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Ellie

Breeding but wait....

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Oh hell, I hate when I can't keep out of something!

 

I will play the "breeder game" with you for a moment for your entertainment.

I am 32yr old womana = mature bitch (pun INTENDED! lol)

I am educated = level head

I have a career = working ability

I am good at what I do = proven working ability

I have been married for 12 yrs = stability, knowing bloodlines, traits, character, knowledge of bitch (heehee)

I JUST had my first child = responsible breeding.

 

So, you tried to compare us ladies breeding, with your dog, and I have showed you AGAIN (as others did) how

your bitch does not qualify as a good breeding prospect.

 

As mad as you are that no one thinks you should breed, at least pay attention to the one person who put up the

very good point of how those pups will learn from seeing the Ellie's reaction to situations. That was a great point.

If you feel that she is making great progress, don't risk taking a HUGE step back.

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Oh, ErinKate, that's too much fun!

 

Here's what my PetFinder ID would say:

 

Mary is a mature, medium-sized bitch, well-behaved. Guaranteed not to chew your linoleum or cabinet-surf, but with a lot of good years ahead. 100% house-trained; only occasionally pees outside the bathroom when she finds herself out on a long walk in the woods. A lovely girl who will be even lovelier when she loses a few pounds. Gets along great with all dogs, but will do best in a home where she can be an "only human." Has some issues with resource guarding and mild aggression toward other humans with bad manners who don't read body language. Mary's coat is easy to care for; an occaional hot bath and a good brushing are all she needs. Currently a working girl, Mary would prefer a home where she can lie on the couch and watch TV. Enjoys snacks and bedtime. Mary is showing the very early signs of arthritis; her dam and the dam's mother also developed arthritis with age. Because of this genetic predisposition, and because of Mary's sometimes short fuse, she should not be bred.

 

Mary

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This is too funny. Since this thread has taken a turn for the worse. I'll throw in my Petfinder one too.

 

Dianne is a senior bitch, rough coated, bred back to back at an early age, but is now spayed. Although she is shaky, she still loves to romp and play and enjoys being with people. She gets along well with other dogs, but unfortunately, does counter-surf. She ran away from her previous owner in the country and is just as happy living in the city. She loves to herd sheep, but can find her "off switch" and just chill by the TV. Because of her age and her DNA Dianne should never be bred again.

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I think my husband and I have great blood lines. Generations as far back as we can trace of musicians and literature scholars.

 

So, yes, we produced three kids. Each of whom is doing quite well in a chosen profession and each of whom has chosen a mate who is also doing well in a chosen profession. Only one kid has, however, chosen to reproduce. And that child is a wonder of great genetics on both sides.

 

Also, we did not ever breed to sell or otherwise donate our offspring. Admittedly, during the teen years, we would have given any one of the three free to a home - good or otherwise.

 

We also supported each of the three for about 23 years. As in - through university.

 

This is way different from making a bitch produce puppies that you intend to sell. So don't pull the "kids" bit on those of us who are responsible pet owners who are also parents.

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The short answer to your question as to whether or not breeding this dog would be advantageous for the INDIVIDUAL dog is "NO."

 

The short answer to whether or not breeding this dog would be advantageous to the BREED is "NO."

 

The best thing for her AND for the breed would be to spay her. There IS NO ADVANTAGE in breeding this dog, either to this individual dog, OR to the breed as a whole. There ARE significant risks and costs (ie, disadvantages) to both the individual dog and to the breed as a whole if you DID decide to breed her. You've already been given a number of relevant and well-considered replies as to why that is so. ISTM that the decision ought to be a no-brainer from there. If your concern is for the best interests of the dog, your answer is very clear: Spay. The only reason to breed is to gratify your own feelings about breeding her, without regard to what it may cost the dog (not to mention the breed as a whole - and more immediately, what the potentially dreadful cost might be to any puppies she might produce.) Why make more misery in the world? You have it within your power to prevent that harm from happening - not just to her, but to a number of other dogs as well - by the simple expedietn of spaying. Why would you choose otherwise?

