Vet in MD, VA area who specializes in aggression

[KJ]

Hi

I am on a search for a new vet who has a specialty with treating aggressive dogs in the MD/VA area. I am posting other places too and will make calls, AVMA I guess, but thought I'd take a shot here.

 

Took Shep to vet under mild sedation, only to unlock what is the worst aggressive display to date. Very bad situation including 3 attack-like modes when he was still going after the tech even though she was backing away, went after the vet and then he bit me, no blood. He was in utter panic. No one seem to be in control of the situation at all.

 

Wits end again. He snapped/growled last week when I was just trying to put Frontline on him.

Thanks

Kim

[SoloRiver]

Do you still hate the contact info for Kathy Meyer? If not, email me.

[KJ]

Yes I have her # and email still. I had forgotten that she was a vet, so thank you for the reminder. Luckily, I've kept all our correspondence. Thanks again.

Hope you all are doing well in CA.

Kim

[Keith Ramsay]

Wow that is a tough one. I know of a few good vets, but none that would put up with too much, or are experienced with very reactive dogs.

 

Shoot me an e-mail offline at my Gmail account. (if it shows Yahoo, same address at gmail)

 

AGBEH@yahoogroups.com has a lot of good suggestions for agressive/reactive dogs.

 

At the end of it, he has a bad association. He needs to learn slowly that the vet and general maintenace is not a bad thing. Forcing things, will only make your situation worse, so go easy with it.

 

My friends have a vet that is very pet saavy and does house visits. At least he will have his own comfort levels there.

[SoloRiver]

Hi Kim,

 

I wouldn't panic too much, although I understand the dread of annual vet visits because Solo doesn't handle them well either. The thing I keep reminding myself of is that there are a lot of totally normal dogs who also really $*#%#!!! hate the vet, and that it is not all that unusual for dogs to act up at the vet, although it isn't desirable. It's a tense situation, the dogs truly are cornered (usually you have to to be able to do anything with them) and it's all stuff that is unfamiliar and scary so if a dog is going to be at his absolute worst, it will be at the vet.

 

I take Solo to the vet wearing his headcollar, and if necessary will put a muzzle on over that (I have a lightweight muzzle meant for racing Greyhounds because he can still pant heavily in it -- most fabric muzzles don't allow stress panting, and this even affected Solo's blood tests once). I stay at his head and if possible feed him treats throughout the whole procedure. Often he is too stressed to take treats, so I merely control his head, neck and front end and the vets work as quickly as possible.

 

Also, and I am sure that Karen has already warned you about this, if the vets suggest using Ace, politely demur and request a benzodiazepine for Shep instead.

[sea4th]

Also, and I am sure that Karen has already warned you about this, if the vets suggest using Ace, politely demur and request a benzodiazepine for Shep instead.

Why is this, Melanie?

[SoloRiver]

http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/article...l.jsp?id=136493

 

(something is up with the DVM Newsmagazine site -- the photo they have up at the moment is decidedly not of Karen Overall).

[KJ]

Hi-

Sorry for this long post.

 

AGBEH@yahoogroups.com has a lot of good suggestions for agressive/reactive dogs.

I can't hack Barbara Brill. She's doing an amazing service for many but, she refused to post so many of my posts b/c they were not typed perfectly. Thanks you tho. I lurk instead.

 

...house visits

This vet does house visits. Shep has just become pretty great with people in the house, so I never want to have any associations of a stranger that he trusts sticking him. The vet suggested that I learn to give him his shots and then the only hurdle would be drawing blood or if there was an emergency, which I guess means Dormitor?, which is not what his behaviourist wants to do.

 

it is not all that unusual for dogs to act up at the vet

Melanie it's really hard NOT to panic. This is not 'acting up', this scenario was dangerous. He had one alprozalam prior to the visit and a gentle leader. He will not eat, he will not put the ball in his mouth or even look at it. He knows something is going to happen to him. So this is how it went:

-we get to vet, but stay outside-vet and tech approach-a few barks, all is fine-husband distracts with food/ball, I have the lead, vet and tech approach he rears on his hind legs, flailing everywhere, and as soon as there's any slack on the gentle leader which happens when he's all over the place, he lunges to bite and attempts multiple times-and this happened three times-they were not warnings he meant business- his eyes, completely dialated. The vet eluded to the fact that many 'normal' dogs get crazy at the vet, but that "this"...and she didn't finish her thought.

