Owen or Scrimgeour

[Peejy]

Didn't know where to post this, i thought here would be the most appropriate place..

I am in the the process of major research on different uk working lines as i am considering purchasing a working bc. I have narrowed down my list to Aled Owen and Derek Scrimgeour. I really like both handler's dogs and training methods. I am after a dog that i can train first and foremost for practical farming work, and then trialling. Which handler's bloodlines are used more and excel in practical farming situations as well as trialing?

Can anyone help??

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I got two bitches from Aled and am very happy with them. I would get another one from him in a flash

Diane

[1sheepdoggal]

Which handler's bloodlines are used more and excel in practical farming situations as well as trialing

 

Apples and oranges?

[mjk05]

Peejy, have you contacted Kathy Gooch? She has recently imported some dogs from the UK, including one that is a grandson of Scrimgeour's Ben, and would be worth talking to about various lines as well as the importation process (which is a hugely expensive drama, so I'm told).

 

Its probably also worth thinking about what sort of work specifically you are wanting to do with this dog (what sort of farm work, what sort of trials). We have a couple of imported dogs (and some half-UK pups from different lines) that work pretty well on the farm (just sheep for us- merino and crossies), mob work and yard work, not dramatically different to many local dogs, and should also be able to trial (utility + 3sheep), but I understand some of the imported lines aren't really suitable for 3 sheep trialling and have a lot of grunt on really tough sheep/cattle.

[kelpiegirl]

I think it's important to note that three sheep trialing in Australia, is completely different to that which we see in usbcha trials.

[mjk05]

I think its important to note that Peejy is in Australia...

[C Crocker]

Which handler's bloodlines are used more and excel in practical farming situations as well as trialing

 

Apples and oranges?

[/quote

 

 

By this question is it correct to think that you do not believe that neither Aled nor Derek work their dogs on the farm and trial them as well?

[Peejy]

Thanks for your replies

 

Peejy, have you contacted Kathy Gooch? She has recently imported some dogs from the UK, including one that is a grandson of Scrimgeour's Ben, and would be worth talking to about various lines as well as the importation process (which is a hugely expensive drama, so I'm told).

 

Hi mjk05, yes I contacted Kathy a couple of weeks ago about her dogs, but haven't really discussed bloodlines any further with her. I will email her again tonight..

 

Its probably also worth thinking about what sort of work specifically you are wanting to do with this dog (what sort of farm work, what sort of trials).

I'm after a dog that will excel in both yard and paddock work (and in trialling- utility and 3 sheep), in other words an all-round dog.

 

By this question is it correct to think that you do not believe that neither Aled nor Derek work their dogs on the farm and trial them as well?

No, I have been told by some people that Aled's dogs are the better pick when looking for an all-round dog, while others have told me Derek's were the better of the two.. I was confused, so I thought i'd ask to find out what other's opinions were. Sorry, I should have explained myself better in the first place.

[1sheepdoggal]

By this question is it correct to think that you do not believe that neither Aled nor Derek work their dogs on the farm and trial them as well

 

On the contrary. I assume from what I have learned/seen, and read that they get ample amounts of both, and are suited for either in ample amounts as well. If the question was directed at me, ( sort of confusing) my meaning of Apples and oranges, is that either would most likly be a fine choice, as either is breeding dogs to perform to the highest standards, so either choice would be a good one for whichever type of work was desired.

[kelpiegirl]

I don't think you can go wrong with either, period. Every dog will have it's strengths/weaknesses. In the end, you have to go with the breeder you feel most comfortable with, and who's track record is proven (this part is done).

[Sue R]

I would leap at the chance to have a dog or pup from either one (or from a whole lot of other, similarly proven quality Border Collie people).

[C Crocker]

By this question is it correct to think that you do not believe that neither Aled nor Derek work their dogs on the farm and trial them as well

 

On the contrary. I assume from what I have learned/seen, and read that they get ample amounts of both, and are suited for either in ample amounts as well. If the question was directed at me, ( sort of confusing) my meaning of Apples and oranges, is that either would most likly be a fine choice, as either is breeding dogs to perform to the highest standards, so either choice would be a good one for whichever type of work was desired.

[/quote

 

Gotcha, now I see what you were refering to with the apples and oranges. I misunderstood -I thought you were refering to trial work and farm work. I know these dogs do both so I was confused thinking otherwise. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Lora]

So Peejy, are you talking about importing a pup, a trained dog...or buying something from those mentioned bloodlines local there in Australia??

