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Breeding but wait....

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OK before I get jumped on about breeding a BC when there are so many at shelters please bear with me. THe whole story of Ellie can be found through a search for Ellie on this site. She is coming along beautifully considering her rough beginnings.

WHen we first ransomed her she was in her first? heat. How delightful. However we weathered that and now it is a year later and she is coming in again. We live in a ranching community, sheep and cattle, and the ranchers are always looking for new dogs. You know how ranch life is on 'em. No judgement just the facts, snake bites, run over, kicked, coyotes, etc. some just seem to have a shorter life than others. I am looking for some additional insight before we make a final decision. I believe she started into her cycle on Saturday as she has become weirder and leery of me. IMHO she is just having some flashbacks. When we first got her she was in heat. I have studied PTSD in humans and have to think it is not much different in dogs. Today even the smell of jet fuel on a rainy day can trigger some bad juju in me.

Ellie had parvo as a pup and I think that makes her a bit faster to tire. Of course she received all her shots once we had her. Does anyone have any input on the lasting effects of parvo?

Ellie has a very strong herd eye, excellent crouch and works a good circle. We have not had stock here since last year when she would not come within 50' of me but now I can at least touch her and she will come to me; in the fields which is a real delight.

We have good places for the pups and the ranchers are happy to have some new blood. The real questions are " Would having pups be advantageous to a damaged dog well on her way to recovery or could she just walk away and leave a very big job for THE FABULOUS MS. LESLIE?"

I know it is at best a guess but I surely welcome any and all input from others experience. BTW Ellie replaced Katie who was a pup of a pup of ours.

We have 15 acres a big fenced yard with trees lawn and tall grass and spring is rolling into Colorado. THere is a possibility we would keep one pup but we would not breed for that. That'd be the BC rescue if the paperwork and requirements were not too onerous. There is always the foster dog route as well. This is not for us to have another BC but it does factor into the equation.

Sorry for the long post but if I talked to my ranchers buddies about this it'd take most of the day and 1 maybe 2 thermoses of coffee, 2 cans of chew.......anyway we are burning ditch now so the season is upon us.

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I guess I don't really understand why you'd want to breed your poor long-recovering traumatized dog? Why would you want to put her through the major stress and health risks of a pregnancy if you don't even want a pup out of her? Because you know some people that might (or might not) buy a pup from a litter? Is it because you want to make money? Have you ever bred before? Do you know anything about the process, the tests she (and the pups) should have, or the vet care she'll need during pregnancy? Have you thought about what you'd be passing onto the wider border collie gene pool (besides no longer being terrified of stock :rolleyes: )?

 

It sounds sort of like you want to breed her just to breed her. Which is the absolute worst reason I've ever heard to breed a dog you care about.

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I guess I don't really understand why you'd want to breed your poor long-recovering traumatized dog? Why would you want to put her through the major stress and health risks of a pregnancy if you don't even want a pup out of her? Because you know some people that might (or might not) buy a pup from a litter? Is it because you want to make money? Have you ever bred before? Do you know anything about the process, the tests she (and the pups) should have, or the vet care she'll need during pregnancy? Have you thought about what you'd be passing onto the wider border collie gene pool (besides no longer being terrified of stock :D )?

 

It sounds sort of like you want to breed her just to breed her. Which is the absolute worst reason I've ever heard to breed a dog you care about.

 

I don't necessarily want to breed her.

We may want a pup out of her but if all I wanted was a pup I would get another rescue dog.

THe pups are already gone as was the last litter we bred with another, now dead, BC and are still working the ranch with high marks.

MAKE MONEY? Shoot the last time we bred a BC we would ahve had to sell them for $1000 to break even :D:rolleyes:

I do know about the process and did all the necessary tests, vet visits, hand feeding etc.

THe reason I posted was to have some further insight into what might be passed on. For example is she leery of men because she is genetically shy or just because she was mistreated by a man. I didn't understand your last comment about no longer being terrified of stock. SHe has NEVER been terrified of stock just scared of me last year when we had stock. Heck she would not even come out of the kennel for 3 weeks (please search Ellie and read the entire story)

I don't want to breed her just to breed her. It is the worst reason I agree. we are trying to gather enough information so we can make a reasonable decision. I knew I'd get a little beat up here and that's ok.

