honestly don't think I'm tensing up and he's sensing it. What am I missing here? What else could I try? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted July 31, 2008 Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 Meds? or at least DAP to help relax him? I've been there with Sophie. CC/D worked for us, feeding chicken/ham/cheese/hot dogs beginning at a distance and moving forward slowly when she was ready (usually outside Petsmart or places like that), and we were kinda successful, but we've always lived in the city so it was never possible to avoid all triggers until she could handle them. I got her to an acceptable level of not behaving like an idiot around other dogs, and she has mellowed a bit with age. She's still sometimes a spitfire on leash, though. I know I should spend a bit more time working with her again, now that we're in the burbs and I can control her proximity to other dogs a bit better, but she's 8 now and so much better than she was...I guess I lack the motivation to try to finish the job, so to speak. Maybe I'll try again when it stops being so flippin hot. I guess in all seriousness with Kipp I'd recommend truly following a step-by-step, regimented CC/D program and try not to sabotage it by getting closer to other dogs than the distance he's currently comfortable with while you're working on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted July 31, 2008 Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 Without knowing exactly how you've tried the various methods, it's hard to say what you might be missing. For clicker training and redirecting, the main thing I can think of is the need to move at very small steps, not proceeding until you have a certain level of success. And making sure not to let the dog go over threshold, which can be pretty laborious to work through. Closing the distance can take a very long time, during which you need to avoid the dog being in situations you can't control. Finding the right rewards is also crucial for when the dog is calm enough to be operant about things. Personally, I haven't found correction to be very helpful for this kind of aggression. With one of my dogs, it made things much worse (a prong collar -- which I've also heard others say about their aggressive dogs). Medication is something to consider. Have you consulted with a behaviorist or trainer? Quinn has a fantastic holistic vet up in Grand Rapids whose success with his IBD has been amazing. She has really made me look at health/behavioral issues with new eyes. I don't know if something like that would be a possible answer for your pup, but just a thought. Whatever works for the dog in question. That is my motto! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyler Posted July 31, 2008 Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 I have four dogs and Koda gets all wound up too. I was deeply worried about his increasing behavior and then started working with a friend and her dogs. None of the methods you described worked a lick with Koda either. She has a very good alpha male and we just decided to let them be together off leash. It took about a 5 second scrap (all noise of course) and Koda (now nine months) was put in his place. Since then Koda has been 95% better with other dogs. He then met all of her other dogs (5) off leash and mostly nothing at all resulted from it - just a few sneers. He didnt want them all over him but he was out racing for frisbees and playing chase with all of them - and having a blast. My suggestion is to get them in an area without a leash with a good alpha dog. Its most likely due to him not understanding pack order and how to interact with other dogs. Keep in mind, I have FOUR dogs as well but its not the same as dogs outside your pack. Sometimes you just have to throw them into the pond to learn how to swim. One thing to keep in mind is your dogs possesivenss of you. Koda's major issue is not aggression but him protecting me. This is exactly the same issue that I had when my late Skyler was young. Skyler was like that to both dogs and people. He figured out that it was okay eventually and was as friendly as your common golden for the remainder of his life. If you are with your pup and the other dog approaches back away from your dog. Let him know that if when another dog comes up you back away and there is nothing to protect. Koda will play wonderfully but still sneers sometimes if he is next to me. He's getting better by leaps and bounds but I would venture to guess this is your problem as well. Good luck, Ryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted July 31, 2008 Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 That is tricky! I had some success with the slow introduction thing: seeing dogs only at a distance, then closer, etc., until he relaxed. Dogs can get pretty darned close to Buddy now with no reaction. However, it still doesn't mean he can be calm when a random large dog charges us in the park. There is something to be said for letting the dogs have that brief scrap to sort out their relationship. My dog wants to tell other dogs to get out of his face. In most cases when he's gone ahead and done that, everything has been fine afterwards: the other dogs have given him wide berth until he got comfortable with him, and walks could proceed peacefully ever after. There have been a couple notable exceptions, though, where the other dog decided to beat Buddy down rather than leave him alone, and for that reason I try not to let him get into meeting-fights. But that produces the unnatural situation in which I am leashing him and essentially forcing him into a head-on meeting with extended eye contact, which frequently produces much more stress than a normal meeting. It's a Catch-22. One thing that mostly works for me has been training a strong "leave it" command. If Buddy is meeting another dog and I see his lips start to tense up (tight commissure), I say, "leave it" in my deep voice, and he actually will relax his lips and let go the incipient snarl. If the other dog gives him a little space then, we can have a successful meeting. This only works if I catch him in the very early stages of starting to snarl - if he's already over his threshold, there isn't much I can do. He drives the other dog away, usually with success. The other owners don't like it much. ::Sigh:: Good luck! Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted July 31, 2008 Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 Kipp is dog agressive when he gets wound up - which is most of the time he sees another dog. It's like he gets all amped up and has to have an outlet for it. And it has me frustrated At home he is sweet submissive and relaxed. He and Missy get along wonderfully. But go somewhere near other dogs and he just gets wound up tighter and tighter. For the life of me I can't seem to get him to just relax a little. I've tried correcting him, I've tried using a clicker, I've tried re-directing, I've tried working him with other dogs in the far background. But Kipp always gets like "oh, there a dog, I've got to do something". If I could just get him to relax a little I'd have something to build on, but I'm at a loss of how to do it. I've tried watching my body language and I honestly don't think I'm tensing up and he's sensing it. What am I missing here? What else could I try? Have you tried Control Unleashed? I don't mean pieces of it, but the entire program? If not, I highly recommend that you give it a shot. Especially since you are looking to teach him how to relax a little, and to change that response to the trigger (other dogs) from "there's a dog, I've got to do something" to "there's a dog, I can keep my wits about me". It's worth a try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted July 31, 2008 Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 Have you ever had him walk up to a dead dog calm dog and seen what he would do? Some dogs just get.so.excited. that they cannot think. Kipp is dog agressive when he gets wound up - which is most of the time he sees another dog. It's like he gets all amped up and has to have an outlet for it. And it has me frustrated At home he is sweet submissive and relaxed. He and Missy get along wonderfully. But go somewhere near other dogs and he just gets wound up tighter and tighter. For the life of me I can't seem to get him to just relax a little. I've tried correcting him, I've tried using a clicker, I've tried re-directing, I've tried working him with other dogs in the far background. But Kipp always gets like "oh, there a dog, I've got to do something". If I could just get him to relax a little I'd have something to build on, but I'm at a loss of how to do it. I've tried watching my body language and I honestly don't think I'm tensing up and he's sensing it. What am I missing here? What else could I try? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted August 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 Thanks for the replies and suggestions. I'm finally setting back at my computer after a long day. Now I'm wondering if I'm still trying to move to fast with him (it's frustrating because I've been working on it over a year now). I have limited access to other dogs that I can work him around. I liked the one trainer I did try, but she was not alot of help with the aggression part. I really don't have the money for a behaviorist at this point - if it was something I couldn't manage or it was affecting day to day life I'd be trying it, but it's more just annoying and frustrating for me. At home he is great and at SAR training he is managable. Oddly enough he's even passed the dog aggression test for SAR - I tied him out and left him and someone walked past with a neutral dog and he just stood there. I've seen the DAP plug ins, but does it come as a collar or something like that? Have you tried Control Unleashed? I don't mean pieces of it, but the entire program? If not, I highly recommend that you give it a shot. Especially since you are looking to teach him how to relax a little, and to change that response to the trigger (other dogs) from "there's a dog, I've got to do something" to "there's a dog, I can keep my wits about me". It's worth a try I have seriously thought about trying CU. I don't know much about it, but it sounds interesting. I've come close to buying the book a couple times, but wasn't sure how much it would help. I guess I'll order it and see. Have you ever had him walk up to a dead dog calm dog and seen what he would do? Yup. There is a lab on my SAR team that is mellow and bomb proof (the dog took a nap on a helicopter ride!). Kipp can still get like dog! dog! dog! around him. I am also starting to work on a "watch" (look at me) command and will practice it often around the distractions I have at home . Maybe that will help some, too The joys of working through issues. I thought after all Missy had to offer, Kipp would be a breeze. Oh well, at least I'm learning things in the "work through issues" process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 I have seriously thought about trying CU. I don't know much about it, but it sounds interesting. I've come close to buying the book a couple times, but wasn't sure how much it would help. I guess I'll order it and see. I used to do "watch me" until I read CU and started "Look at That". It is very liberating to completely ditch "watch me" and get far better results! I think that the mat work, "Look at That", and "There's a Dog in Your Face" will be really helpful based on what you said. CU takes desensitization and counter conditioning to a new level in a very surprising way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted August 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 I used to do "watch me" until I read CU and started "Look at That". It is very liberating to completely ditch "watch me" and get far better results! Now you've got me very interested! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 I've been there with Sophie. CC/D worked for us, feeding chicken/ham/cheese/hot dogs beginning at a distance and moving forward slowly when she was ready (usually outside Petsmart or places like that), and we were kinda successful, but we've always lived in the city so it was never possible to avoid all triggers until she could handle them. I got her to an acceptable level of not behaving like an idiot around other dogs, and she has mellowed a bit with age. She's still sometimes a spitfire on leash, though. I know I should spend a bit more time working with her again, now that we're in the burbs and I can control her proximity to other dogs a bit better, but she's 8 now and so much better than she was...I guess I lack the motivation to try to finish the job, so to speak. I have the same problem (and Solo is just a tad older than Sophie is, turned 9 in May). Solo is very, very good at ignoring dogs in the environment and really only has problems when they approach him directly, and I think this is entirely due to the fact that we lived in the middle of two major cities and had no choice but to encounter strange dogs dozens of times a day. On the one hand, it was impossible to totally control the environment but on the other hand, every potty trip was a socialization exercise and he got lots and lots of practice and lots of opportunities to become desensitized. I doubt he'd have progressed nearly as far if we'd lived in the burbs the whole time. But now that we do? I lack the motivation because it's so damn easy to just control the environment. Solo doesn't have to see other dogs if he doesn't want to, and there's enough open space around here that we can certainly find plenty of avenues for leaving our home turf and enjoying the great outdoors without being molested by strangers. I realized a long time ago that Solo was never going to be perfect around other dogs, and it was a big relief to allow myself to feel that way, and to stop beating myself up all the time. Maybe I copped out, maybe he could be perfect around other dogs, but it isn't worth the effort and stress to either him or me when it's so easy to just protect him now, especially since he was never really dangerous to begin with, just scary-looking. He's earned the backyard, with his own personal green patch and six-foot privacy fence. He's had enough freaking socialization to last a lifetime! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 I realized a long time ago that Solo was never going to be perfect around other dogs, and it was a big relief to allow myself to feel that way, and to stop beating myself up all the time. Maybe I copped out, maybe he could be perfect around other dogs, but it isn't worth the effort and stress... Interesting little side-note. I sometimes wonder if I've just gotten my dog to "manageable" when he could be "normal." As in, maybe I could get him to a point where I wouldn't have to manage his meetings with other dogs, and could trust him to just meet nicely. We're almost there with humans: Buddy will approach most strangers now with a relaxed body and an expectant, happy face, hoping for treats. The reaction stuff is almost worn off. But I've been able to ensure that not a single human he interacts with has been too loud, erratic, or scary-acting. I can't promise the same thing with the dogs he meets: some are rude, some are tense, some are ready to fight. I definitely agree with the body-blocking and sight-blocking advice. My dog is so "vision" oriented that if I cover his eyes when he's being reactive, he stops barking. I spent a lot of time covering his eyes when he first came home. Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 Interesting little side-note. I sometimes wonder if I've just gotten my dog to "manageable" when he could be "normal." As in, maybe I could get him to a point where I wouldn't have to manage his meetings with other dogs, and could trust him to just meet nicely. I'm not suggesting we aim low for our dogs, but sometimes we just need to accept that while we may modify behaviors, they'll always be who they are. That doesn't mean they can be helped and more "normalized," but it may mean a certain amount of management for the rest of their lives. My Lhasa is not a big fan of strange dogs and often is not thrilled to meet strange people. He usually behaves like an angel (always to my surprise -- I totally expect the worst from him ), but I'm very careful in those situations. I do not let children approach him at all. In fact, I also tell strange adults to just ignore him despite his deceiving teddy bear appearance. And in return for my keeping that space around him, he is more than happy to keep focused on me and not the annoying people or dogs. I'll never completely trust him but I do expect him to behave himself while taking responsibility for managing the environment to the best of my ability. My Sheltie finds many sights alarming on our walks (thank goodness for my friendly Border Collie --I was starting to develop a complex!). The techniques in Click to Calm by Emma Parsons worked wonders for her. I had used many of the same techniques for the Lhasa. So if I ran into a similar problem again, I'd probably go that route because it's been so successful for me. Click to Calm teaches a "watch me" rather than CU's "Look at that." I know tons of people adore CU. Personally, I could never get into it but that may be because 1. I wasn't having any significant issues when I bought the book and 2. I found the book difficult to read because it is laid out as though you are teaching a class, IIRC. But it certainly has lots of good reviews and success stories! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 Click to Calm teaches a "watch me" rather than CU's "Look at that." Kinda sorta. She does do "watch me", but there is also almost a version of "Look at That" in Click to Calm! Long before CU came out, I used Click to Calm with Speedy. Based on the techniques that Emma Parsons put forth, I spent a lot of time with Speedy set up on the bench outside our training building clicking/treating him for being calm as he watched other dogs and people pass by at a distance with which he was comfortable. It wasn't exactly Look at That - the setup was a bit different, but it definitely went one step further than "watch me". He was learning to take in the sight of other dogs and people and to be able to keep a grip on himself as he did so. That was a really important piece of his rehab. Click to Calm helped Speedy a lot, too, and I am very glad it was out when he was at his "worst". But the mat work and LAT has taken him to a whole new level. Dog in Your Face would have helped him a lot way back when, also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angie H Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 Kipp is dog agressive when he gets wound up - which is most of the time he sees another dog. It's like he gets all amped up and has to have an outlet for it. And it has me frustrated At home he is sweet submissive and relaxed. He and Missy get along wonderfully. But go somewhere near other dogs and he just gets wound up tighter and tighter. For the life of me I can't seem to get him to just relax a little. I've tried correcting him, I've tried using a clicker, I've tried re-directing, I've tried working him with other dogs in the far background. But Kipp always gets like "oh, there a dog, I've got to do something". If I could just get him to relax a little I'd have something to build on, but I'm at a loss of how to do it. I've tried watching my body language and I honestly don't think I'm tensing up and he's sensing it. What am I missing here? What else could I try? Does Kipp work sheep? Just curious because often times that will give a BC so much self confidence and satisfaction that they become "a different dog". Just a thought.