 

Lora

[mjk05]

I'm after a dog that will excel in both yard and paddock work (and in trialling- utility and 3 sheep), in other words an all-round dog.

Aren't we all?

 

Seriously, its going to be really hard to find a dog that will excel at 3 sheep trialling as well as yard work, especially buying sight unseen from overseas lines, where trials are so different and they often don't use dogs in the yards the way we do in trials.

 

Some people say that "UK dogs" (as a generalisation) aren't really suitable for Australian 3 sheep trialling- the usual complaint is lacking block + cover on quick sheep, and not being strong enough on the head. In my very limited experience, I'm starting to think that depends a lot on the lines + the dog. Our imported bitch (mainly Scottish breeding) has heaps of heading ability, block and cover and is quick and arcy enough to handle unworked merinos, and can settle in behind heavier sheep and steer too- but she's probably not as strong as some. There is another imported adult bitch (Price's Davy, Dryden Joe, IntSupCh Wisp) that is trialling in 3sheep over here- she seems like she's able to handle our trials (has trouble with crossing) and we have 2 of her pups, just starting, and they seem to have enough heading/cover too. But I have seen other UK-bred dogs that trialled successfully in ISDS type trials that didn't manage so well. Getting one that will run a yard course well makes it even harder- its hard enough to find a local dog that will excel at 3 sheep and yard work, from breeders that are doing those sort of trials! I don't know about Tas, but I'm told most E. States yard/utility trials require dogs to back, you can't work the outside of the race, so that's worth considering (re build of dog etc).

 

If I were you, I'd be looking at a couple of traits that you really want personally (or maybe what you see as lacking in your local dogs), and accepting that you might not get an imported dog to excel in Australian trials (especially if they are trained for ISDS trials- they might though!) but you'll be bringing in fresh blood and that's always a good thing. I have been told that imported dogs (especially the stronger types) cross really well with local lines, so that might be where you get your all-rounder.

 

Farm work isn't such a big issue- it doesn't seem to be so different, you still need to fetch and drive mobs, single and hold, and hopefully cast and muster big paddocks. But what sort of sheep you're running or your farm situation might make some difference.

 

I guess you need to talk to the blokes you're considering buying from, and work out which best suits your needs. I hope the above is useful.

 

Good luck, anyway

I'd love to hear what you decide on.

[Janba]

Aren't we all?

- she seems like she's able to handle our trials (has trouble with crossing) and we have 2 of her pups, just starting, and they seem to have enough heading/cover too.

 

That is a interesting comment. Both my boy and his sister, who are both strong to the head, cover well and my boy has a good block but have a both have a bad tendancy to cross. Neither softens as they hit the head in a cast either, as a lot of Aussie bred BC do, so the lift tends to be too fast.

[mjk05]

Hey Janba,

that's interesting. I'd assumed that the only reason the bitch I mentioned has a tendency to cross is because she trialled for quite a while in the UK before coming over (think she was running in Open) so she didn't have the whole "trial ground = no crossing" thing drummed into her like our dogs, and just occasionally, if it seems logical to zip through in front of the sheep (eg at obstacles), she'll take that sensible option and get DQed That's why I love utility trials But she seems to be getting better now she has more experience. I hadn't really thought that crossing could be an inherited trait, I thought it was just training- except for young dogs that are really strong on the head and just take any route there... but that seems to be more common in Australian dogs, if anything. Why do you think your two cross?

 

Our UK dog being trained for 3sheep seems to have an OK lift, when she's in control, doesn't have any obvious tendency to cross- she does like to get behind and steer, but we haven't done any driving with her yet (except mobs), and really she doesn't seem THAT much different to some local dogs. But there's so much difference between lines of Australian dogs that I'm sure its just as hard to generalise about UK dogs- depends on the lines and the dogs, I guess.

 

apologies for spelling errors- typing with small child feeding

[Janba]

There could be a inherited facctor in the crossing. My boy has both IntSupCh Wisp and Price's Davy in his pedigree so has some of the same lines as the bitch you mentioned.

 

I don't really know why they cross - I am still very green in training and trialling. I think one of the reasons is to get to the head as quickly as possible combined with the fact that my boy is quite happy to work off balance. He also doesn't seem to have the strong instinct to bring the sheep to you like the purpose bred Aussie trialling dogs I have been practicing with. He doesn't cross at obstacles but will in the cast and when the sheep are a distance from me. One interesting thing is that he rarely loses his sheep if they make a break but will cross arcing round to get to the head to control them.

