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Breeding but wait....

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I think that if the OP had bothered to read the "Read this first" sticky, he would have had the sense to not post this topic at all.

Lisa

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I have not fled the thread as was so eloquently written. I just been a bit busy. Bit passive aggressive are we?

And yes I know AJ and BlackJack. We have been talking since before Ellie would come to me and get a scratch. Y'all need ot read more figuratively then literally. Yes on every ranch dogs get killed; not an every day occurence or that common but it happens.

I have NOT made up my mind to breed or not to breed I was seeking information not opinions. AJ and Maralynn had the sentiment and experience I sought. As for the rest maybe I am old school,I am old, and maybe not. I lost a few good dogs in Vietnam and 2 here. I would posit this question for those that think reproduction is best left to those that can "improve the gene pool" Did you think of that when you had your kids or your kids had kids? I see that as the same. I was clipped over 35 years ago don't regret it and have no children.

Yeah I see things differently; believe that is what this place is about.

Cogent and empathetic replies reach me.

I take Ellie to the vet and she has a good time. I realize it is hard to create a picture in a short space. But thanks Maralynn and AJ. (Give my best to BlackJack)

As far as the onerous paperwork it was more than that. I don't even give the government permission to come onto my property at will to inspect as they see fit with no time limits. And I never will.

I am NOT against adoption or fostering or as you can see ransoming.

"would have had the sense" I wonder if anyone that has kids ever thought about having the sense to see the world is well overpopulated and there are plenty of rescues that could be placed.

That's right I am an opinionated, sometimes cranky, often lovable old man. I live with so get used to it and cease the personality comments.

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Well, I reckon there are several ajetives that could be used to describe or sum up your ideas where breeding Ellie are concerned, but I think the best one to describe it would be uneducated. I understand that putting this to the board was pretty much like slitting your wrists and jumping into the shark tank, but you knew that going in. I hope that A.J. and Maralyn have helped to educate you and you have a better understanding now of the why's and why nots of breeding, and that you've decided to spay her and enjoy her for who she is without the misconception that having pups may some how help or change her.

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Cogent and empathetic replies reach me.

 

Translation: You are deaf to good advice and opinions that don't support your own ideas.

 

...which are neither cogent nor empathetic, btw. There is nothing empathetic about breeding a chronically shy, unproven dog and bringing puppies that inherit these traits into a world FULL of puppies and dogs. And there is absolutely 100% nothing cogent about your "arguments" - and I use the term extremely loosely - for doing so.

 

RDM

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First of all I would like to tell you, Thank you for your service in Vietnam. I have been dating a man that served 3 tours there. He was in the K9 unit. Also, as far as the gene pool goes towards children, I passed my disease down to my kids before I knew I had it. So I guess I, myself am a bad breeder people. When I first started in border collies, I did some breeding myself. Both of my dogs worked well on my farm and were trialing, but only in novice. Their parents were in open and I had hips and eyes tested and thought I was doing the right thing. I made sure that they went to good homes. Most went to working homes and I kept in touch with them for years. One went to an obedience home and he was an OTCH dog. I now know it was wrong. I would not do it again. So I honestly know how you are feeling. Keep in touch with AJ and he will lead you on the right path.

Dianne

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Translation: You are deaf to good advice and opinions that don't support your own ideas.

 

...which are neither cogent nor empathetic, btw. There is nothing empathetic about breeding a chronically shy, unproven dog and bringing puppies that inherit these traits into a world FULL of puppies and dogs. And there is absolutely 100% nothing cogent about your "arguments" - and I use the term extremely loosely - for doing so.

 

RDM

 

whatever you think or am IK using that word too loosely for you.....

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Well, I reckon there are several ajetives that could be used to describe or sum up your ideas where breeding Ellie are concerned, but I think the best one to describe it would be uneducated. I understand that putting this to the board was pretty much like slitting your wrists and jumping into the shark tank, but you knew that going in. I hope that A.J. and Maralyn have helped to educate you and you have a better understanding now of the why's and why nots of breeding, and that you've decided to spay her and enjoy her for who she is without the misconception that having pups may some how help or change her.

