My BC attacked me........need help fast

[doubleofarm]

My first thought is a thyroid issue. Many dogs with thyroid problems (esp. hypo) show signs of unexplained aggression. Ask your vet to run a 6 panel thyriod test not just the basic as you really need to get a good look at each level and see where he is. Hypothyroidism is very easily and inexpensively treated. If you would like more information I would be happy to help you get the test run by Dr. Jeanne Dodds of Hemopet, the country's foremost expert on canine thyroid disorders. My private email is osci@aol.com.

[jvw]

There is a neurological condition where a dog will viciously attack without ANY notice and then act completely normal as if nothing has happened. Mostly in Spaniels but it can occur in other breeds. I would definitely be taking a trip to the vet!

Jennifer

[rosefarm]

Thyroid is a definite medical condition that would cause that, its worth the blood test. Though I thought it was hyper and not hypo. I thought hypo was the lazy overweight, and hyper the opposite. (I could and probably am wrong, I usually am)

 

Good luck

--Denise

[Allie+Tess&Kipp]

There is a neurological condition where a dog will viciously attack without ANY notice and then act completely normal as if nothing has happened.

A neighbor had this problem with a dog long ago. For days it would be fine, then it would attack without any notice or reason. Sometimes the same trigger, sometimes a different trigger. There was no cure. The dog was so wonderful otherwise that they dealt with it a long time.

 

I agree that a thyroid panel (a full one) should be checked. Some here will laugh over a thyroid causing everything according to Jean Dodds, but I think it is worth a look. To come on so suddenly, though, it might be another medical issue and it might not have anything to do with his neck--it could be his shoulder, his back, his tooth, etc. A vet should be consulted, just in case.

 

I also agree with trying to figure out what is different about the 4:00 a.m. situation compared to the rest of the day's walk and interactions.

 

And I also agree with stopping the 4:00 a.m. walks. They should not be necessary unless you yourself enjoy getting up at that time and prefer to do it.

 

If you feel the dog is growling like no tomorrow and is attacking you, this is probably not rough play. That's just my opinion. With both of my dogs, their play growls are completely different from their other growls and I know which is which.

 

You have a lot of wonderful advice above. If you want to know more about what behaviorists do versus trainers, please ask here. And also you can ask for recommendations of good behaviorists and trainers. Lots of folks here have worked with both and can probably recommend someone who can help you after you have ruled out possible medical problems.

 

Allie + Tess & Kipp

http://weebordercollie.com

[doubleofarm]

I think that neuro condition is called Rage Syndrome.

[Eileen Stein]

I hesitate to post after reading your response to Wendy, and a lot of this has been said by others, but here goes:

 

1. Do not do the same thing tomorrow. Whatever is triggering this behavior will trigger it again. Either dispense with the 4:00 am potty walks (it would be highly unusual if a 9-mo-old dog couldn't make it through the night), or introduce variations in how you do it (Wendy's chain suggestion, going out a different door, having the lights on in the room you enter, not attempting to remove his leash, etc.) to try to pinpoint the factor that's setting him off. Going through the exact same routine at a different time of day and seeing what happens would also help in troubleshooting this.

 

2. Pups do not stay the same as they move into adolescence, any more than kids do. Your dog is reaching the stage in life where problem behaviors develop -- he's about to become a rebellious teen-ager. The fact that he's been a meek and loving puppy does not mean he'll stay that way. It's not enough for your dog to love you, he also has to respect you, and you've reached the point where you have to elicit that respect. I mean no criticism of you or him in saying this -- it's just a fact. If you can avoid thinking about this in terms of whether he loves you or not, it would help. I'm sure your dog is well trained, in the sense of understanding commands like "sit," and sitting when you tell him to. But will he come on command even when he doesn't want to, for example? That tells more about whether he understands that he must subordinate his wishes to yours, and practice in subordinating his wishes to yours is a good thing at this stage in his development.