 

Last time he broke a nail and it had to be carterized it went like this:

-I gave him ACE, at the vets he got a muzzle, then he was tricked to look at me and shot with Dormitor, then treated the nails, cut them, he got his shots, Dr could feel him, look in ears, mouth etc., then the shot to bring him out of Dormitor, where he became a wild beast and no one could go near him and I had to get him in the back of the hospital. It took him 2 days to get back to normal.

 

The behaviourist doesn't want him to use ACE or Dormitor. I leave this last visit, shaking, balling and wondering what Sheps life span will be. I don't want to be a wimp and I want to be successful with this behaviour modification, but I just feel all of this has come to a screeching halt. Frankly, I shake daily over one thing or another with Shep. I can't even put Frontline on him b/c he'll try to bite me. I KNOW my own nervousness and lack of confidence is a lot of the problem. It also leaves me second guessing my decision to proceed at all.

 

So I am ranting and I apologize. My frustration lies in while SO SO many have done all they can to help, it all RELIES on me ...only. I'm the one that took him out of that muddy pen. I am flying solo and don't know what the hell I am doing. He is NOT in the best hands but it's all he has. Whatever happens to Shep, is all up to me or it's my fault.

 

All that being said, he is so so sweet. He loves us deeply. We see it everyday. One of his many nicknames besides Bumble Butt is Sweet Pea. Can you believe it?

[SoloRiver]

Please, please contact Dr. Overall again. Not because I think Shep is on the verge of meltdown, but because I think you need in-person help with this. When you're working with dogs like this there are always situational crises. You WILL get through this.

 

Remember what the first trainer you took Shep to did with him and what she said about him? And how wrong she turned out to be?

 

Solo had a similar reaction to Ace when he got it for a pre-anesthetic for a root canal. It essentially paralyzes a dog and scrambles his perceptions. So the last thing Solo remembered before being anesthetized was being paralyzed on a metal table with people in white coats about to do who knows what to him. Many humans, in the same situation (not understanding what was going on, being scared, and unable to escape or react) would have reacted the way Solo did upon coming out of anesthesia -- he came out fighting. As far as he knew they were trying to kill him and he wasn't going to go down easy. Anyway, I am not surprised by what Shep did after being Aced. Not your fault -- you didn't know.

 

Solo is a wild beast at the vet. He has no idea what they are going to do to him, he is cornered, and he is terrified. That is why he is muzzled so that everyone can work around him without being in danger. (I am not worried that he might bite me -- he would never lay a tooth on me -- but he is a strong dog and strong dogs get stronger when terrified.) The vets I have gone to are luckily nonplussed about this; many dogs have to be muzzled at the vet. You do NOT need to feel bad about using a muzzle if you have to. Heck, even Skeeter gets muzzled at the vet -- he hates to be fiddled with and the vets I've taken him to mentioned that they don't trust any little dogs and that they'd rather muzzle him better safe than sorry. (For the record, I don't think Skeeter is anywhere near being dangerous, and not only because of his size.)

 

I don't think the way your vet reacted to Shep was very fair or helpful.

 

I got Solo's muzzle here:

 

http://www.halemar.com/

 

I think he has the size that large male Greyhounds wear. I got him the plastic racing muzzle that buckles behind his ears and gives him plenty of room to pant.

 

Yes, Shep has issues. This is true. You are right about that and so was the vet. You have said many times that you love him and want to work with him, so the advice I am going to give you is to call Karen and tell her everything you've said here and ask for her advice. She has seen it all and will be able to give you an honest and highly educated opinion.

 

By the way, I fully and truly believe you when you say that Shep is sweet and loving. I can't imagine a dog more sweet and loving than Solo is; we truly get each other and were meant for each other. I think of him as my familiar, not as my pet. Pretty much no one else sees this in him, and plenty of people have told me I'd be better off killing him. I think those people are wrong. They don't know the dog I do, so they don't believe he was worth saving, but he was and he is and my life is very much better for it.