[mjk05]

He also doesn't seem to have the strong instinct to bring the sheep to you like the purpose bred Aussie trialling dogs I have been practicing with.

That's really interesting.

Our Scottish girl is as natural in fetching as any of our Australian dogs (a fairly wide variety of lines) but her litter brother is a totally different kettle of fish, much less intense and loose eyed, really pretty strong and good in the yards- and as happy to push away as to fetch. He's going to be more a farm dog and do yard trialling (!) rather than 3sheep, the way he's going.

 

He doesn't cross at obstacles but will in the cast and when the sheep are a distance from me.

That I think is just experience (in my expert opinion ). Heaps of young dogs do that, especially if you send the dog to the tail side or the sheep swing to the other direction after you've sent the dog. My first 3 sheep trial results were X, X, X, X (and a LS and Ret in there somewhere too ) because I had young inexperienced dogs and I kept sending them to the side I thought was best, without watching the sheep, and the sheep moved off away from the dog as they ran out, so they kept flipping across to head (I think the pressure from the fence and the let-out behind the sheep also made the dog less keen to run tight against the fence). It still happens occasionally, but doing a bit of pulling-off helped at least one of my dogs learn to hold his side even when the sheep are on the fence and moving. I think its exacerbated by dogs that are a bit rushed and not in the right frame of mind at the top of the cast, like young inexperienced dogs panicking a bit (they seem to settle down with experience and the problem goes away) or dogs that are just b@#$%y hoons, like mine

 

I reckon yours will probably grow out of it with experience

[Peejy]

So Peejy, are you talking about importing a pup, a trained dog...or buying something from those mentioned bloodlines local there in Australia??

I will more than likely be buying a pup in Australia with imported lines, and in the future both Mum and I would also like to import a couple of dogs from the uk.

 

Aren't we all?

 

Seriously, its going to be really hard to find a dog that will excel at 3 sheep trialling as well as yard work, especially buying sight unseen from overseas lines, where trials are so different and they often don't use dogs in the yards the way we do in trials.

 

Some people say that "UK dogs" (as a generalisation) aren't really suitable for Australian 3 sheep trialling- the usual complaint is lacking block + cover on quick sheep, and not being strong enough on the head. In my very limited experience, I'm starting to think that depends a lot on the lines + the dog. Our imported bitch (mainly Scottish breeding) has heaps of heading ability, block and cover and is quick and arcy enough to handle unworked merinos, and can settle in behind heavier sheep and steer too- but she's probably not as strong as some. There is another imported adult bitch (Price's Davy, Dryden Joe, IntSupCh Wisp) that is trialling in 3sheep over here- she seems like she's able to handle our trials (has trouble with crossing) and we have 2 of her pups, just starting, and they seem to have enough heading/cover too. But I have seen other UK-bred dogs that trialled successfully in ISDS type trials that didn't manage so well. Getting one that will run a yard course well makes it even harder- its hard enough to find a local dog that will excel at 3 sheep and yard work, from breeders that are doing those sort of trials! I don't know about Tas, but I'm told most E. States yard/utility trials require dogs to back, you can'twork the outside of the race, so that's worth considering (re build of dog etc).

 

If I were you, I'd be looking at a couple of traits that you really want personally (or maybe what you see as lacking in your local dogs), and accepting that you might not get an imported dog to excel in Australian trials (especially if they are trained for ISDS trials- they might though!) but you'll be bringing in fresh blood and that's always a good thing. I have been told that imported dogs (especially the stronger types) cross really well with local lines, so that might be where you get your all-rounder.

 

Farm work isn't such a big issue- it doesn't seem to be so different, you still need to fetch and drive mobs, single and hold, and hopefully cast and muster big paddocks. But what sort of sheep you're running or your farm situation might make some difference.

 

I guess you need to talk to the blokes you're considering buying from, and work out which best suits your needs. I hope the above is useful.

 

Good luck, anyway smile.gif

I'd love to hear what you decide on.

 

 

I do realise the dificulty i am faced with trying to find a dog that will do well in all areas of work, lol. I will probably be searching for quite some time.i beleive that i must start (as I hope to breed isds borders) with the best dog/s i can find to produce top quality workers...