 

3. I've left until now the question of why he's doing this, because as Julie says, it's pretty tough for us to figure that out without seeing him. My guess is that he's ready for the day to begin, doesn't want any more down time, wants to play, and doesn't feel like deferring to what you want. He is refusing to come in and settle down, and trying to engage you in rough play -- insisting on it, in fact. Have you seen how he acts playing with other dogs? If so, that might shed some light on whether this is the right interpretation; if not, you might be surprised at how much it would look like attacking and fighting. The second most likely explanation is that something in the environment too subtle for you to notice was different the mornings this happened (or perhaps only the first morning), and it scared him. You might try to review and see if you can come up with anything that would fit this description. Does he tend to have the "spooky" streak that many BCs have, and shy or bark at anything out of the ordinary? Again, you would be surprised what a panicked dog can be like when he's blindly fighting for what might seem like his life. If neither of these reasons sound right, it certainly could be something medical, although the odds of that are probably lower.

 

4. Where did he come from? Do you know what his parents are like?

 

Everyone posting is hoping to be of help to you. Good luck.

[PSmitty]

Excellent post, Eileen.

[Coloradogirl]

I have to agree, vet first and then if nothing shows up there I would say play, then the fact that you ran and jumped on the table makes it alot of fun for the dog.

 

Had it been my dog I would have barked back in a loud mean gruff growly voice. "KNOCK IT OFF" and probably would have taken him to the ground (But it just depends on how I was reading the dog at the time). I had a heeler that would play this way unproked, she would decide that she was feeling a little froggy and come up and grab an arm, a shirt tail, pants or what ever was there and growl and shake her head if you got loose from her she would grab again, she would shred things just like you described.

 

Good luck.

[Meg's mum]

For what its worth, I've learned something this year.

 

What makes this board so valuable to us all is that we rely on the intelligence, experience and passion of the committed core, the faithful community and the influx of new people that care enough about their dog to seek this board out.

 

Those charactersitics make it imperative that we all try to remember four things:

 

1 - Text does not convey 'tone'and meaning well unless wrought by very deft hands or mangled by a brutish club...burp...

 

2 - All of us are here for a higher purpose than our own pride. Who cares if we 'feel' insulted, justifialby or not. It is ours and others' dogs that are important. The only useful 'retort' from any of us here for their sake is 'clarification'. ( What afterall is meant by a 'hug'? Meg on inviation will slide up on my husband's Buddha belly when he's in his chair so that her paws rest on either side of his neck. Her normally pricked ears lay flat and she will rest her cheek against his, lick his ear and if he bends his head down to her she will put her forhead against his. This is hardly dominant beahvior. But when she puts her paw in my mouth because she doesn't like the sounds I'm making....I'd say she's wearing her high heeled boots.) Behavior is complex and subtly motivated however overtly displayed.

 

3 -There are strong opinions, sometimes opposing opinions, that can not be sorted into fact. Any two animal behaviorists, veterinarians, herding coaches, or trainers will disagree on something. I personally put on my flame retardant hair shirt whenever I mention that I rough play with Meg or that I trained her to a soft mouth, allowing her to put her teeth on me without pressure.

 

4 - "Everyone posting here is tyring to be of help" to the breed, individual dogs and the people that care for them...usually in that order. But beneath the passion, there is enormous empathy. BC's would have nothing to do with us if we weren't capable of that.

[Kitch]

Some quick thoughts:

 

As was said, something is different about the 4am walk. My first thought was that there is a medical reason. If there is pain in the joints of the neck, back, etc it might be worse in the mornings. I know I am stiffer/more sore in the am than the rest of the day.

 

The point about watching the hackles is a good one as well, however I would caution that just because the hackles are raised, doesn't mean the dog has a negative intent. Raised hackles means a dog is in a state of arousal, which can mean play or aggression. A dog with raised hackles may never have any negative intent, but they certainly bear watching.

