Different types of border collies?

[number_guest]

When I got my dog, the guy selling it to me had two kinds of border collies. One was bigger and more muscular looking, which he said there weren't alot left of(in the world). Is there is a specific name for these?

[MaggieDog]

I've never heard of two types of border collies other than those that actively work and those that compete in the show ring when it comes to dogs being bred from.

 

In working dogs, appearance really doesn't matter - it's the working ability that counts.

[Kat's Dogs]

Dazzle's father was imported from Scotland and he is a great working dog, and he is bigger and much more muscular then her Mom (who was bred in the US).

 

I found while searching for a pup that the Scotland/imported dogs seem bigger then the dogs around here.

 

All the dogs (big and small) that I am talking about are both working and have never heard of a show ring. Show BCs (Barbie Collies) tend to be bigger, more puffy, and fatter then working ones (which TEND - but not always - to seem a little leaner and lighter on their feet) - maybe that is what the guy was talking about?

[Snorri the Priest]

Two types? Hmmmm, well..... I say sometimes that the farm which produced my two bred two types - little "hard men", and total wimps!

 

My Kali is a little hard man. He don't take no **** from no-one.

 

My Snorri will run away from moths.

 

Probably not the types you mean, though!

 

Snorri

[Dixie_Girl]

Jackson's dam came over from Ireland, and his sire was a3rd generation pup. He has some Austrailian lines in him too. And he is big, tall, weighs 46lbs now. Don't know if this matters but here it is.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I've heard something from conformation people about different types. There's an old book that describes different lines and attempts to describe "types" within the Border collie breed, which dates back to a larger movement within animal breeds to identify, classify, and "purify" lines - even among livestock(a la eugenics). Anyway, this book is often quoted but I've never seen any evidence from primary sources that the physical regional differences described are accurate - quite the opposite, from examining old photographs and such.

 

Anyway, the two types most often recalled (I think there were actually four described in the book) are "Northumberland" which was supposedly big, big coated dogs, heavy boned, that worked big sheep and cattle. The other was the lithe, quick footed, smooth coated "Whitehope Nap" type that worked fast native type sheep. What I've heard recently is that show dogs recall the "Northumberland" type, which is why they look different from the lines favored by trialers because they were "just" farm dogs.

 

This sounds great but farm dogs throughout the breed's history, from one end of the UK to the other - and across the water - have always included Border collies of every shape and size. The founding dogs ranged in size and coat and color as much as today, if not more so - Loos II, a founding bitch owned by William Wallace, for instance, was "bare coated" with mismatched ears and almost all black.

 

A quick review of "Blue Riband" will reveal the first Supreme winners ranging from small and lithe, to squarish, to big and brutish. Plus you'll see the elegant moderate size and shape and classic coat so sought today by the conformation folks, but seen in any region you can name. You can also glance through Eric Halsall's Sheepdogs My Faithful Friends, which has a section arranged by region, and the pictures alone will quickly debunk any notion of regional or even functional physical differences.

 

This is the long answer, I guess - - the short answer would be, in any breed, beware the breeder who says, this dog that I just happen to have here, is "very rare." And probably will cost more, therefore . . .it's almost always a scam!

[Rhborder]

There were four types, Herdsman's Tommy(I think) and Wiston Cap types as well, I find these a bit farfetched myself, LOL

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Thanks, I thought one of the others was Wiston Cap but couldn't remember the other one. And most people who bring this up mostly just mention the first two. It's odd, because Nap was Cap's great-grandfather, while Herdman's Tommy contributed heavily to several of Cap's ancestors. I'm not sure how one could claim they are distinct "types" - farfetched indeed.

 

I don't think I can get away with claiming this is a humble opinion at this point, eh? Someone get me a stepstool - I'm having a bit of trouble getting off this high horse.

[missing lacy's impish son]

**When I got my dog, the guy selling it to me had two kinds of border collies. One was bigger and more muscular looking, which he said there weren't alot left of(in the world). Is there is a specific name for these?**

 

 

The only two 'rare-types' that I know of are not really physically different enough to define them from other Border collies. One 'type' per-se is a 'hill-dog'. The majority are known to have larger feet and be a bit bigger. The hill-dog is scarce although they are extremely good HONEST working dogs. It is said that in the course of dog trialing they usually lacked the pretty 'style' and were almost bred out. They were also somewhat independant thinkers because they had to work in areas where the shepherd could not get to. The larger feet and longer legs allowed the dog better balance on cliff faces to get the sheep. The main thing that differentiates them from other Border Collies is there attitude. They have a tendency to move in a more upright manner. If they suddenly jumped up from a 'clap' they would send the sheep right off the cliff face. They are usually in the wrong position on a cliff to use "eye" adequately so they use there very presence as a menace to move the sheep. There are a lot of Border Collies with 'hill-dog' in them but few who have the presence of one.

The other is a dog called a 'lurcher'. Supposedly these dogs were also bred to be taller and more muscular to be able to move out on flatter terain a little better. A 'lurcher' is thought to have some sort of sight-hound way back in it's lines.

It is too bad that Arthur Allen has passed away. I have heard it said that some of his great dogs had 'lurcher' lines. Only he would have known.

I do know that my first Border Collie was Arthur Allen breeding and he had a 'hyper' gear. If he went into it he would 'lurch'.

