Recall in the heat of the chase

[hoku's mum]

Hi all, been awhile since I've been on the boards. Nice to be back.

 

Here is some background. We are having an issue with Hoku (2.5 years old) chasing deer. We live on 5 partially fenced acres of prime deer habitat (we have water, green meadows, cover in the midst of dry dry dry). We have been working with Hoku on recall, and if we call him before the chase starts, he's been great. A few weeks ago he even stopped in mid chase, and came right back, Whoo Hoo!!!! Big big party ensued. We started giving him more freedom as he was doing soooo great. But now the fawns are here, and he blew us off and chased two off the property and down to the end of the road (luckily we live close to the end of a dead end, not much traffic at all). That is the first time he has left the property in a chase. He did come right back, thank doG. Not sure why he stopped.... The next day he flushed up a flock of turkeys (on our property) and caught and killed a teenage turkey. He is now back on total lock down, no freedom at all, when outside he is leashed or in his pen except for training and play times.

 

My problem is that if he is leashed or off leash for play or training, or even just on the long line, he ignores the buggers. He gives us great attention, hardly even gives the deer or turkeys a look, so no opportunity to set him up to correct the chase. It's those surprise times like if I take him with me to take out the garbage, or hanging out laundry, and he spots the deer before I do, he's off. So we are leery to ever let him out now for fear of another chase off the property or even worse of him catching a fawn. He caught one that was injured last winter, and it was horrid. I guess we just have to stay the course of little to no freedom (what a drag for all of us), but thought I would toss it out there and see if anyone had any training ideas for recall in mid chase. We still toy with the idea of some lessons on sheep, but not sure if even that would translate in his brain, as sheep are in a controlled environment, the deer are intruders on HIS land! And I'm not sure that using sheep is right or fair with his high prey drive. Any thoughts are appreciated.

[mum24dog]

This may help -

 

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/behaviour--tr...og-chasing.html

 

Pam

[Alaska]

Pam,

 

Outstanding link. I immediately read overything else on that site. He's clearly a trainer who has reasoned out his positions and methods based on a lot of knowledge and experience, rather than just repeating common dogmas, and it shows. Thanks.

[mum24dog]

I don't know the guy myself even though he's only 60 miles away from where I live but he's recommended by people whose opinion I respect.

I find his approach remarkable because

A he is an ex police dog handler and they don't have a great reputation in the way of positive training methods (although getting better) and

B he is based in a rural area where many owners with a chasing problem seek advice from people who use shock collars as a knee jerk reaction.

 

With any luck that may change - Wales has banned their use and possession, Scotland is on the verge of doing the same (or may have done already) and England is reviewing the issue with the campaign to ban them being spearheaded by the KC and the RSPCA.

A bit late following several European countries but better late than never.

 

Pam

[MaggieDog]

This is a topic i'm very interested in as Maggie's chase drive is through the roof when it comes to small furry animals. I read the link, but honestly, Maggie could care less about any toy and I really can't see the method suggested working as they say it will - rabbits and toys are just too different in Maggie's case, though I can see how it works with dogs you can use toys with.

 

Any other thoughts out there?? The Really Relible Recal protocols look good, but calling away from distractions and calling away from prey still seem worlds different. If we had the ability to get more herding work I think that would help too since sheep are closer in terms of excitement level when compared to rabbits.

[hoku's mum]

I am always amazed at the great things that come up with this group. I have learned sooo much from this board...and continue to learn!

 

Thanks for the great link, Pam. What he says makes alot of sense to me. He gave me a good understanding of the root of the chase, and his protocol seems really sound. I am going to try it. We are part way there, in that we have been working hard on not letting Hoku practicing the chase and reinforce the drive, plus he LOVES chuck-it and Frisbee and any other chase type games. We do training while playing all the time. We were somewhat worried that by playing all those games we were reinforcing his prey drive, but I think the point that we are satisfying some hard-wired instinct in him in a harmless way, and using it as a training tool makes tons of sense.

 

Erin, I know what you mean about the toy and prey being worlds apart. Many, many, many worlds actually! I don't know how Maggie's toy drive is, but there are ways to build that. Maybe if you work with her on building toy drive, especially with chase type games, you could then work on teaching her some control in the game, using his ideas.

 

With Hoku, we are at the point that, when we are playing, he would rather play with us then chase critters. We used to 'lose' him regularly during play to what ever else was more interesting to him. He can now look at squirrels, or the neighbors horses running up and down the fence, or a deer spoinking by, but his attention comes back to us and the game in a flash when we ask. That has taken alot of work (plus he is finally starting to mature, thank doG!!!). I can call him off the lizard hunt, out of wild dog play, and sometimes even off of the squirrel-scream-tree-climbing frenzy (if he's been at it a bit, it is like he NEEDS to do it, even just for a moment, then he can come out of it) But, if he is just out and about with us and we are working on something that is not dog related, and he sees something, he is off like a shot, with his hearing turned off. It seems like it has to do with where his attention is. We can call him off of a running deer or bunny if we see it first or at the same time, and get his attention BEFORE he takes off. We need to advance to the point of being able to turn him around reliably if he sees it first and takes off.

