who works the dog?

[zenotri]

After quite a break, I have just started taking my dogs back to sheep. I have found someone I trust, who likes my dog & who she works very nicely for.

 

At the moment he works her first, tells me what he is doing with her and then I have a go & attempt to do the same thing. I am sure this is a familiar story, but as a Novice, I don't get anywhere near the steadiness from her that he does. We get moments of it & it's never a disaster, but I know I could help her a lot more than I am & it will take some time for me to get there. Right now, I want what's best for her & I know that whilever he works her, she is forming good habits. We have had about 4-5 lessons with him. I feel like it might be better for her if I don't work her for a while so that those good habits can be cemented...or is it better for me to keep going the way I am, letting her do the right things with him while gaining some experience myself without doing too much damage?

 

I have a 2YO that is just starting as well. She has done very, very little so far. She started off very steady but has suddedly become very full on. I am determined that she will get into good habits from day one, so I am letting him work her, she is too much for me right now. I am thinking that I will wait until I am working my older dog well before I try to do much with her myself.

 

So what do you advise...is it better to let someone experienced work your dog, or is it more important to get the experience yourself?

 

I am sure this question has been asked before but couldn't find it.

[Sue R]

I honestly think that a combination of the two (the trainer working the dog and then you working the dog) can be very beneficial when you are a novice.

 

First off, the dog is being handled by someone who knows what they are doing, has better timing, and can see problems developing and hopefully prevent them.

 

Secondly, you are able to see what needs to be done, how it is done right, and gain a picture of what you are going to want to see when you work the dog.

 

I don't think I'd want to go somewhere where the trainer did all the handling - then, when I got home and the dog didn't (naturally) work quite so well or confidently or obediently under my less-than-stellar handling, it would be quite a let-down for both of us, and would probably leave both of us frustrated (and that's counterproductive).

 

Of course, if can be very beneficial for a dog to go to a trainer for some time to be worked with correctly but, if it were just lessons, I'd like my turn at handling my dog so I could learn, too. You learn best by doing.

 

The best clinicians I have seen will gladly handle my dog if I ask, and then help me to (try to) replicate what they have done. Of course, they usually watch me handle the dog first to see what we are doing and what our problems are, before they "take charge" and handle the dog and help me see how to do it right. They lead by example and then let me give it a try, and correct my mistakes.

 

My trainer now will take over if I ask so she can show me what she wants me (and the dog) to do, and then let me try my hand at it. But, she will never push in and take over, but rather advises me and lets me ask for help (or offers to show me).

 

This may not be very helpful, coming from another (and probably perpetual) novice. Best wishes!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

If I have a question about something my dog is doing, for sure I ask the experienced person to handle my dog. I have to be able to separate the issue from my dog's point of view, from the handling. and I can watch how the experienced trainer handles through whatever it is, or I can change what I'm doing so that the problem doesn't occur, if it becomes obvious that I am the ONLY problem.

 

I go to clinics with a particular clinician who I learn much more from watching him handle my dog, than trying to have him tell me what to do. He teaches that way better anyway. It took me years to learn what to watch for and by George I'm not going to waste my money bumbling out there myself when he can work through things much quicker than I can, or quicker than it would take to try to teach me what he wants to do with my dog.

 

Then there are instructors who are very, very good at verbalizing to me what I need to do, and so I learn more by plunging in and doing it myself. My pattern at lessons with Robin, for instance, is show her what Ted's doing at that moment, have her run through something herself, have her explain what she just did, then have me practice it the rest of the lesson. I'm super concrete in my thinking and if I can't make a picture of what needs to be done - complete with a map with "x marks the spot" - I'm lost. It will take me many repetitions of watching someone work, or listening to someone who doesn't communicate that way, to unravel how to apply it in everyday training of Ted.

 

So, um, sort answer - it depends?

[Sue R]

My pattern at lessons with Robin, for instance, is show her what Ted's doing at that moment, have her run through something herself, have her explain what she just did, then have me practice it the rest of the lesson.

 

That's what I was trying to say. I do understand a trainer that wants to start a dog by working him/her first, for some time or lessons, just to get the start right and the foundation laid. I think that is a very good approach.

[zenotri]

Thank you Sue & Rebecca. All good points.

 

I have to be able to separate the issue from my dog's point of view, from the handling. and I can watch how the experienced trainer handles through whatever it is, or I can change what I'm doing so that the problem doesn't occur, if it becomes obvious that I am the ONLY problem.

 

I think the above certainly applies to us. The issues we have that she needs to improve on are much more obvious when I am handling her. I think they still exist when he handles her, but he sees them coming & knows how to move himself, her and the sheep to prevent them. Things are also so much slower & that is something I still struggle with...when to move to change a situation & when I need to just wait it out and let her figure things out for herself. LOL, it's so hard, b/c it seems that there are times when doing nothing is the best option & other times when doing nothing is the worst option. It may take me forever to work out which is which .

 

So much to learn. Thank you for your advice.

[Pippin's person]

I also find it useful to mix things up with the trainer vs. me working the dog. Usually, now, I work him most of the time with the trainer giving tips and commentary. Sometimes, and I find I learn a lot this way, the trainer works the dog, but I'm walking along with her noting what she says when, what the dog does when she says it and what the sheep do in response. I find it makes it a lot easier for me to watch both the dog and the sheep if I'm not also trying to work a game plan.

 

I also pretty regularly board my dog with her for a couple of weeks so that he gets sustained, daily training from someone who knows what they're doing. It really is amazing to see how much more confident and relaxed he is when working with the trainer.

 

But, he and I are getting there too, slowly but surely. At a fun trial this week-end, I really concentrated on my voice and tone (following the thread from last week) and tried to make myself not sound panicky. Lo and behold, only one real slice--and guess when it came? When I sounded the most worried.