It is extremely different than the usual galloping gait. He would throw his ears flush to his head,pull back onto his haunches and 'lurch' forward into a double gallop, usually from a normal gallop. He kept his body as streamlined as possible and then would actually whip forward like a greyhound or whippet does. He also had extremely long legs with a finer bone structure than a lot of Border Collies too. Although tall he wasn't really a big dog. His prime weight was only about 47-48 pounds while he was 21 or so inches at the shoulder.

[missing lacy's impish son]

oops- almost forgot!!! One of the reasons that hill dogs are rare is also because of a distemper outbreak. The dogs working the hills were more isolated from innoculations and there was an innoculation shortage in the UK. I can't remember when this happened, but it wiped out several good lines. It was a long time ago though.

[Snorri the Priest]

Dunno if this is relevant or not......

 

My first ever BC, "Glen", was a rescue. I have no idea what his background was. But he was a Scottish mainland-born BC, and a fair size (not huge, but quite big).

 

Kali and Snorri, however, are Orkney-born, and a lot smaller than Glen was.

 

Up here in the "Northern Isles", there is a tendency for all locally-born animals to be smaller than their UK mainland counterparts (it may have something to do with the cooler climate????).

 

Even horses are affected (viz. the world-famous Shetland Pony), which is partly why so many breeding cattle are "bought-in", to keep the size (and hence the price) up.

 

Glen used to "lope" along at a steady, even pace when he was out for a run. Kali and Snorri are sprinters, more lithe and agile - they zoom everywhere, and can turn on a dime, often in mid-air (apparently). They have shorter, softer coats, too.

 

In Orkney, some of the commoner wild animals have local differences, too - for instance, the Orkney vole is sufficiently different from the usual UK vole to be classed as a different species, although I gather that it can cross-breed.

 

So, if we could get a bit more sunshine here, we could re-name the place "Galapagos"????

 

Snorri

[Eileen Stein]

AFAIK, a "hill dog" is one who works or has worked the hill -- the huge open expanse of hills on which sheep roam in parts of the UK. To say that a dog is a hill dog says something about its experience and training, but doesn't say anything about its physical characteristics.

 

A "lurcher" is a crossbred dog used for poaching. Glyn Jones writes in his book A Way of Life:

 

Father always had dogs around the smithy, with one or two more favoured ones being part of the family, and, of course, there would always be poaching dogs such as his tremendous lurcher, Black, amongst them. Lurchers were the best dogs for poaching and they were produced by crossing a greyhound with a Border Collie--the greyhound for his speed and the collie for a thick, warm coat, stamina and brains. These dogs were about the size of a greyhound but were much more versatile and were greatly sought after.

 

Number, there is no name for a bigger and more muscular looking border collie, and without knowing who your breeder was, I couldn't comment further.

[Eileen Stein]

So, if we could get a bit more sunshine here, we could re-name the place "Galapagos"????

 

 

Very interesting. I'd love to visit the Orkneys someday -- especially if you could get a bit more sunshine.

[Snorri the Priest]

Originally posted by Eileen Stein:

Very interesting. I'd love to visit the Orkneys someday -- especially if you could get a bit more sunshine.

And very welcome you'd be, too!

 

It's not so much that we lack sunshine (in summer, anyway), but that we are over-supplies with wind! Summer nights are so light that you can read outside all night: it just doesn't get all that warm! Nevertheless, Orkney's regional income derives largely from tourism, and a lot of that is repeat business!

 

You never know, you might even see a Border Collie working! Round about me, however, the work seems to consist of keeping the farmer company on his tractor!

 

August is the time - it's still warm(ish) and that's when all the agricultural shows are held (everything gets shown - from dogs and cattle through to potted tomatoes!). I used to show Kali at these until he retired, and I've never been able to work out what standards (if any) were being used! For me and Mrs S, it was mostly a question of being seen to be trying to socialise with the community, although going home with the best dog AND a wee piece of ribbon to prove it was always pleasant!

 

This is hardly Barbados, in summer, but it can be acceptably pleasant and there is a lot to see and do (especially if you have a dog). Check this out - http://www.freewebs.com/cyberpriest/

 

Winter, on the other hand, is a prolonged period of sustained ferocity: the sun is up for about three hours a day at best (we are north of Moscow here, 57 degrees) and the wind can top 200 mph.

 

The Border Collies that pepper the landscape would probably please the "herding" faction, as opposed to the "Barbie" faction - most of them are farm dogs, and small-scale farmers don't carry passengers: the dog does its share, or it's "Goodnight Vienna" :eek: It's only the occasional nitwit like me who gives an Orkney BC a "free ride"!

 

I used to live in Edinburgh, where a BC was a rare sight: here, they must make up about 50% of the dog population, because locally they are regarded as "real" dogs (as opposed to the "fluffy pet" kind). One of the (very insignificant) reasons I chose a BC was the ease with which I could get one. And the suicidal ease with which I got the second :eek:

 

Yup, it's a great place to visit (and a great place to live, once you get used to the schizophrenic weather :eek: )

 

Snorri

:cool:

(shades optimistic)

[AK dog doc]

Evidently Ali didn't read that part of the book where BC-cross lurchers are supposed to have a thick warm coat....