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I had a wonderful little working bred cattle dog from great lines. Her temperament and everything about her was superb. But I bought her to be my companion and we had 17 great years together. I never considered breeding her and had her spayed. Why bother? There is too much breeding going on in the world already.

 

Ellie sounds like she deserves just to be your dog without any other hassles. I cant think of any good reasons to breed her.

 

On human reproduction, a couple of my good friends and my own mother whose temperaments could be described as questionable (LOL) - well having kids certainly didnt change them! We often have a good laugh about this as do their husbands!

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This has gone to far! We should ever have to prove ourselves to someone else because they are to hard headed to understand what we are saying. This post went from asking if it would help Ellie if she had puppies to asking if people should have had, or will have kids. ARE YOU KIDDING ME?? Sure, I am going to have kids (in the far far future) but how did this go from a dog being bred to people having kids? What does it even have to do with it? I supported you getting Ellie and I think you have done well by her. But if you breed her you will be doing the worst thing in the world for her. If you truly care for her, love her, and want to do the right thing please spay her now. I have a very strong opinion also, just as you. But just because I have never been to war doesn't mean I am any less of a man or person. I thank you for your work, but don't think you are better than me by doing it.

 

So please quit correcting people's spelling

Please quit saying people shouldn't have kids and please quit trying to make yourself think it's ok to breed her. Lets be real. If you thought it was the right thing, wouldn't you have just done it? I don't appreciate you sending me PM's saying you "would like to breed her out of spite" That is a damn wrong thing to say to someone that has spent his life saving the lives of animals that people breed because they want to. And I'm not going to be adopting out your puppies in a few months because of it.

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Hear, hear AJ! Especially this line:

That is a damn wrong thing to say to someone that has spent his life saving the lives of animals that people breed because they want to. And I'm not going to be adopting out your puppies in a few months because of it.

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Why would ANY decent human being make any decision WHATSOEVER out of spite? And what kind of person would one have to be, to make a decision from spite that SOMEONE ELSE - in this case, innocent animal(s) who have no choice in the matter - has to pay for??? :rolleyes:

 

Pretty weenie. I guess I grew up with a different moral code than that. Or maybe I should say "I guess I grew up with a moral code", because ISTM that making an innocent pay for one's own spite does not land anywhere in the realm of morality. ANY morality.

 

Good Lord.

 

And: You go, AJ.

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^^What she said, and then some. I feel very sorry for Ellie. And the kids thing? We recognize it for what it is--a huge red herring.

 

AJ, I know you may regret having every encouraged Ellie's placement, given the turn of events, but I also know you are doing a great job and have the best interests of the dogs at heart. And that's way more than we can say for Ellie's owner.

 

J.

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Im going to chime in here even though I stopped reading posts about half way through. Let me preface this by saying that I dont work sheep, even though I have had experience with it when I was younger by way of my great uncles farm that I spent so much time at as a kid / teen.

 

My short answer is not to breed her and I will tell you why without harsh words and from a similar but different angle. I have had BCs most of my life and cannot imagine owning another breed without one - ever! They are by far the most intelligent and special animals I have ever met. Given I dont work sheep, what do I do with them and what could I possibly have to say about it?

 

Well, my dogs job is frisbee, but more importantly it is being my friend and interacting with me on a level no other breed (on a whole) has ever done. Simply, they are so amazing because of how they have been bred. I spay/neuter all of my dogs because I have such a respect for the lines that have created them; I wouldnt dare corrupt it with a dog that has not proven itself by working. THAT is what creates this special breed that has made my life worth living (yes, my dogs are my life!). So, even though I dont work sheep, they are special to me. And those strong working lines have created the most wonderful friends I have ever come accross in this world.

 

So, if you breed your dog (wonderful as she may be to you) you are polluting the line just as my dogs would "pollute" the line. My dogs have always come from proven parents in working lines. Since they too have not been proven I wouldnt dare breed them. Even though I would do almost anything to have had a pup from my now passed on BC, I have enough respect for HIM not to have done it.