 

If you need help, please don't hesitate to email me directly. If you like I will also email Dr. Overall.

[Lunar]

I am so, so sorry you're going through a rough patch. I send you strength.

[Miztiki]

Kim, contact me privately. I can help you while you search for professional help.

 

As for this statement:

 

Also, and I am sure that Karen has already warned you about this, if the vets suggest using Ace, politely demur and request a benzodiazepine for Shep instead.

I'm not sure why Melanie said this, but I know that my Fynne is permanently damaged by it.

 

The vet gave me an Ace to see if it worked for her (for trip to Michigan). There was absolutely no effect whatsoever until nine hours later, and then it hit her good and hard.

 

It took her about 48 more hours to get it all out of her system, but to this day her left lower eyelid sags away from the eyeball, just like a person's does when they have a stroke. Her third eyelid also shows. This mostly happens when she's relaxed or tired, and not so much when she's excited or active.

 

Fort Dodge paid for me to take her to a specialist to have her examined. It's most likely permanent but it doesn't affect her vision and it's unlikely to cause any problems for her. She just has a saggy eye and it looks ugly. I'll try to get a clear picture of it.

 

Anyway, that's my experience with it. She only had one and will never have another one.

[KJ]

Melanie-

Ahhhh the soothing voice of reason...love it, you are always on target with how I feel and thank you. Between you intuitiveness and writing style I hope you write a book one day. I'll check out the muzzles too. I can't recall who, but someone I believed said muzzles made the anxiety much worse, but in the end, no one gets bit right? I believe a second visit with Karen would be awesome and is what is needed to assess. Maybe she could vet him? Maybe with her there, seeing his anxiety peaking, we can come up with a plan. Thank you for offering to contact her as well but I'll wait... I have a couple emails into her already and know she's so busy...or she's decided I am too flakey.

 

Miz-

"permanantly damaged" by benzodiazepine? Shep hasn't taken that one.

[Miztiki]

No, Ace, the sedative/tranquilizer. I don't remember the full name. I don't know what benzodiazepine is.

[KJ]

We had to take Shep to board him overnite b/c we are having company with kids. This is the place that he does so well at. This is the place that said they felt he could come of meds and always comments how he has improved. He bit the handler, John, who he typically loves. Blood. Don't know what kind of bite...fangs, how many etc., b/c my husband didn't check it out. I swear, for some reason he is regressing. I wonder if it's b/c usually he's with Curly? I just had to put this in there. What could be happening? Could it be residual from the vet visit? I'm so sad. Poor Shep.

[Keith Ramsay]

Originally posted by KJ:

I can't hack Barbara Brill. She's doing an amazing service for many but, she refused to post so many of my posts b/c they were not typed perfectly. Thanks you tho. I lurk instead.

 

She and I have gotten into it on several occasions. I disagree with her on many levels, but do respect the wealth of information that can be found there. It is good to read, but I think some of it is taken way to seriously. Then again... there have been some really interisting posts about very reactive dogs there. Lurk away.

Originally posted by KJ:

Last time he broke a nail and it had to be carterized it went like this:

-I gave him ACE, at the vets he got a muzzle, then he was tricked to look at me and shot with Dormitor, then treated the nails, cut them, he got his shots, Dr could feel him, look in ears, mouth etc., then the shot to bring him out of Dormitor, where he became a wild beast and no one could go near him and I had to get him in the back of the hospital. It took him 2 days to get back to normal.

I don't really blame him. Think if it this way... your Significant other takes you out for say a nice dinner or something you may like. On the way he stops by a hospital and has you drugged, and some stuff done to you. YOU would be pissed too. Total lack of trust.

 

I would look at approaching the vet in a totally different manner, I would also change the pattern. New vet office, new vet, all the works to break any associations he has. I really like in home vets, especially for simple things.

 

As an aside... I have never taken a dog to the vet for any sort of "service" without first walking the dog through the vet without anything happening. Yep... I do a fly through the vet before I even think about having anything done All the dog gets are treats from everyone they pass!

 

 

Oh... she and

[urge to herd]

Kim

 

I believe that Acepromazine is not a tranquilizer, instead is a paralytic. So, you end up with a terrified, conscious dog who can't move. I don't give my dogs Ace anymore at all.