Can maternal instincts overcome lingering fears? Would a pal make HER life richer? When my last BC Katie died I thought I might as well drag her up and get goldfish :D but we ended up getting Ellie at a probably difficult time.

Laurae Thanks for the help. These are all valuable points. We have asked ourselves some of the same questions as you can see from my first post.

Let me ask you this? How do you picture Ellie in your mind right now.

 

 

 

 

In my life she is sitting at the shop office door giving me the let's go play whine.

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What?

 

Why on earth would you breed an unsocialized, unproven parvo survivor you couldn't even tough for a year or whatever?

 

The real questions are " Would having pups be advantageous to a damaged dog well on her way to recovery or could she just walk away and leave a very big job for THE FABULOUS MS. LESLIE?"

 

No, the real questions are "Why did you neglect to insert your brain in your skull before you even entertained the thought of breeding this dog, much less post about it in a public forum?"

 

The single answer is "spay your dog."

 

No one needs puppies from that dog. And that dog does NOT need to whelp puppies.

 

I have to go back to lurking.

 

RDM

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What?

 

Why on earth would you breed an unsocialized, unproven parvo survivor you couldn't even tough for a year or whatever?

No, the real questions are "Why did you neglect to insert your brain in your skull before you even entertained the thought of breeding this dog, much less post about it in a public forum?"

 

The single answer is "spay your dog."

 

No one needs puppies from that dog. And that dog does NOT need to whelp puppies.

 

I have to go back to lurking.

 

RDM

 

Dear Mr. Snappy

Thanks ofr the snappy and well thought out reply. I always appreciate positive feedback. I don't know what you mean tough for a year. If you mean work with her Let me tell you mister I have been out with her every day rain shine 30 below snow on leash until she was finally able to be off leash and learn to bring come and not be afraid of me. I ask questions because I seek information from those with experience not societal demagogues.

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I do remember reading about her story, but if you want people to read about her history to make a semi-informed decision, you really should post a link or two to your previous posts, not put the onus on others to find them.

 

I do seem to recall that she is a rescue? In any case, it seems like you have no knowledge of her lines, and though you say she can crouch and circle stock, that really is no indication of her ability to work stock to high levels. Both of those factors (that you know nothing of her lines and she is unproven on stock) would preclude me from breeding her, period. A pal might make her life richer, but being forced to have puppies is a completely different thing altogether. If all you really want is a pal for Ellie (which is not what you said earlier, by the way), then go out and adopt or buy another dog.

 

She is horribly shy, and it may be genetic. You simply have no way to know if it is genetic. That is another reason that would absolutely preclude me from breeding her--there is a good chance all of her puppies would also be terribly shy. There are then a whole bunch of people who would then have to deal with exactly what you had to go through with Ellie. Do you know a whole lot of people willing to rehab a pup like you did? And would they then be more responsible than you and neuter them so that a further bunch more genetically shy pups wouldn't be born? Impossible to know, but I'd say the chances that a bunch of genetically shy pups would be added to the border collie gene pool is sadly pretty high if you breed your poor dog.

 

Breeding Ellie is a bad idea. For so many reasons. Really, a lot of reasons.

 

 

ETA: Your quote that

OK before I get jumped on about breeding a BC when there are so many at shelters please bear with me.

is unfair and not true. People here talk about breeding litters from time to time and nobody criticizes them, but the BIG difference is that they are breeding proven dogs who work at very high levels on stock in an effort to improve the breed (see recent litters discussed by Diane Pagel, Laura Hicks, and Elizabeth Baker, to name but a few).

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Aside from all the other reasons NOT to breed this dog, lets not forget the ONE reason to breed the dog. PROVEN WORKING ABILITY! So, she can come back when she's called, can she bring in the stock? can she hold stock for you? Sort, shed, what are this dogs positive attributes for even considering breeding this dog? Im confused as to why the thought has even crossed your mind if the dog hasnt proven herself on the feild on/with stock. Your work with this dog in order to prove this is a viable candidate for breeding has not even begun yet.