 

Finally, the dog *is* at an age where they are testing boundaries and blowing off training is not uncommon. There is a reason why most BCs that come into rescue are in the adolescent phase. They are pushing their limits, challenging authority. I agree that in addition to a visit to a vet and a behaviorist, NILIF is a really good place to start.

[Brandon M]

BC-owner, what happened this morning when you brought him in? was it the same? just curious.

[Carson & Donna]

I agree with everything that has been said here so far, but I did have a teensy idea ( maybe not a good one *shrugs*) that I thought I would throw out for discussion.

 

Animals in general will respond to low ( and high) frequency electrical changes or pulses when we as humans cannot detect them. For instance, they can detect weather changes, storms coming, earthquakes etc way before we have the ability to sense it physically.

 

The reason I bring this up is the fact that it is a "4am" happening and not other times or random times of the day. Perhaps there is an alarm system or an electrical fence or whatnot that is "on" at that time in the wee mornings and not at other times? THe "dew" factor "shorting" out something? It may or may not be a "cause" but a contributing factor?

 

I have seen serious changes in behavior before under these circumstances. Perhaps a look around to see either what is going on in your house or a neighbors that might be a culprit to this change? *shrugs*

 

Whatever the cause, I hope it resolves quickly for you and your dog and I wish you the best

 

*throws my two cents in the pot for what it is worth and leaves quietly*

 

with kind regards

 

Donna

[Alicia]

Originally posted by BC-owner:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wendy V:

It sounds beyond rough play to me. I'm picking up on your words, "upon entering the house", which preceeded both incidents. Do you think that your dog didn't recognize you in this new situation, thinking you a stranger entering the house after dark? It is a stretch, I know, but I have a bitch that doesn't recognize me when I have on a new hat, or when I am walking up to the house from a new direction. I take the hat off, kneel down, call her to me, and then she realizes her mistake and is all love again. It is a behavior peculiar to this dog and no other that I own.

 

Regardless of the reason for the "attack", it is a behavior that must be stopped immediately. First of all, I would not set up the situation again, i.e., not potty the dog at night. Or, if you must potty the dog, change the circumtances, such as, attached the dog to a chain that you can reach from the door, then go potty yourself, and then bring the dog in.

 

Secondly, I would not allow the dog to put any paws or teeth on person ever. When the dog is giving you a "hug", you are greeting the dog as an equal, not as a leader. Reclaim your leadership role, and keep the dog off of you. No rough play allowed either. Begin an obedience class immediately. It sounds as if you are over-loving this dog and not giving it the discipline it requires.

 

Thirdly, do not ever turn your back on an attacking dog. This action conceeds your submissiveness and tends to provoke even greater ferocity.

 

Your dog is young and this totally unacceptable behavior can be changed. However, it will require you to change your behavior first. This is a warning sign that you cannot ignore. Deal with it effectively and you will have a great companion.

 

Good luck to you.

Your first paragraph makes absolutly no sense. If upon entering the house I am removing the leash, Wouldnt you think that we went out together? and also walked back into the house together? Why would the dog not recognize me? As a matter of fact, we have taken a walk everyday at 4 A.M. since he was 11 weeks old. Sounds like you didnt even read the whole post, you just wanted to jump all over someone. I am also very sorry that my dog gave me a hug. I didnt mean to ruin your day. On a side note my dog so happens to be very, and I mean very well trained for his age. That is the mystery here. I dont have time to read everyone's posts but...

 

I'm sorry. but the points Wendy made here are perfectly reasonable. I believe she understood completely that you were coming in with the dog. Whether you came in with your dog or not, a change in lighting can make them confused, especially if they may have a potential eye problem. Whether or not you have been doing this for weeks, months or years, sometimes dogs do that, and they get confused.. and aggressive.

 

As far as the hugging goes. Hugging isnt bad, but it sounds as if this hug may be initiated on his terms and therefore could be him asserting his dominance. Dogs dont think of hugs like we do until they understand that they are not the boss, and you are actually the one initiating the behavior.