 

got kids?

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First of all I would like to tell you, Thank you for your service in Vietnam. I have been dating a man that served 3 tours there. He was in the K9 unit. Also, as far as the gene pool goes towards children, I passed my disease down to my kids before I knew I had it. So I guess I, myself am a bad breeder people. When I first started in border collies, I did some breeding myself. Both of my dogs worked well on my farm and were trialing, but only in novice. Their parents were in open and I had hips and eyes tested and thought I was doing the right thing. I made sure that they went to good homes. Most went to working homes and I kept in touch with them for years. One went to an obedience home and he was an OTCH dog. I now know it was wrong. I would not do it again. So I honestly know how you are feeling. Keep in touch with AJ and he will lead you on the right path.

Dianne

 

good reply and tell your man welcome home from the Marines! Sorry about your kids. It was what I was alluding to about having children. KI was alert to the alleged dangers of Agent Orange so made the decision to be cut. These are not trial dogs or competition dogs just cow dogs which for some reason seem to offend people. I wonder if they ever have their DNA checked. Thanks for the reply.

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whatever you think or am IK using that word too loosely for you.....

 

 

BTW she is not chronically shy so look before oyu jump. I know I don't type real well.

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got kids?

 

Utterly ridiculas argument. Having children and breeding dogs are two totally seperate ideals. Wether I have children or not, is none of your bussiness. Im not the one that came on here asking for input. Personally Im begining to think you came here looking for a fight, and I for one will entertain you no longer.

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First of all, having children and breeding dogs are on opposite ends of the scale here. You came here to ask whether or not YOU should breed YOUR dog, not whether or not everyone should have kids. Lets try and stay on track before you offend more people with your opinionated views on human reproduction. We're talking canines. Not people.

 

Now, I consider it pretty callous of you to state that most of these cattle dogs die off rather quickly thanks to accidents n the field. In all truth, if the owners are caring and take the time to train the dog properly, have a good eye for dangerous situations, not to mention provide good veterinary care, then there is no reason why they shouldn't prosper doing what they were bred to do, and retiring when the time is right. If you're so sure that these pups are going to go out there and just get killed off early by 'life on the ranches' out there, then I wonder how you can bring pups into this world in good conscience, knowing they are going to meet such a fate. Many people here who work their dogs have plenty of dogs who have reached their retirement stage and are healthy and thriving.

 

Furthermore, has your dog had her hips/eyes checked? Any blood work? Has she ever even been tried on stock? Have you fully trained her so you are able to gauge her abilities, her pros and cons, you know--exactly what you'll be passing on through her lines??? What does your vet say about breeding her? Most vets these days are reluctant to give out breeding advice, thanks to the flood of puppies and dogs in shelters...

 

You mentioned you got snipped because of a possibility of something being wrong with what you could pass on. Well, do the responsible thing and spay your dog, because without paperwork on her, you do not know if there is the possibility she'll be passing on something to her pups.

 

Nuff said.

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First of all, having children and breeding dogs are on opposite ends of the scale here. You came here to ask whether or not YOU should breed YOUR dog, not whether or not everyone should have kids. Lets try and stay on track before you offend more people with your opinionated views on human reproduction. We're talking canines. Not people.

 

Now, I consider it pretty callous of you to state that most of these cattle dogs die off rather quickly thanks to accidents n the field. In all truth, if the owners are caring and take the time to train the dog properly, have a good eye for dangerous situations, not to mention provide good veterinary care, then there is no reason why they shouldn't prosper doing what they were bred to do, and retiring when the time is right. If you're so sure that these pups are going to go out there and just get killed off early by 'life on the ranches' out there, then I wonder how you can bring pups into this world in good conscience, knowing they are going to meet such a fate. Many people here who work their dogs have plenty of dogs who have reached their retirement stage and are healthy and thriving.

 

Furthermore, has your dog had her hips/eyes checked? Any blood work? Has she ever even been tried on stock? Have you fully trained her so you are able to gauge her abilities, her pros and cons, you know--exactly what you'll be passing on through her lines??? What does your vet say about breeding her? Most vets these days are reluctant to give out breeding advice, thanks to the flood of puppies and dogs in shelters...