[hsnrs]

You asked a question I know something about (from experience anyway). We first used our trainer last year. Everything is great except my girl wants to always look for me at a trial. She quit listening to her trainer in her last trial and the trainer retired her. Wednesday will be only my second time to work my own dog. I recommend it because sometimes you want to trial where your trainer isn't going. That has happened to us several times. So, I want to learn for me and to trial my own dogs when and where we plan to be. JMO

Narita

[Sue R]

Narita - I don't mean to be rude but why is your trainer handling your dog in trials rather than you? Is your trainer doing all the training her/himself and not training you to handle your dog? Is that your goal, to have your trainer do the training and trial handling, or is your goal to learn how to train and handle your dog yourself? I am confused here.

[zenotri]

Thanks Narita. LOL, I don't think that will ever be an issue for us. Both my dogs TOTALLY forget I exist when they are being worked by someone else. My goal is to trial them myself...I am just getting some help in the early stages of training so that they form good habits.

 

I took a video last week & keep watching it over & over again. It is such a useful tool. I took some of him working Trim & then some of me. Each time I watch it I see different things, differences in our demeanors & differences in the way we are moving...and of course it reflects in the different way she works.

I think I will try to get some each week, it is going to be a good learning tool.

[zenotri]

At a fun trial this week-end, I really concentrated on my voice and tone (following the thread from last week) and tried to make myself not sound panicky. Lo and behold, only one real slice--and guess when it came? When I sounded the most worried.

 

Boy do I know that feeling! I have been working on this too & the person I am training with is not allowing me to raise my voice at all. I know it is not helpful to do so, but still find myself doing it sometimes. I'm going to go find that thread.

[stockdogranch]

Is that your goal, to have your trainer do the training and trial handling, or is your goal to learn how to train and handle your dog yourself? I am confused here.

 

Me, too

 

A

[hsnrs]

We decided in the beginning to have the trainer train and run our dogs. Because my sheep aren't dog broke and we don't have a round pen, we went with that plan. Now I'm getting a new round pen and plan to work with the sheep I have at home after lessons once a week. Hope to train and trial my own dogs in the future. We also have taken videos from day one and watch them a lot. Always something new to learn. Thanks. N

[Sue R]

I see. When you are at the trainer's (once a week now, I'm assuming), do you get into the field/pen and work with your dog under the trainer's supervision or is she still doing all the handling and training? I'm just trying to understand how you (and the trainer) are approaching this, and not to be contentious.

 

Your idea of taking videos is great. When I am at the trainer's, I don't have the opportunity to video as no one is there to do it and we tend to move from one field to another, so I envy you that you are able to get it down to review. What a great learning tool!

 

Best wishes with the new pen and the opportunity to work at home.

[TotallyTerry]

I am confused.

 

If your dog is ready to trial, why do you need a round pen for her?

 

At what level is the handler trialing your dog?

 

Please fill in the empty space between my ears.

[Laurae]

I believe hsnrs runs Aussies, which might answer some of the questions here and on the other thread about trainers in Arizona. (That's not meant to be a value judgment at all, but sine this is a border collie board, some folks might have assumed that she was talking about running border collies.)

[kelpiegirl]

I believe the dog has only worked for the trainer- at the trainer's place. The sheep that she has are not dog broke, and do not have the right area (as in fencing) for her to work the dogs at her own place- thus the need for a round pen. Dog broke versus not dog broke, along with inadequate fencing, can be, well, a disaster- as we all know.

 

 

I am confused.

 

If your dog is ready to trial, why do you need a round pen for her?

 

At what level is the handler trialing your dog?

 

Please fill in the empty space between my ears.

[Laurae]

That may all be true, but the question for me is why on earth would the trainer be trialing a dog? Is it to collect titles (a la other herding organizations) and/or perhaps to achieve breeding "qualifications" (and this certainly happens in USBCHA trialing)?

[kelpiegirl]

I can't speak for Narita. I will confess to "wishing" my trainer would run my dog at trials.... Of course, if my dog would just act for me like she does for others who truly know what they are doing, then, that wouldn't come up

[Laurae]

I will confess to "wishing" my trainer would run my dog at trials

 

 

 

I will confess to wishing I had a trainer at all right now...sigh...

[Sue R]

True confessions here - I wish I could afford to get to my trainer with some reasonable regularity (in other words, I wish she wasn't located so far from me) and wish I would get my act in gear to get some sheep fencing and shelter so I could work here at home on something other than a cow herd.

[kelpiegirl]

You know what my grandfather says about wishing? Wish in one hand, spit in the other, which one gets filled first? All you farmers should appreciate that one! (my gfather was a farmer)

[Shoofly]

I'll confess to wishing i could train dogs and people full time! Oh, and have a bigger flock on a bigger place...

 

I really love seeing lots of different dogs and trying to puzzle them out.

[stockdogranch]

And I'd wish for more space, more calves (and, of course, no need for the day job so I could also just work dogs all day)...or, at least to live closer to Sue and to work her cows,

 

A

[Sue R]

Anna - I would love it if you were closer. I'd trade cow time for lessons and sheep time. I love my trainer but at almost three hours each way, I can hardly afford to go there once a month any more. Plus, she doesn't have cows so I can't get to train on cattle - but she does have the sheep, that I don't have, and they are terrific.

 

If you move this way, we can make ice cream!

[kelpiegirl]

Okay, I am starting to sing "Come on Get Happy" and picture all of us piled into the partridge family bus, and singing along...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40egogo4kcY

 

And I'd wish for more space, more calves (and, of course, no need for the day job so I could also just work dogs all day)...or, at least to live closer to Sue and to work her cows,

 

A