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I always thought border collie could do both herding and agility and excel at them. Comments from my previous post made me wonder...

 

Can border collie excel at herding and agility?

 

If yes, do you train herding and agility together?

 

Or do you just teach one then the other?

 

If no, why not?

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Can border collie excel at herding and agility?

 

Yes, but...

 

Are you talking about training both or serious competition in both?

 

Serious competition takes time, effort and money. It also takes a handler who is 110% committed to learning and exceling in the venue.

 

Can a BC learn and do well at both? Sure, they can. But the chances of the dog/handler team being at the top of the game in both are very, very slim.

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I think you need to determine as to what level you want to achieve on the herding front, I know that some may disagree but to me stock dog trialing is way more complex then agility, there are factors to consider and understand that are not fixed, you have to understand livestock, the effects of pressure on livestock. You also need to consider your dogs shortfalls, the dog may lack a little in one area or another but the handler can make up for it. I consider stock work as a discipline rather then a sport, with a discipline you need to understand the little tiny bits and pieces that make the whole. I don't see any reason that a top herding dog can't be a top agility dog, but, I think the reason you don't see to much of it is because once you take on the challange to master the stock work and get bit by the bug, you won't put much effort into agility. Mastering the art of training stock dogs is a life time endevor and committment, and mastering it, is what is required to consistently produce top notch competitive stock dogs.

 

With stock work you are dealing with way more then athletic ability and the ability to follow direction, the dog has to read the pressure of the stock correctly and relate the commands to the livestock, I believe the real goods ones are doing a lot of thinking out there.

 

Deb

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SS Cressa,

 

May I ask, what is your expirence with stock work and what trials have you been to? Have you seen any of the USBCHA Open Field trials? What venue do you want to trial at, ie: USBCHA, AKC or AHBA?

 

What we have seen effects our judgement of what it takes to become a top competitor, in our area most of the stock dog trials are arena trials, if I base training on them I am going to fall way short in acheiving the skill set required to compete at the Open Field Trials.

 

Deb

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May I ask, what is your expirence with stock work and what trials have you been to? Have you seen any of the USBCHA Open Field trials?

 

Almost none unless watching a ton of herding videos counts! We are training at a facility near us. We have only gone to 2 classes so far. And I am hoping for in the winter to be able to do more since agility dies down some.

 

I have been researching how to herd almost since I got a border collie. I am a firm believer in dog being able to do what they were bred for.

 

What venue do you want to trial at, ie: USBCHA, AKC or AHBA?

 

I am not quite that far yet -LOL- just not at any AKC herding trials

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Do you have your own stock? I don't, but I am pretty dedicated (generally go out twice a week) and have been training my first dog for more than three years. We are still novices. There is a lot more to stockwork than agility (as a comparison, my dog's littermate sister is an agility master who qualifies for nationals; her owner started agility roughly the same time I began training Taz with sheep). A general rule I've heard is that it usually takes a green handler ten years to go from novice to open with a green dog. Of course, there are many variables to that rule, but, no matter what, becoming competent in stockwork with a dog requires pretty hardcore dedication.

 

I think I could do agility with Taz, but he is never going to shine at it the way his sister does if I continue to put so much energy into working stock with him. One difference I've noticed between stockwork and agility is an emphasis on handler focus in agility. That quality, so helpful and perhaps necessary in agilty, would be a liability with sheep. I want my dog to be watching the stock, not me. He needs to make decisions on his own, not wait for me to tell him what to do and where to be. I hesitate to say too much about the intracacies of agility, since I do not know very much about it, but it does seem as though there are some critical differences between the two activities. I suppose the dogs can distinguish between them, though, and change their actions to some degree, but I don't know what default behaviors they would "fall back on" under pressure. I think Kristi might be a good person to chime in in this thread, as she does both stockwork and agility successfully, though not with the same dogs (I don't think?).

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I am hoping to trian my dogs in agility and herding and trial in agility and herding. Eventho I might find someone else to handle my dog in herding...

 

Why? Have you done both? Do you enjoy both? Are you looking for titles?

 

First of all, I'm trying to figure out your reasoning behind wanting to do both. I have BCs and do dog related activities is because I enjoy doing things with my dog. But if you're having someone else handle your dog, it sounds like your goals might be different.

 

From your posts it sounds like you are young and ambitious. Ambition is a good, it can help you accomplish much in life. But if you want to be at the top of your game in something, pick one thing, focus on it and give it your best effort. It's hard to master one thing when you are focusing on several.