 

Just calm down, Wendy was simply trying to help you. I agree with her. I'd do similar things if in that situation.

Take to vet first

change the situation, do not accompany him outside, if you potty him at 4am at all.

Start teaching a command, "down-stay" works well, make your dog wait at each side of the door. My pup isnt even allowed to come through the door until I give the command.

 

I am worried that you are now starting to fear your dog, this will only help the behavior. You said that you didnt even attempt to remove the leash the second time all day long.

 

Personally, wehther play or not, I think this dog is dominating you. Whether he is very well trained, a world champion in obidience could even turn this way if testing, and winning, at dominance issues.

[Eileen Stein]

Forgot to mention that -- you should try not to be afraid of him, and if you are afraid of him you should try not to let it show. It is counter-productive.

 

If you are going to do anything like the 4:00 am walk as you've been accustomed to doing it, you need to take advance precautions to make yourself feel safe and therefore not scared. If you have the kind of door hardware that forms a loop, perhaps you should thread your end of the leash through it as you walk back in the house, taking hold of the end again as you close the door and take a couple steps forward. Then when you bend over the dog to take his leash off, if he goes for you, you can pull sharply on the leash which will result in his being pulled away from you toward the door, so he cannot reach you. If you just have an ordinary round doorknob, you could fasten a ring securely to it (or to something else on/by the door), so you could do the same thing. That will give you a chance to wait at a safe distance while he calms down, and maybe give you an opportunity by watching him to figure out what's going on. If he's just being obstreperous, this may well make him think twice about it.

 

If you think this won't work for some reason, figure out something comparable.

[Laakea]

Hi,

I am thinking too, that he doesn't like the fact that you go back to bed after the 4 am walk and he wants to start his day. If that is the only time this happens, maybe that is why. The other times you take him out you are still availble to him, but you go back to bed after the 4 am walk. I think it might be the "teenage" behavior...he wants to start his day!

Debbie

[jay7347]

Some great suggestions here. My feeling, with a teenage BC in the house and twenty minutes before we go to intermediate obedience, is that your dog is testing limits as to who is boss. First of all it would be best to rule out medical. But, in the meantime and afterwards "imho" NEVER back away from your dog when they get aggressive towards you. A dog shouldn't be allowed to get away with that kind of behavior. They need to see you as provider and boss. I would at the very least do a low toned growling "No!" in response and probably put the dog on his side by the neck at the most. Above all don't yell, scream or act too excited. Just be calm and in control. Look, your dog is trying to see where he fits in right now. Later, when he becomes a teenager this behavior, if left undealt with will probably become much worse.

 

But that's just my feelings. I believe in lots of exercise and play, lots of behavior rules and no limit on the love. Hang in there!

-jay

[border_collie_crazy]

it sounds like play to me as well, sometimes Misty seems downright vicious when she gets into it, she has normal rough play and insane rough play where she seems to have lost her mind lol in those times she runs around hackles raised snarling, growling and flying at me with her teeth bared, when she gets in this made it can be frightening, she is not actually out to hurt me, she just gets carried away and looses her control for a short time.

[Alicia]

in reference to what jay said. I put my dogs down "scruff of the neck on side" quite often. When they are really naughty, when they have been told repeatedly something and tehy continue. At some point if you growl and look them in the eye with a dominant posture, ie standing over them leaning slightly down towards them in an almost mean posture, my dogs will lay down and roll to their side.

Dont get me wrong, I dont abuse my dogs, but they are very strongly dominated.

[BC-owner]

I want to thank everyone for there comments and suggestions. Today we did not take our early morning walk. We started the day at about 7 this morning. The boy was definatly a little quiet. He knew I was a little late. We started the day off with some fetch out back. We continued along with our normanl routine, as always I could not stop thinking about how great this guy is. We went for the last boat ride of the season. He had a great time and got to play with his friends at the beach. No leash problems at all today. He was also fine with putting on his life jacket. We arrived home for some more fetch. He is now quietly rsting up, and getting ready for the next adventure. Once again I want to thank everyone for there help and suggestions. I have been a long time lurker here.