It is intersting to to hear that the some of the uk dogs don't do as well at trials compared to the australian dogs. I think that most of the time it is not the uk dogs at fault but more the design/manner of the trials here in Australia (that is only my opinion though )

I did not realise there were so many imported dogs in the country, I only thought there were a few.

I won't breed with any local Border Collies (unless I find an exceptional dog), too many breeders have bred more for the traits needed to be a successful trialler and alot of the resulting dogs lack in the necessary traits (mustering, Scope and lack of strength) needed for practical work.

Thanks for your advice Mjk05, It has been very helpful. I will definately let you know how i go.

 

There could be a inherited facctor in the crossing.

I believe that crossing is an inherited factor/fault, our young koolie, Evie was crossing quite a bit when i first started her training, she has since calmed down and learn't that it is not allowed and she only does it now and then when i send her out on a longer cast. Her sister is the same.

How often do you train your boy Janba?

[mjk05]

I did not realise there were so many imported dogs in the country, I only thought there were a few.

Nah, there's actually lots I thought that too, until recently, but the more I look, the more imported dogs I find. There are also quite a lot of dogs from recent UK breeding that have come here via NZ. I've been putting all our local registry information and some interstate pedigrees on a database and its amazing how many of our local dogs have imported dogs in there recent pedigree- even successful 3 sheep dogs (the winner of the Supreme 3sheep a few years ago was sired by an import).

 

The last 2 bitches brought here to our stud dog have been UK breeding, one the imported bitch mentioned above, and the other one is total farm breeding, her breeders never trialled, they're "just" farmers, but they spent a fair bit of money bringing over decent ISDS dogs from overseas and developing their own lines from those dogs. They have produced a fair few of the farm dogs around here.

 

Dual registered dogs (ISDS/ANKC) still seem to be pretty rare, and there's a fair demand for them from what I hear, from the ANKC herding and sports fraternity, and from ANKC breeders who want to incorporate working blood into their lines.

[Janba]

Dual registered dogs (ISDS/ANKC) still seem to be pretty rare, and there's a fair demand for them from what I hear, from the ANKC herding and sports fraternity, and from ANKC breeders who want to incorporate working blood into their lines.

 

I think there are only 3 dual registered dogs and few more bitches at the moment though there is a move to get the ISDS recognised so more dogs can be incorporated into the sporting/herding bloodlines.

[mjk05]

There must be more than that, surely?

Aren't there 2 or 3 from Cole's litter, and then there's Astra Lad, and Pentwyncoch Duke, and all the Guirmere dogs are dual-reg with ABCA, aren't they?

[mjk05]

I think that most of the time it is not the uk dogs at fault but more the design/manner of the trials here in Australia

I don't see it as a discussion of "fault", its more horses for courses. The "trial-bred" dog issue is always being debated, and while I totally understand the problem of 3-sheep specific dogs that aren't much use for anything else, in my area of Australia many of the trialling dogs also work as farm dogs and compete in yard/utility trials, so it doesn't seem to be a huge issue. I do think if you're importing dogs from countries where their trials test different things and you want to excel in our trials rather than just compete, you will need to think really carefully about which traits you're after.

[Janba]

There must be more than that, surely?

Aren't there 2 or 3 from Cole's litter, and then there's Astra Lad, and Pentwyncoch Duke, and all the Guirmere dogs are dual-reg with ABCA, aren't they?

 

 

Entire dogs. Lad, Cole and Duke that we have been able to ascertain. Deb sells her pups under a desexing contract only. The other 2 from Cole's litter are bitches and there are 2 bitches from a later litter.

[blackacre]

Honestly, I think it all comes down to individual dogs rather than lines. Probably the closest you can come is to see what any *particular* cross has produced before. It might well be different in Australia, can't speak to that. Perhaps you are more likely to get a certain type of dog from certain studs, since line breeding seems a lot more prevalent there?

It is true, however, that both of Aled and Derek, by all accounts, prefer to run a certain type of dog, which does give you some kind of indication of what you are likely to get. Other than that, I believe that Derek does very little trialing, so his dogs may be harder for a buyer to judge, unless you go out to his place to watch them work, whereas Aled of course can be seen running his current dogs frequently--with, er, decent success. So it will really all come down to what suits you and your circumstances. Just bear in mind that it takes years and multiple dogs for most of us to figure that out.

A