Dang there are some nice dogs out there....

[kelpiegirl]

Now that I have passed the 8 year mark in my interest in sheepdogs- no, not trialing myself, but watching and listening intently, I have come to see that there seems to be a good crop of very good dogs out there. You know, dogs that just do what they are asked, with additional style, confidence, good attitude, and constantly step up to the plate when asked. I saw a couple of dogs recently, that were still young, but I was sort of awed. Has the overall quality of BC's improved over the years, or is it the training/handling is better- or both?

[1sheepdoggal]

My dogs have always been better working dogs than I have been as a trainer/handler. They were born knowing so much more than I will learn in a lifetime. But they teach me every day.

[GOOSEDOGS]

Julie, I think that more people in the US are starting to understand more about "lines" and such. They are exploring certain crosses instead of just breeding 2 BC's together and hoping for the best. I for one am not a particularly gifted handler Started in the game to late and developing stock sense is hard to come by unless you live it. I believe the best handlers have a remarkable amount of stock sense. That said, I love reserching pedigrees! I love to see what crosses have done well and which were duds. I wish that I had time and room for all the breeding research I would love to do. I have seen some really good handlers out there that have never produced anything to write home about. They just don't seem to get that part of the equation. But there are some people in the past few years that have taken great interest in breeding lines and it has proven very successful.

Joan

[kelpiegirl]

Thanks girls- too bad we didn't hear from any others... Well, I stand by what I say. There are some good dogs- and I wholeheartedly agree with you Darci- they are better than we are- maybe by the time we are 60 we will begin to achieve their understanding. And Joan- yep, I think people are being wise in breeding, and seeing what works- but I don't know an iota of BC breeding- still, it can't be by accident that the dogs have improved so much over the years.

[Deacon Dog]

What exactly led you to this conclusion? The collective opinion of the old-timers I've spoken to is the dogs have gotten weaker. And my personal observation is the breeding trend is more toward out crossing certain trial dogs as opposed to programs that consistently produce lines with particular characteristics.

[Smokjbc]

Hi,

 

Is it possible that we are not seeing better dogs but, instead, more dogs? Trialing has become very popular- most trials fill up several months in advance and the bigger ones may turn opening day entries away, they fill so fast. I have only been in this for about 14 years, but I don't see that much of a difference in the really good dogs- maybe a difference in handling and competition but just the sheer numbers will demand that a better dog is on top than would have been successful before.

[GOOSEDOGS]

For my part I'm not looking at trial winners. I know some handlers that win all the time and I wouldn't touch their dogs. I watch and listen and see who moves what type of sheep without stress, who can move fighter ewes without resulting in cheap shots, that sort of thing. And yes, there are a lot of the softer type dog around, but some people I have spoken with are line breeding for the type THEY like. And that is what the shepherds of old did. You will here" Henderson" breeding lines and such. Laura Hicks is putting out some nice dogs and it will be known as her line shortly I believe. Not everyone is doing this, but some people are catching on. Joan

[1sheepdoggal]

I recently have been doing some studying on line breeding, and, for many years I had been opposed to it, mostly because I was uninformed and simply parroting what others had said. But as I look into lines and dogs and how they were bred and why, I am starting to see that there is quite a bit of merit in line breeding. Though I wouldnt attempt it myself, I think that those that have the knowledge, are doing some justice by thier choices and it is showing in the dogs.

[kelpiegirl]

Goody- some conversation

Perhaps it isn't the dogs- it's the handling???

[Mona Howard]

I don't think most of the people breeding for stockwork today are actually looking at linebreeding.

I think they are mostly looking for a dog that is strong in the area where their dog could

stand some improvment. That said, I have always liked the Thomas' Don dogs and if

I found two dogs I liked equally I would pick the T's Don dog. That's just a personal

preference. Sometimes you find a dog that "nicks" particularily well with yours and you would

go to that blood again.

I have heard some of the seasoned handlers that have been around for quite some time comment

on a topic I find interesting. And that is that some people are breeding for a dog that excels moving

five sheep around while staying in the lines and is a fantastic trial dog. Some contend this dog couldn't

cut it as a hill dog or what-have-you. Some say they are every bit as good as a farmers dog that

goes all day doing a 100 different tasks. A dog the farmer/sheperd couldn't do without. I see both

side of the story. Anyone else?

[1sheepdoggal]

Is it that thats all they are training for is a trial dog, and dont know if the dog bred has the potential to do a long hard days work all week because the dog has not been tested other than on a trial feild? I was having a conversation with a gal the other day, and she told me that she has been told that like cures like and if you want a dog with more power, breeding to a dog with more power will bring out the worst points of both parents so you breed two like dogs together. Im not so sure I agree with this, though Ive not bred enough litters of BC's to make anything but a philisophical comment as opposed to a educated guess. But I would think you would want to breed a dog with stronger qualities where the mate has those same qualities, only weaker, to enhance the overall qualities??