 

You mentioned you got snipped because of a possibility of something being wrong with what you could pass on. Well, do the responsible thing and spay your dog, because without paperwork on her, you do not know if there is the possibility she'll be passing on something to her pups.

 

Nuff said.

 

Kids and dogs may be on the opposite end of the spectrum as you think but responsible breeding is responsible breeding is responsible breeding,for the "good of the breed". So that's the same track. ENough people on the planet now lost and unwanted or haven't you noticed.

I never said they die off quickly. I said they die some in 10 years some in 10 months just like people or don't you read.

 

ellie has had all her checks. hips eyes blood work, papers etc.

 

Are you spayed or did you not do the responsible thing.

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got kids?

 

Utterly ridiculas argument. Having children and breeding dogs are two totally seperate ideals. Wether I have children or not, is none of your bussiness. Im not the one that came on here asking for input. Personally Im begining to think you came here looking for a fight, and I for one will entertain you no longer.

 

I never asked for anyones opinion of whether or not I SHOULD COULD or WOULD only asked for peoples EXPERIENCE. THat means if you have done it. Think what you want however alien is the concept

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I thought I could just let this go, and will, but not before I leave you with one more opinion you didnt ask for. You sir are a horses ass! :rolleyes:

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Yikes! As someone who does rescue I have to say do not, under any circumstances, breed a fearful dog, ever.

 

Fear is the easiest thing to pass on to a litter. Whether genetic or whatever, this dog should not reproduce, ever.

 

Kathy

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Kathy reminded me of another issue you'll need to take into consideration: even if the dam is not genetically fearful, her reactions to events while with the puppies can cause otherwise genetically sound pups to learn to behave fearfully. This learned behavior can and will persist into adult life if not remedied quickly. The remedy is often to handraise the puppies and/or find a more stable "nursemaid" dog to raise the litter.

 

There's also some concern that increased levels of cortisol, other stress hormones, and various pheromones may predispose pups being nursed by a stressed/fearful bitch to becoming oversensitized to stress and/or lacking in impulse control - two issues that are *not* at *all* desireable in either a working or pet dog.

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Ellie! So glad to see you've returned! I was a bit disappointed, though, that you didn't address the questions I asked (considering you mentioned that the best way to elicit information is by asking questions) ...

 

So I ask again:

 

What is your goal behind considering your dog for breeding? What are you hoping to produce? How do you feel breeding your dog would positively affect the future of the breed? Do you feel that the best way to produce working puppies is by breeding non-working parents? If so, please explain how you came to this conclusion.

 

And now I have a few more.

 

ellie has had all her checks. hips eyes blood work, papers etc.

 

Can you please send me the link to the OFA results? And what were the results of her bloodwork? Was that DNA bloodwork, or Optigen testing? Have you had her CERF'd?

 

Thanks.

Jodi

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Ellie, I went back and read your original post. The only question I could find in it was "Would having pups be advantageous to a damaged dog well on her way to recovery?" and the answer to that is "No." You did provide a lot of additional information about your bitch, which amounted to a list of reasons not to breed her, IMO, and in the opinion of others who have posted very eloquently.

 

Though I don't see the relevance, I will mention that I chose not to give birth to children myself, since that will apparently increase my credibility in your eyes.

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Okay, I'll throw in here.

 

I have a lovely little red and white tri girl who is now 8 years old. Temperament is rock solid. Loves anyone and everyone, babies, kids, adults and the elderly. Great with other dogs. Unfazed by new surroundings, has lived in 3 states, 7 homes, with roommates and now my husband.

 

I took her to work sheep when she was a little less than a year old and she was a natural! Beautiful natural outrun, balance, eye and talent to spare! We trained for a couple of years and even trialed some. My trainer was upset to learn that I had spayed this great girl when she was 6 months old. There were a couple of times that it did cross my mind that maybe Carlie could have added to the gene pool and that maybe I shouldn't have spayed her.