 

The benzo's are true tranquilizers, like Valium, etc.

 

Hope you can get in touch with Dr. Overall. You had such good results with her previously, I'm sure she could help now.

 

Ruth n the BC3

[MaggieDog]

Since Shep is being treated by Dr. Overall as I understand, I won't give any suggestions, since she is *much* more skilled than I am lol, however, I did want to mention that if properly introduced, a muzzle can decrease anxiety or at least not escalate it. The key is to use the muzzle when good things happen before using it when it is truly needed so the association is a positive rather than a negative one.

 

Also, have you talked to Dr. Overall about trying to desensitive Shep to the vet so at least his anxiety is a bit delayed? Does he ever go to the vet for a "meet and greet" with treats and no procedures?

[KJ]

What a nightmare-Ace. It makes me sick to think Shep had that. He's just getting used to WIND not making him freak out and can't imagine what happened to him last time he took Ace. What if that's what's created this circumstance now? He was fine his first time to the vet. He did some warning snaps, but not the major attempts at biting.

 

On the suggestion of Dr Overall we will try to start desensitization at the vets. Just drive bys first, then getting out of the car for a while and then I guess, a meet and greet, as you say, with no procedures. Again it will take lots of time. We are going to try to give him the Bordadella dropped on his nose when I get the courage.

 

Regarding the muzzle, she was not into using it (and I havn't mentioned it again) b/c he can still 'practice' his aggression with it on. I did buy one, and he became a wild beast while trying to trim his nails. He will tolerate his gentle leader but just for walks. Anything, about to be done to him, he'll freak out.

 

thanks thanks thanks

Kim

[KJ]

oh and Keith

...."Total lack of trust." Yes that's the main issue I think. He still doesn't trust us...it's his keen sense of 'something is happening' when he freaks. Just parting the hair on his back to use Frontline, he freezes.

 

thanks

[Keith Ramsay]

No worries... play his terms and make him work a bit and start to trust YOU and your FAMILY.

 

The desensitizing is definately the way to go. I would look at possibly changing the pattern if he already has a 'bad' association with the current location.

 

I accidentally quicked one of Angel's nails pretty bad in a chair in the back room. Now... I can't cut toenails there very easily. Same action, but she has a bad association with 'that chair'. I just moved my location. I'll give it, angels is pretty easy, but still VERY smart.

 

I always do 'dry runs' of things. I play with the tonail clippers all the time... I get things out she does not like all the time. Repetition with no adverse affects builds up tolerance. One forced occurrance sets you back 100's of trials with a smart dog.

 

Sounds like Dr Overall has it spot on... and you are taking that to heart and really making the effort!

[KJ]

An add on to Sheps kennel visit...after picking him up, the handler said he was a 'sweetie pie' and he had a blast with the people and the dogs. This is while she knelt down with her face to his (as I cringed) and he gave her many kisses.

So I guess I am supposed to be thinking in terms of each event being separate and not a blanket response.

[laurie etc]

Kim, one thing to consider... I'm not sure what all you are having done at the vet's, but many vets now do not insist that an adult dog be vaccinated yearly - many are going to an every 3 years, or even less, schedule. You might want to check out the current AVMA recommendations, and also Dr. Jean Dodd's site regarding that.

http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-CHG-VACC-PROTOCOLS.HTM

 

There is a whole school of thought regarding over-vaccination and "vaccinosis"; and the health damage that supposedly harmless vaccinations can do. This can apparently include not only physical health problems like auto-immune disease; but behavioral and psychological like rage, aggression and autism. http://www.truthaboutvaccines.org/

I'm not saying that is Shep's problem, but if he were my dog, I would be looking into any possible cause or antagonist. Maybe Dr. Overall has already discussed this with you, but just thought I would mention it.

[KJ]

Hi Laurie

I checked out those links. It's quite confusing actually. I would like a clear breakdown of all the shots and which ones have changed etc. Curly already has Lymes Disease but is not symtomatic, and Shep needs a Lymes amoung other shots (maybe not?). To be boarded, they need the Bordatella, which we are going to try and put on Sheps nose, in a drop not a spray. Now they are pushing the new shot, Leptospirosis which the vet recommended for both dogs.