 

Would love to hear others thoughts, ideas and techniques for this difficult problem.

[MaggieDog]

I was thinking about this some more and I remembered that many people talk about training a reliable down from motion vs. a recall as it's easier to get a down rather than a full recall off of prey (i.e. the dog can still watch the prey vs. having to completely disengage from it). That's where I really wish we could do more stockwork since it teaches that reliable down from motion on animals.

 

Kristin - I guess I should get off my butt and do some of the toy drive building stuff I've read, but it's so tough - Maggie has *no* toy drive to speak of (I had to clicker train her to retrieve anythign to begin with) and the last time I tried to up the value of a toy I was sorely disappointed; she managed to get more interested in it initially, but then the interest just dropped after a few interactions with it. Even the toy she finds most interesting (a flirt pole) only holds her attention for a few mins.

[hoku's mum]

The idea of a down from motion is a really good one. I can get it on Hoku's return with the ball, but have not gotten it with the throw out (my laziness and lack of working on it ). That shouldn't be to hard with the help of a long line. He LOVES working together, so if I could make prey be a game that we play together......hummmm..... Great suggestion!

Erin, is Maggie at all interested in chasing a ball or Frisbee? How about tossing a toy up for her to catch? We play a game with 4 or 5 balls, tossing one up about 6-8 feet high and a few feet away from Hoku. He jumps and catches it, we have another ready, he drops the first and we immediately toss the next one, rinse and repeat. He loves it, his tongue gets long fast with this game and it doesn't take much space, just good footing. It has a similar feel to the flirt pole, though I'v never tried one. You could easily do it on a long line and with any thing that tosses, say if she likes soft toys better then balls. Is she food motivated? Maybe a ball with food in it... or those balls with a fluffy tail...

[MaggieDog]

Balls nope unless she gets food for returning it, frisbees same as balls, toys with food inside she will run to pick up and then brings them back to me to get the food out of them. lol All she loses interest in within about 3 or 4 throws if she's not getting rewarded for bringing them back (we're on a bit of a variable reinforcement schedule but can't wean her down to one treat for and average of more than 4 throws). She'll play with the flirt pole toy without treats for about 5 mins and then she gets bored. Too bad I can't get her into lure coursing.

[Maralynn]

I used an e-collar with Kipp and it worked very well. He was always great on leash and close in to me but if he got farther out, he'd blow me off. He's in training for SAR so a reliable recall is a must.

 

He had maybe 3 corrections with the collar all together and his recall improved greatly. I only had it on him for a month and now even without it his recall is still great. With the e-collar I'd call him and if he'd blow me off I'd say "no", if he didn't respond I corrected with the collar. When he did come back to me (even after a correction) I "throw a party" with treats and praise.

 

 

With any luck that may change - Wales has banned their use and possession, Scotland is on the verge of doing the same (or may have done already) and England is reviewing the issue with the campaign to ban them being spearheaded by the KC and the RSPCA.

A bit late following several European countries but better late than never.

 

I think this is the common response when a person has not had an opportunity to see an e-collar used properly. And probably more often than not they are misused.

 

But an e-collar used properly is a good training tool for some dogs. The problem comes when clueless people use them as a knee-jerk reaction. Honestly, my sheep get a much bigger shock when they touch the electric fence than my dog does with an e-collar (yup, I've felt both...)

 

Erin, have you ever tried something like a horse whip with a fleece tug or leather rag tied to the end? You can drag it on the ground and make it dart back and forth - much more like a critter than a ball or fisbee.

[bexie]

I'd encourage the down training.

 

Hoku, if you have a fetch happy dog, check out http://bexandmolly.blogspot.com/2008/05/mo...stom-fetch.html

 

A game like that gets your dog used to responding to commands in a chase-a-ball situation and that is likely to help in other situations, too. I use down or sit commands often to break off a behavior before recalling her. It works great when she hears the neighbor dog barking and wants to rush through the trees to go check him out.

 

You'll want to build the holds up slowly--only require an instant at first. If he breaks it, just put him back in position. DH started by having her hold a down while he played with her ball and releasing her before throwing. Then he built up to having her hold a down long after he threw the ball. We also throw in downs and sits AFTER the ball is thrown and she's loose and running after it now. A lot of practice before throwing the ball and staying down when the ball was in play really helped build that up.