[kelpiegirl]

Hi Darci

I think this is where line breeding does work well- when you know you have what you want in a dog bred a certain way; breed it to another similarly bred- then you have a good chance of getting the qualities you have seen, and want.

If a dog is inherently weak, not sure it should be bred- even if it is a great trial dog.

Many times dogs are seemingly weak because they just haven't been exposed to needing to use their power. They are constantly pushed off the sheep, told to get out, and need to learn that they can, and should have the inborn confidence to get in there, and get the job done. Confidence breeds confidence in a manner of speaking....

[juliepoudrier]

As for handling, I think at least some handlers recognize the "type" of dog they work best with and so consistently choose that type (that doesn't mean they can breed that type, but they know what lines they work successfully with). I know I do, and like Mona, the type I like goes back to John Thomas' Don. Those dogs just work well for me and with me. If you know where to look (i.e., pay attention to breeding programs, especially those of the long- or old-timers), you can find consistently line-bred dogs, but it can mean looking for dogs other than just the latest trial winners.

 

I can't speak to quality because I think what's a good dog depends on who's working it and what their needs are. I do think that larger trials and better handling and training has made trial dogs better at trialing and handlers better at handling, but I don't know if this is having an overall positive effect on the breed as a whole. But then there are also folks who are sticking to their breeding programs (for whatever qualities they deem important) and not necessarily just breeding trial winner to trial winner, so I think at least diversity is being kept in the breed (which means that a handler can still find dogs that suit him or her)....

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I consider "lines" to consist of not only judicious use of true line breeding (relatives built upon each other), but also "styles" used to strengthen those lines, outside the family circle. Complementary lines do a lot to ensure that traits will be passed down consistently, while careful outcrossing ensures the health of the lines, and balance of those traits.

 

The "old-timers", judging from the old pedigrees, did this as naturally as breathing. I suspect a lot of it had to do with their being raised to understand breeding from the standpoint of performance in livestock. The same principles apply. J. M. Wilson, that great breeder of Border Collies, was also a breeder of Scottish Blackface that were in demand all over the UK. Templeton raised high performance cattle and I believe the family still maintains those lines?

 

I think we lack this perspective today. The majority of us haven't been "in" livestock from birth. There are certainly many good breeders out there still, but it's geographically more difficult to achieve the same balance in lines that once was attainable among local farmers, people in one's region of trialing, and on the road at the big trials. This makes it harder to experiment - it's more of a risk - and it's only through trial and error that one can test the consistency of one's breeding.

 

I think the definition of "nice" has changed a bit, too. We've got lots of dogs that will go around sheep and reach the early levels of training with ease, but they are not really dogs that can easily be turned to account in a full-time operation - that single dog who can take the place of five men or fifteen or twenty men or whatever it is. My goal as a breeder, if I ever were one of Border Collies, would be to produce "out of the box" pups that can also reach the top level of competency in livestock work.

[Chesney's Girl]

I don't have the time nor experience of working and seeing lots of different types of dogs but after listening to a few people talk about their dogs they had in the past the phrase "the older I (or the dog) get, the better I (or the dog) once was" But thats just what I got from reading what you guys have said and after listening to stories from older people and those not necessarily in the stock dog world, the more stories they tell, the better they think they were...

 

I dunno though. I liked reading what others said

[echoskybound]

Unfortunately I haven't been able to watch the breed develop over the years, but what I DO know is that border collies have become increasingly popular - the pictures of the family-friendly dogs I used to see on dog food bags went from golden retrievers to a pretty black and white border collie. Unfortunately, I think the breed and the look are becoming more popular. My particular breeder was not concerned with whether the dog would be working, or just a pet. I have found a number of border collie rescue organizations online that seem to have their hands full. I think their popularity may start to lead breeders to gear their dogs towards being pets, not just working dogs.

 

but, there are most definitely a number of excellent breeders out there focusing on working dogs. Hundreds of years ago when the border collie first came into existence, I doubt anyone ever dreamt of their skills in agility, dancing, etc. There are also a huge number of responsible owners and handlers out there who give the breed a great name and work them the way they're meant to be.

 

The future is uncertain... but whatever happens, my border collie will always teach me more than I teach him ;]

[kelpiegirl]

And I saw some of them this weekend. Handling was good, some of the dogs had to be better than that. Some dogs had to just use what they were born with- the nitty gritty. I will take a dog with good built in sense, and feel, over a points collector any day.