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Ok, that makes sense. I have an agility trainer that comes up here to work on my stock, she has at least one dog that has her MACH, she also has 2 younger border collies that she purchased after watching a couple events from a sport breeder that is trying to maintain herding lines per her website. None of her three dogs are showing enough drive and balance to go real far in stock work, two are not interested in stock at all and one may have enough to be a farm dog, she may be able to do some in the field trials but I don't think she has enough drive to handle the real tough work. Her plan on the 2 younger dogs was to train them in agility and then do stock work, now she is faced with acquiring another dog, so that she can trial. When she first purchased the dogs her idea of competition was letting the dog work and things just happened, now she realizes that there is alot more to it, and may even forget about stock work and stick to agility. I think you need to focus on one or the other and if the dog just happens to do both super well, consider yourself lucky. If you want to do both, my bet would be on selecting for stock work first, the agility should be there. But in order to properly select for stock work you have to understand the entire discipline, that can take a long time and many never truely grasp it.

 

You said your taking lessons, what level of competition has your trainer been successful at, some trainers or instructors know just a bit more then their students, some are top notch national competitors, then there are some that have the understanding, can teach it but may not compete much. If you want to compete top, seek out the best instructor you can find, where are their student competing, how well are they doing when they compete? We have a trainer locally that competes AKC and ASCA says he can train a dog to compete Open USBCHA but can not even compete in the Novice with his own dogs, I don't know of any of his students that stayed with him that have achieved any more then entry level.

 

Even for those folks that have top dogs, buying a puppy is a gamble, you don't know for sure that the pup will develop into a top notch trial dog, you might be better off purchasing a well started dog from an established trainer that meets your criteria for agility, that is of course, if you can get them to sell it to you. Some stock dog breeders/trainers will not sell dogs to perspective owners that are not committed to stock work and trialing.

 

Deb

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One difference I've noticed between stockwork and agility is an emphasis on handler focus in agility. That quality, so helpful and perhaps necessary in agilty, would be a liability with sheep.

 

I think that's common for a lot of handlers, but the person we train in agility with is pretty adamant about the dog understanding the difference between "handler" focus and "obstacle" focus, and she only asks for handler focus in terms of managing the course and line--not the obstacles themselves, which are, in theory, entirely the dog's responsibility.

 

I think there *can* be a lot of similarities between aspects of the two depending on how you train and what you expect of the dog in agility. I've actually been pretty surprised at hearing some of the same training strategies and techniques. But, personally, I think it would be extremely difficult to train to a competitive level at both (if that's a goal)--the dog could probably do it, but the time, $$ and finesse necessary at the high levels in both activities would really take someone who didn't need a day (or night) job and didn't need much sleep.

 

Some differences I notice are: Agility training doesn't really seem to orient toward pressure and is not particularly manipulating the dog's instinct and, maybe an insignificant difference, but one I've noticed when I really pay attention: those wiley obstacles don't seem to have a mind of their own.... :rolleyes::D

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Why? Have you done both? Do you enjoy both? Are you looking for titles?

 

First of all, I'm trying to figure out your reasoning behind wanting to do both. I have BCs and do dog related activities is because I enjoy doing things with my dog. But if you're having someone else handle your dog, it sounds like your goals might be different.

 

From your posts it sounds like you are young and ambitious. Ambition is a good, it can help you accomplish much in life. But if you want to be at the top of your game in something, pick one thing, focus on it and give it your best effort. It's hard to master one thing when you are focusing on several.

 

I compete in agility with Cressa...(this last weekend we got two more DBL Q's and will be going to nationals) Cressa is only 3.5 and has taken me far in the last year and a half on a limited agility budget. We both are addicted to and love agility.

 

Herding I started because I love watching dogs herd... even if it only is on videos and also becuase I believe if you buy a herding dog you should let it herd and see if it likes it. I took Cressa to see how she handle sheep when she turn 3. Of all of our (mine and my sisters) border collies (3 at the time) Cressa was the one who took to it naturally. Me on the other hand was not use to having to watch sheep and not the dog. LOL

 

I figure if Cressa does excel at sheep why not let someone that excels at sheep trial her. For me it would be for fun for cressa it would be fun/work.

 

Herding trial I don't expect to win at- I would be doing it for fun.

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What I can't believe is that no one has brought up the elephant in the room- once you start your dog on sheep, your need to do agility, seems to vanish.

 

This was not my experience. In fact, my decision was the exact opposite! :rolleyes:

 

I'm not sure about doing both. Part of the reason I elected not to continue herding lessons with Dean (although not the main reason) was that I did not want to risk injury to either him or to me that would keep us from participating in sports. Granted, injuries happen in sports, too, but my heart is definitely in sports. But I had truly wanted to continue with both, I would have done so.

 

If you want to do both and you have the time, money, and wherewithal to give both 100%, I say go for it! :D You can always change your mind about one or the other and either scale back involvement or simply choose to do one or the other later on.

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IMO herding is not about "Letting them do it", it's about training them so that you can do it, or rather the handler can do it. They are the tool so that we can go out at get our livestock moved from point a to point b, yes the dog is being judged, but if you don't have them trained so that they are useful the judging won't go so well, and then it's not fun....

 

Deb

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Did I ever tell you the story about...