[FlyByNight]

I put my dogs down "scruff of the neck on side" quite often.

I just wanted to chime in that this is often a very dangerous thing to do to a dog, and frequently ends up in a bite. It is a complete misinterpretation of wolf behavior, and is all the riskier in an already aggressive animal.

 

I would strongly caution against trying this with your dog, BC-Owner.

[BC-owner]

I would also like to say that I am going to have his neck, and health checked out. I did notice that he had a piece of rice stuck on his fur just under his neck. Along with his food last week I gave him a small amount of white rice. Well one little piece must have stuck to his fur, just under his neck. It dried up and sort of matted into his fur. It is also a spot where he cannot easliy reach. So on a positive note I hope all this grief was simply caused over a tiny piece of rice. This boy loves to keep himself in tip top shape.

[AK dog doc]

Just a general FYI on the thyroid thing, since someone brought it up...

 

In dogs it is nearly always HYPOthyroid, in cats almost always HYPERthyroid. Hypothyroidism CAN cause weird agressions and strange behavioral anomalies, but it's quite unusual to find hypothyrodism in dogs this young, and generally when you do find it in juveniles they're obviously physically abnormal, since abnormal thyroid function in young, growing animals leads to improper development on a physical level.

 

Now we return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

[Wendy V]

"Once again I want to thank everyone for there help and suggestions."

 

YOU'RE WELCOME!!!!!!

[mydogMilton]

Now, now, now... let us not try to get to hot headed

 

"What makes this board so valuable to us all is that we rely on the intelligence, experience and passion of the committed core, the faithful community and the influx of new people that care enough about their dog to seek this board out."

Excellant point!

 

First off if a dog was attacking me I would try NOT to be scared. Not saying you were at all, just mentioning that posture and mind set are total animal communication levels. If he ever, in any circumstance, becomes violent again; pull yourself to full body height, stand your ground, and assert that YOU are the leader and will never stand for behaviour like this. Since pack leaders in the wild never let their "lowers" challenge them it makes good sense that we shouldn't either. If you're worried about hurting your dog and don't want to go for the "neck" punishment (I do for capital crimes) you can at least show him you will not stand for this by body posture and tone.

 

When my BC was growling at my little brother, over toys and food, I got sick of it and began to look for the oppurtune time to get my point across. When he finally growled I lowered my voice roughly picked him up and seperated him from the "pack" (family). Turns out that when I growled at him my own family pushed their chairs away from the table they were so scared of me. I never phiscally hurt Milton, I just proved my domiance and disapprovel to the full. He never challenged my little brother again.

[Betsy]

Originally posted by Eileen Stein:

If you are going to do anything like the 4:00 am walk as you've been accustomed to doing it, you need to take advance precautions to make yourself feel safe and therefore not scared. If you have the kind of door hardware that forms a loop, perhaps you should thread your end of the leash through it as you walk back in the house, taking hold of the end again as you close the door and take a couple steps forward. Then when you bend over the dog to take his leash off, if he goes for you, you can pull sharply on the leash which will result in his being pulled away from you toward the door, so he cannot reach you. If you just have an ordinary round doorknob, you could fasten a ring securely to it (or to something else on/by the door), so you could do the same thing. That will give you a chance to wait at a safe distance while he calms down, and maybe give you an opportunity by watching him to figure out what's going on.

I think this is an ingenious solution. How creative! Of course, I am glad that I would never have to do such a thing with mine (he's the MOST submissive dog I have ever actually met) but I will definitly slip this one in the back pocket for future reference - maybe to suggest it to some of my friends who aren't so...shall we say...dog savy?

 

See Eileen, this is why you're the teacher (along with many of you others like Rebecca, Julie, Melanie, Mark, AK Dog Doc (by the way, do you have a real name? ), etc that I read/lurk from), and we're the students.