 

But then I started really looking at her. She is a great dog. She is my once-in-a-lifetime girl. There is nothing that I've asked from her that she hasn't given all she has and all she is. Now I can't even imagine putting her in danger by breeding her. Too many things can go wrong and you can end up losing the pups and bitch, even when you are very careful and do everything right. I couldn't have lived with myself if I lost this girl.

 

We now also know that her hips are bad and it is probably genetic, look what I would have passed on if I had bred her before she had proven herself. I can't imagine sentencing a litter to the heartbreak that I see her go through each day when she has trouble jumping into the car.

 

Please think twice about breeding your girl. If she is that precious to you then don't risk her by asking her to carry a litter and then raise them in her fragile mental state. There are plenty of border collies out there from both rescue and good breeder who have spent years learning about the breed and only breeding health checked, proven dogs.

 

Olivia

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:rolleyes: I guess I am credible too :D

 

Though I don't see the relevance, I will mention that I chose not to give birth to children myself, since that will apparently increase my credibility in your eyes.

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Okay, another credible nonbreeder here. What you asked was this:

I know it is at best a guess but I surely welcome any and all input from others experience.

 

Now you seem to be saying you didn't really want people's opinions ("any and all input")--but that you wanted to hear only from people who had bred similar dogs under similar circumstances? It's really unlikely that you are going to find a bunch of folks who have experience breeding dogs who have some sort of PTSD--most people just wouldn't do that to a dog, period. This is an Internet forum--post a question and you're guaranteed to get folks' opinions, whether you like those opinions or not.

 

This thread has turned into some sort of snark-fest between you and just about everyone else. The only thing I can conclude is that you really didn't want to hear anyone's opinions (well, unless maybe the opinion was "breed her"). That's okay, but if you don't want to hear opposing views, it's probably best not to post on a forum such as this. Heck, if you had read the "Read This First" welcome message you would likely have had a very good idea up front of the responses you'd get from folks when you asked your question.

 

Anyway, I personally think Ellie shouldn't be bred. I don't think (as I said before) going through pregnancy and whelping is somehow going to make a positive change in her attitude/outlook on life. But I suspect you're going to breed her because that's what you want to do, and if that's the case, then why continue this "discussion"? I can't imagine anyone is getting anything out of it.

 

J.

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I don't mean to keep this going, but I couldn't stay out of it. I'm sorry.

 

First, you say that you believe her shyness is genetic. Then you say "BTW she is not chronically shy so look before oyu jump. I know I don't type real well." By not providing a solid opinion and argument, you are making yourself sound like someone "who just wants puppies" because we haven't received a very educated reason why you believe you should do this. And the "just wants puppies" attitude is something we are trying to stop.

 

Yes, many of the posts here are full of attitude and snarky comments, but to be honest, when you are jumping all over the board with your "facts", it's hard to give advice that you could learn from it, because you are just fighting the replies.

 

Please try to look past the snarkiness and try to take something out of it. You've obviously revved up a lot of members, and it is because they are passionate about the breed, and wish to preserve it. Nothing else, nothing about children, just Border Collies.

 

You have been given great advice, and the answer is simply, no. Please don't breed your Ellie. You came here because you had a question if it would help her shyness and bring her out of her shell - no, it won't. All that will help her is loving her for who she is. Your rancher friends can find great herders in rescue and from a *reputable* breeder.

 

Kayla

 

(Now, I will really stay out of it!)

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Julie P., now you can add "credible non-breeder" to your Poseur title!

 

That's all I've got to say, since I'm not credible, having brought two wonderful children I'm very proud of, into this world, after a great deal of thought and five years of marriage.

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I'm even less credible, Becca, being the mother of four (and grandmother of six, so some of my children are also less credible - does that make us all incredible?).

 

Everyone else has said all that needed to be said, and let's hope that their thoughtful comments don't go unheeded.

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I'm a CNB, too.

 

And I'll add for the record that after 22 years of teaching 8th grade, I do firmly believe that humans should put at least as much thought and consideration into breeding humans as the posters on this forum put into breeding BCs. :rolleyes:

 

Mary

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