 

Does this make sense to you? I hope that my feelings and point were conveyed clearly and with respect. My pup that I have now has a stare from heck and would probably make a wonderful stock dog; but HE ISNT. And because of that, I wont breed him. It is the proven lines that created him. Thank God for those lines because my dog wouldnt be what he is - which is a high drive little BC that shreds on disc, has an intelligence beyond 99% of dogs that arent a BC, is almost human and he is starting to interact with me on a level beyond words and action. No other breed I have met can do this to the level of a BC and its because of the dedication to this wonderful breed called a Border Collie.

 

So no, dont breed your dog....just love her, enjoy her and watch her and leave it at that.

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I know I am no Eileen, but I think it would be best if we all just quit with this post. I think the OP just likes the drama at this point. I know we all wish the dog the best.

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Agreed.

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There sure a lot of experts here that know a lot about nothing. Ellie, it's your dog do what you want. For some reason, most of the people think they have all the rights to the breed and try to force their oppinion on anyone that ask a question. By the way, even some people should not have children, but they do. :rolleyes:

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There sure a lot of experts here that know a lot about nothing. Ellie, it's your dog do what you want. For some reason, most of the people think they have all the rights to the breed and try to force their oppinion on anyone that ask a question. By the way, even some people should not have children, but they do. :rolleyes:
When you start thinking about breeding you must start thinking about the potential impacts this action will have on the breed as a whole, not just your own dog. Every dog added to the population brings with it traits that then add to the breed since the offspring can be bred (it's outside your control). The only way this would not be so is if you keep all the pups or you alter all the pups before they leave your possession.

 

So when you're talking about breeding it's no longer just about your dog; it is now about our breed (all of us). Every dog added changes the breed for good or for bad. Take for example the pit bulls, the national impression of this breed is dictated by poorly bred individual dogs that make the news due to their actions not by the true nature of the breed.

 

Mark

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There sure a lot of experts here that know a lot about nothing. Ellie, it's your dog do what you want. For some reason, most of the people think they have all the rights to the breed and try to force their oppinion on anyone that ask a question. By the way, even some people should not have children, but they do.

 

Thank you for your opinion, Mary3030. Please tell us what experience you have that has helped you to acquire your infinite wisdom. You just sort of popped on, and never introduced yourself or your dogs. Please ... we would love to hear about them. Do you train dogs to work stock? Do you breed? What standards do you feel a dog needs to meet in order to be considered for breeding? Where do you feel the future of the breed is heading, and what impact do you feel Ellie would have on that if she were to be bred?

 

I am once again ignoring the reference to human reproduction, as it is irrelevant in this thread, and the parallell is drawn sheerly out of desperation.

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Mary, If your of this opinion, and you know that breeding a dog such as Ellie isnt the mindset of the forum members, would you simply not just PM Ellie's owner, instead of doing what you did? Are you too looking for a long drawn out debate that gets no-one no where? I really think your posting what you posted was uncalled for, and really doesnt add anything of any value to the thread. Encouraging the breeding of dogs such as Ellie is not what this forum is based on.

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I really don't feel that someone who doesn't even take the time to inderduce them selves needs to come on to a thread that has already come to the point we are at now and post something like that. Without even letting everyone know what experince she has with the breed. If someone wasn't trying to make trouble they should have told us who she was, what experince she has with BC's and why she thinks like this.

 

Mary3030, are you a Border Collie breeder? or a back yard breeder? Do you go through the process of checking your dogs? What research have you done into the breed? Have you ever owned a Border Collie before? If so how many did you own and how long have you owned them? Do you work sheep or cattle? If you want to comment please take the time to answer these questions and the ones by jdarling. If not please don't post on a topic that you have no idea about.