How I was diagnosed with Rheumatoid arthritis, and that decided that sheep work would be easier on my body. So, I signed up for and took a lesson, and within 5 mins of being in with the sheep, got my leg broken for me. Funny eh? Wasn't really, but it made clear to me the dangers inherent with that sort of work. Agility for me, I was totally burned out. My dogs liked it, but I lost my love for it. Lucy, the dog I work didn't really take to it as much as the rest of my dogs, but sheepwork, she will do anytime anyplace anywhere. So, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. I think many people start out doing both agility/sheep work, and then, one trumps the other.

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So, I signed up for and took a lesson, and within 5 mins of being in with the sheep, got my leg broken for me. Funny eh? .

 

 

That's my worse nightmare, we changed the way we get people started just for that reason, heat seeking mutton missles discouraged here...

 

Deb

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Accidents happen- no matter what you do. I don't hold anyone responsible. Sometimes though, my knee will give me a pang or two when I walk out to the trial field- who will win today? The dog or the sheep :rolleyes:

 

That's my worse nightmare, we changed the way we get people started just for that reason, heat seeking mutton missles discouraged here...

 

Deb

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I know a few people whose dogs work for a living (a couple trial too) and they do agility but neither at top level.

In fact, one hobby trialler was given a surplus trained dog to trial with on specific condition that she didn't do agility with her.

That may just have been ignorant prejudice though.

 

Pam

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Did I ever tell you the story about...

How I was diagnosed with Rheumatoid arthritis, and that decided that sheep work would be easier on my body. So, I signed up for and took a lesson, and within 5 mins of being in with the sheep, got my leg broken for me. Funny eh? Wasn't really, but it made clear to me the dangers inherent with that sort of work. Agility for me, I was totally burned out. My dogs liked it, but I lost my love for it. Lucy, the dog I work didn't really take to it as much as the rest of my dogs, but sheepwork, she will do anytime anyplace anywhere. So, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. I think many people start out doing both agility/sheep work, and then, one trumps the other.

 

Thankfully, I didn't break anything, but I had a collision with a sheep my second or third time out. I did end up continuing with Speedy until it started to take too much of a toll on his body, but the "spark" wasn't there with Dean. He liked it, but I didn't even come close to loving it! We both enjoy Agility, so that's what we went with.

 

I agree that for many one or the other is going to "win out" in the long run because of preferences and aptitude of either the dog or handler or both! :rolleyes:

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I compete in agility and sheep dog trials, albeit with different dogs. My current agility dog has qualified for both the AAC and USDAA nationals in the past, although we are hardly what you would call "world-class". However, she has fun, has most of her titles, and is fairly competitive, especially in Jumpers. My Lou dog and I compete in sheepdog trials in the Open class. I bought him as a fully-trained dog, and we have been competing together for 2.5 years.

 

Now to answer your question, I guess I need to know what "excel" means to you. In a previous topic, you indicated your goal is to get on the World team. I assume you mean the US team that goes to the FCI worlds? That is an incredibly difficult task, given the sheer number of agility competitors, the amount of time/money you need to spend going to trials, try-outs, invitationals, and the like. As you know, it's more than putting a MACH on your dog. It's basically an all-out campaign (trailer race). Ditto the IFCS team, in case that is the World team to which you aspire. I've talked to some of those folks who aspire to be on those teams, and it pretty much eats up their lives and their pocketbooks. Also, you need to have a really good dog and be a really good handler, but I digress. :rolleyes:

 

For the "herding" part of it, well, again, what do you mean by "excel"? I guess for me and many on this board, it would mean a dog that can win or place consistently in USBCHA-sanctioned events. on tough sheep, tough fields, in the heat, and the freezing rain, etc., as well as being a valuable asset on your farm. I can't speak to the kind of hours that you need to put in to get to this level 'cause we ain't there, but I am sure it's considerable. And again, you need to have a really good dog and you yourself need to be a really good handler.

 

But the part that kinda boggles my mind is this need to somehow honour the dog's heritage by "doing herding". I know lots of agility dogs here and in the States who come from excellent working dogs, who are themselves just incredible agility dogs, and who have never seen a sheep/duck/whathaveyou. These dogs are not suffering, they do not feel a deep-rooted need to "herd" kids or cats. They are well-loved pets, they get to play with their human almost every weekend. I don't think they are missing out on much.

 

Anyway, like everyone else has said, it comes down to time, money, and your dog. Wick and I do 6 or 7 agility trials a year, Lou does maybe 8 or 9 sheepdog trials a year, and throw in a couple of flyball tournies ... maybe 20 weekends of any year, we are competing in something. And that's a pretty light schedule compared to most serious competitors. I can't imagine spending more weekends than that on the road. After all, there is life outside of dogs that occasionally needs some attention. :D

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I was talking about USBCHA open field trials when I talked about the time frame. Not arena trials. There is a HUGE difference.

And I wasn't talking about the dog needing that time; I meant it can take 10 years (often longer) for a person to go from novice to competent stockman(woman) running a well-trained dog and occasionally placing in the open class of a USBCHA field trial.

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