 

Shep had minimal care, no socialization and was smacked around, (probably worse, that I didn't witness) for the first 2 years of his life. He lived in a pen. That's his problem. He's terrified all the time and very suspicious.

[laurie etc]

Yes - it is confusing - There are lots of differing opinions - from vets, research scientists, and lay-people. I guess some depends on how often you take your dogs places where they are exposed to disease. From the research and reading I've done, I think it's "overkill" and possibly even dangerous to longevity and immune system health to vaccinate for the common diseases every year. I think that it is proven that Distemper, Parvo, Corona, Hepatitis and the old Lepto(that the 5-way vaccine covers) and a few others are really non-issues in a previously vaccinated adult dog. (From what I recall, in some studies, immunity to the diseases above lasted well over 7 years after just one vaccine as a pup and a booster a year later. The study was ended after 7 years, so it's possible that some vaccines actually offer lifetime immunity.) I do think that Lymes is a concern in the VA/MD area whether you vaccinate or not. I don't vaccinate for it, but I do titres if I see a lameness or health issue that might point to Lymes or Erlichea. I understand that the new strains of Lepto in our area are becoming a problem - I'm just not sold on the vaccine yet, because the old Lepto vaccine did cause some long term problems in dogs. I understand about the Bordetella rule some boarding places have, but it is usually a non-issue in an otherwise healthy dog. Where I train in Leesburg VA we require dogs to show proof of Rabies vaccination to enroll in class. We have never had an "outbreak" of any canine disease there, although there have been isolated cases of kennel cough and "show crud" enteritis with student dogs, we just ask that they not come to class until they are over it.

 

There are rural vets all over MD and VA that make farm calls - When I had horses they would also treat my dogs and cats on the farm as well. Maybe you could make arrnagements for anything Shep needs to be done as a "farm call". I do think for some reactive and untrusting dogs, that it won't matter how many times they go for "wellness visits". The smell of a vet's office (medicine and adrenaline from other scared, sick, dying or painful dogs) just makes it a scary place for them to be.

 

I don't know Shep's whole history, but just being kept in a pen and knocked around may not be the only reason he is fearful, reactive and distrustful. I'd be looking outside the box because of his extreme reactions. There could be underlying medical reasons (vaccinosis, thyroid imbalance, brain malfunction from concussions), or just basic unstable temperament issues. Three of my dogs were "penned outside" for extended parts of their early lives (10 months - 4 years) and the little girl I just rescued is almost three and has never been out of her pen to exercise. Two were very shy and unsocialized, yet none of them would ever consider biting or aggression toward humans, even when in pain.

[KJ]

You're right Laurie. Some dogs are fine altho they've been penned and worse. Shep has never had any blood work. He's barely been touched by a Dr. It does get me thinking. I've always wanted a Dr to feel his ribs b/c right at what I guess is his sternum, but off to the side is bone that is sharp and he doesn't like it touched. You can only feel it when he's in certain positions. You also said "There could be underlying medical reasons (vaccinosis, thyroid imbalance, brain malfunction from concussions), or just basic unstable temperament issues. " How do they test for these?

 

Some severe reactions when we first rescued him, besides the aggression, were: when the wind would blow and we were outside, he'd freeze and if it gusts, he cowers, getting in the car he shakes. When it thunders, it's as if he's compelled to go outside, all the while turning circles and scared. In the beginning I let him out in a storm, b/c he was asking to go out and I thought he had to go to the bathroom, he just stood there, frozen, while there was thunder and lightning, pouring rain all around him. It was so so weird. I made him come back in right away of course.

 

Well you have made me think that he has never had any blood work. Now back to the original issue, vets!! AHHH! I COULD JUST SCREAMMMMM!!!!!!!! (I have...and cried and cursed etc) I know of vets that do home visits, but I don't want his associations with anyone that comes to the house to be bad. Doesn't that make sense? He is great with people in the house so...I don't want to risk any back sliding.

 

I know I must sound kind of pathetic but sometimes I just look at him, and I love him, and I just wonder how and why the hell did we end up together? IF there's a god, what's the plan? I do know this, he's taught me more about myself than I have taught him.

 

Thanks for all your thoughts.

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aka, Pink Lip