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I’m going to give you just a little information. The reason, is that anyone who does not agree with you, you think they are against you and 6 to 8 people attack them. I have been reading this board for a numbers of years and just recently signed up with very little information about my self or my husband. My husband is a Veterinarian specializing in small animals. We have raised Border Collies for over 25 years. I really don’t think I need to introduce myself, what I have done with my life, or where I am going with my life. I am giving my opinion, just like you. The only difference is that we do know what we are doing. This same argument comes up about every 6 to 8 weeks. It’s always the same people who say the thing. The people who use their dogs to work should buy or produce only “proven dogs” if that’s what they want. Most of the people who give opinions, (just my opinion) are people who keep their dogs in their apartment, cages or play with a tennis ball once a week. These people are the ones who really don’t know what their talking about. Jdarling, I know of your land and do appreciate your opinion because you do work your dogs. WyoBC, I know your just a young man who just lost a loving pet but just because you work in a shelter and have a dog and you are able to play on the internet all day does not make you an expert nor does a groomer make you an expert. Look at this past post and see what it has turned into. Some people are just plain “asses”. What some people want is the perfect Border Collie, to answer the question and what impact do you feel Ellie would have on that if she were to be bred? No one knows. A lot of Championship dogs have produced a bad litter, and a lot of “poor candidates have produced great litters. If I was raising top quality dogs the answer is “no” I would not breed her.

Most breeds have gone by the way of their original intent. Just look at the history of most dogs. Most are now used as pets. I applaud the owners who still use BC to work the stock. We have stock our self and are grateful of our dogs but we raise our own dogs and if we go outside, we look at the lineage. It really hurts, when a few people try to own the breed and severely chastise people who want to simply ask a question. If you were ladies or gentleman, some people would apologize to some people. It’s one thing to suggest, offer or give advice, but attacking people is unacceptable. Just remember unless your certified, your not an expert. That’s my take from a crusty old lady.

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Jdarling, I know of your land ...

 

Not sure what that means ...

 

and do appreciate your opinion because you do work your dogs.

 

Thanks, but I will tell you I have a hard time taking anyone seriously that comes on to this board ... gives strong opinion ... and then refuses to identify themselves. Do you not stand behind your beliefs?

 

to answer the question and what impact do you feel Ellie would have on that if she were to be bred? No one knows. A lot of Championship dogs have produced a bad litter, and a lot of “poor candidates have produced great litters.

 

This is the exception, not the rule. Should we just breed whatever ... and then hope?

 

If I was raising top quality dogs the answer is “no” I would not breed her.

 

So if you're raising mediocre dogs, it would be okay?

 

If you have livestock, and you use your dogs to help you with the livestock, why then are you okay with people breeding dogs simply because they have a uterus and they can? Why would you be telling Ellie's owner "do what you want" when he's talking about breeding a clearly inferior dog?

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Most of the people who give opinions, (just my opinion) are people who keep their dogs in their apartment, cages or play with a tennis ball once a week. These people are the ones who really don't know what their talking about.

 

Bullshit. I have seen no evidence that anyone on this board fits that description, though it sure would be convenient for your point if it were true. If you want people to respect your opinion, respect theirs. The philosophy of this board is completley contrary to what you advocate, so seeing that people are "chastizing" someone for choosing to breed irresponsibily should come as no surprise to someone who has been reading these boards for years.

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There sure a lot of experts here that know a lot about nothing. Ellie, it's your dog do what you want. For some reason, most of the people think they have all the rights to the breed and try to force their oppinion on anyone that ask a question. By the way, even some people should not have children, but they do. :rolleyes:

 

Mary3030,

 

Actually, a lot of expertise has been shared in the course of this thread. Ellie certainly knows that he is free to breed his dog if he wants. He came here asking for advice and opinions, and he received them. They were not forced upon him -- they were posted here, where he solicited them, and he is free to read them or not as he chooses, and act on them or not as he chooses.

 

OTOH, your post displays no expertise, knowledge or experience. Its sole purpose appears to be insulting other posters. That is not permitted on these Boards.

 

As others have said, I think this thread has run its course and further posting on it would be repetitious at best, so I will close it now.

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