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4pack Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 "Kipp is dog agressive when he gets wound up - which is most of the time he sees another dog. It's like he gets all amped up and has to have an outlet for it. And it has me frustrated At home he is sweet submissive and relaxed. He and Missy get along wonderfully. But go somewhere near other dogs and he just gets wound up tighter and tighter. For the life of me I can't seem to get him to just relax a little. " --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Correct me if I am wrong, but it sure sounds like Kipp is overthreshold before you think he is... that the distance needs to be waaay further back for DS/CC to be effective... Have you looked at some of the articles on http://www.aggressivebehaviorsindogs.com ? Have you tried slowly things down/ breaking things down into smaller steps? Tried starting with Open Bar/Closed Bar ? Another thing to try is Dr. Karen Overall's Relaxation Protocol... And, of course, the 'Look at that' which has been recommended... The DS/CC will help but many folks have a tendency to rush the process and not break it down into small enough steps.... Just some more thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 Oddly enough he's even passed the dog aggression test for SAR - I tied him out and left him and someone walked past with a neutral dog and he just stood there. This suggests that part of the dynamic is definitely you. That's not a criticism - even though you think you are not contributing to it, you're still part of the trigger for the dog. Which makes sense ... because every time he goes apeshit around another dog, you are there. So now those things are connected for him. It was the case with Briggs as well. He was much better (though not great still) with other dogs when I was not present. RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4pack Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 Hmmm, maybe someone experienced with CAT might be the way to go.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted August 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 This suggests that part of the dynamic is definitely you. That's not a criticism - even though you think you are not contributing to it, you're still part of the trigger for the dog. Which makes sense ... because every time he goes apeshit around another dog, you are there. So now those things are connected for him. Yeah, I kinda figured I was part of the picture, even though I'm not sure how. Dents my ego a bit, but I can live with that... Any hints on working with that? I do have other dog savvy people and neutral dogs available once a week. I could be totally out of the picture and have someone else work with him if you think that would help. Does Kipp work sheep? Just curious because often times that will give a BC so much self confidence and satisfaction that they become "a different dog". Not for the time being, though I have sheep and I got Kipp for a working farm dog. When I decided to do SAR with him, it was suggested that I focus on that and skip the sheep for the time being. All things considered I think it was the right decision to make. Correct me if I am wrong, but it sure sounds like Kipp is overthreshold before you think he is... that the distance needs to be waaay further back for DS/CC to be effective... You could be right on, it might be that I'm pushing too much/too fast. I will be backing up a bit and seeing if that helps. And what is CAT? I do appreciate all the thoughts and suggestions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 Solo is worse around some other people when I am around because in addition to being defensive, he is protective of me. This is not always a bad thing (he has gotten me out of a couple of sticky situations) but it can be annoying when he is protecting me from people who are not a threat to me. Sometimes dogs are worse with the owner around because they have enough confidence then to react defensively. This is definitely true of Solo at the vet. If I am in the room, he is much more aggressive than when I am not there -- the first time we visit a new vet. When I am not in the room, he is so utterly terrified that he is paralyzed into inaction. However, the next time we visit the vet he will invariably be worse, whether I am in the room or not, because he now knows what to expect and figures he is not going to go down without a fight. Either way, you ARE going to be around most of the time when your dog encounters new dogs or new people, so that's the situation you must work on. Accept that you are part of the equation, don't beat yourself up over it (it's probably not your "fault"), and move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancy in AZ Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 My program for initiating Boo to new people is to remove myself from the equation for the first few meetings. This helps by eliminating the "possession" part of his issue. He will not accept new people when I am present, though he has progressed to a point where he can be there quietly (on lead or behind a gate) as long as there's no interaction expected. Boo sounds to be very much like Solo on the fear aggression/possession aggression spectrum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 Click to Calm helped Speedy a lot, too, and I am very glad it was out when he was at his "worst". But the mat work and LAT has taken him to a whole new level. Dog in Your Face would have helped him a lot way back when, also. Well, maybe one of these days, I'll dig out the book and try to read it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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