 

Also when he is next off leash (try it in more controlled areas before out where he will startle animals), make a habit of calling him in and sending him out again and giving him random downs and sits at a distance from you. It iwll help him get used to these things happening and teach him that a recall doesn't necessarily mean the fun is over.

[MaggieDog]

Maralynn - the flirt pole I talk about is basically the same as your lunge whip contraption. Mine's shorter since we do use it indoors (no yard). I've seriously considered ecollar work and had at one point borrowed a collar but shortly thereafter, and before I could try it, she ran out and got hit while chasing a rabbit and I decided I'd just always keep her leashed. I really worry about fall out from ecollar use with her as she's very soft (though maybe not on prey?!).

 

Her recall is improving, but it's not close to use in high distraction settings yet.

[Maralynn]

Maralynn - the flirt pole I talk about is basically the same as your lunge whip contraption. Mine's shorter since we do use it indoors (no yard). I've seriously considered ecollar work and had at one point borrowed a collar but shortly thereafter, and before I could try it, she ran out and got hit while chasing a rabbit and I decided I'd just always keep her leashed. I really worry about fall out from ecollar use with her as she's very soft (though maybe not on prey?!).

 

Gotcha!

 

Kipp is soft, too and Missy is very soft. While I'd never use an e-collar on Miss, I have used much harder corrections with her when she is on sheep and it doesn't really faze her as long as the correction is fair - ie, I'll yell "no" at her when she's thinking about gripping unapropriately, it'll do the trick and she keeps on working just fine. If I yelled "no" for something around the house it would crush her. I also use much stronger corrections with Kipp where any type of prey is involved (like cats!).

 

Most e-collars have several stim levels. The one I have is an Innotek with 7 levels and I could barely feel level 1. I think I used a level 3 with Kipp. It was enough to get his attention and for him to realize I could issue a long distance correction for not responding to a command he understood.

 

With the e-collar I'd want the dog to fully understand the command and how to take a fair correction and I'd use the word "no" before correcting with the collar so they know I'm the one giving the correction. I also set up a few situations where I knew Kipp would be tempted so I was prepared to respond quickly. It helps if you've got a semi contained area to start in so you've still got a bit of control - like a fenced in park or pasture.

[hoku's mum]

Thanks again for the input.

 

Maralynn, for me, the e-collar is a last resort, mainly because I don't trust myself to use it correctly.... operator error is one thing in agility .... with an e-collar it could have many unwanted repercussions. But if the other training ideas fail, we may consider it. I need to trust him here on our property.

 

Rebecca, we are starting to work on the down/stay in play with a long line, similar to what you describe. He is like, Oh Man, not the puppy long line!!! But he will chase the ball with the line on, but not chase critters with it on, so at least I have a chance to work with him on stopping in full out pursuit, even if it is just after a tennis ball! Hopefully that will translate to prey....

[Bo Peep]

This link was very helpful for me, as Usher starting chasing shadows when Bailey left. Everyone thought it was so funny. NOT!!!! I finally had a day to myself and nipped it in the bud by just calling him back to me. I'm sure this doesn't work for everyone, but I think diversion is the key to anything. His mind is now off the shadows, yet I still have to reinforce it every once in awhile.

I also am using that trick I saw that Pam posted to keep him from barking at the front window when dogs pass by. It's very helpful as my computer is where the front window is and I'm in here ALOT. I have a window sill that he lays on and it's his "space" while I type, or play games. Again, an old dog person learns from someone else. That's why I keep coming back.

Dianne

[MaggieDog]

So in sifting thru some Whole Dog Journal issues for a friend on a completely unrelated topic I ran across an incredibly salient article: "Off Leash Angst" in the July 2007 issue. It's not a training article per se but it does address that concern about high prey drive dogs off lead and really gave me some things to mull over. I highly suggest checking it out if you can.

 

I also had a bit of an epiphany at work today - if I can call Maggie out of rough play with Z I'm much closer to simulating the intensity and speed involved in chasing a prey animal. The drives are different but the pictures are similar. In the training building a whistle is already more reliable than verbal cues and Z helps her break off to recall as well. Yay for insights!!

[Lou Castle]

After you've tried the other methods, if they haven't worked, try the Ecollar per this article. Crittering Protocol. It uses the tool at a very low level of stim, where the dog first feels it. I developed the protocol to stop police dogs from chasing cats on yard-to-yard urban searches. It also stops dogs from chasing "critters" and works for dog to dog aggression as well.

 

Many people use the Ecollar for this problem, like dynamite, to "blast" the dog off the chase and teach him to avoid (fear) the critter. This can cause problems with working dogs, such as police dogs and SAR dogs. There are other types of fallout that can occur as well. My method doesn't have any of those effects.