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No no no no no no no! For all the reasons above *especially because*:

 

1.) you do not know her lines and thus do not know if epilepsy or some other similar inherited condition could be lurking in them (even OFA and eye CERFs can't tell you what is lurking generations back)

 

2.) it is impossible to tell if her behavior is genetically based, but given the severity I would say it likely is (my girl was pretty undersocialized when I got her but with training could almost be considered normal and that change happened in about 2.5 years, after year 1 she was already much improved and from your reports it really doesn't sound like that's the level of progress Ellie has made; slow progress can signal a genetic basis ime)

 

3.) She has not proven her working ability (my girl eyes critters and has a gorgeous stalk outside of the field, on sheep she herds more like a cattle dog, what you have seen proves nothing about her abilities)

 

4.) We don't need more BCs being bred outside of responsible breeding programs. I know you didn't want someone "jumping on you" for this, but I have to say it - it's pretty darn true.

 

Do the responsible thing and spay your girl, enjoy her for what she is, and keep up all the good work you've been doing with her. She does not need to be bred to recover nor be a "whole" dog!

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I really don't see any good reasons to breed Ellie. Having a litter of pups is not going to change her in any way. The maternal instinct doesn't last that long, and there's a chance she wouldn't even get along with a pup if you kept one. If the local ranchers are in need of good working dogs, then they should be looking at pups from proven ranch workers, not an unknown (with respect to working ability) rescue dog. Besides which, if I bred a litter of pups (and I have) I would want to make sure they went to the best possible homes, and while I understand that sh** happens, I also know plenty of farmers who aren't losing dogs right and left to being run over, killed by coyotes, killed by cattle, etc. Is that really the sort of life into which you would want to send pups you bred?

 

As someone who raises livestock, I wouldn't even begin to take a chance on a pup out of a dog like that. Not when I can get pups out of top working dogs easily and for not a lot of $$.

 

Temperament is at least in part genetic, and so you would also run the risk of producing a bunch of shy pups. If she survived parvo she's lucky, but the fact that she tires more easily than most is in my mind two strikes against breeding: 1. because apparently she has some residual health effects from the bout with parvo that would make her not a good candidate for the stress of pregnancy and raising a litter, and 2. if for some reason the fact the she tires more easily than most is not related to her bout with parvo, then she's certainly not a good candidate for a ranch dog (or for producing same, since it's a trait that could be present in offspring), since the last thing a farmer or rancher needs is a dog that tires before the work is done.

 

It seems to me that the only real reason you have for wanting to breed her is that you think it will somehow help her mentally, and I just don't think that's the case. Heck, how often do you hear the experts telling humans not to have a baby because it's a mistaken belief that doing so will make whatever is wrong better? If it won't work for us, why would it work for a dog? Spay her and let her live a happy life as your companion.

 

J.

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IMO Ellie does not sound a good candidate for breeding. Aside from all of the very good opinions you've received here, many rescue dogs simply do NOT make good mothers. For example, my Katie who came into rescue pregnant refused to have anything to do with her pups - she had to be confined and supervised to even nurse them, she didn't try to hurt them, she just didn't want anything to do with them. Fortunately, her foster mom had an old spayed bitch who was very maternal who helped take care of the pups but they still required extra care and feeding. If Elllie had a similar reaction, how would this help her? Would you still have the time to give her the special attention she needs if you're busy taking care of a litter of pups?

 

Again, it's just my opinion, what Ellie needs is what you've been giving her - time, love, attention, etc. If you decide she (or you) need another dog, there are young dogs in rescue that have stable temperaments, are healthy, etc. or even an older dog which might be good role model for her.

 

I also think spaying her might do her a lot more good than breeding her. She wouldn't be subjected to the stress of her heat cycles, distracted by male dogs, etc.

 

Soliciting opinions from the Board shows that you have some reservations about breeding Ellie or you would just gone ahead and bred her.

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I went back to your first thread and see that Ellie was a shelter dog. I didn't read your threads after that, so I don't know if you were able to find out why she was so severely shy. Without knowing more, I'd say any dog who reacted that way simply to being in a shelter probably has a genetic predisposition to shyness. I say this as the owner of four former shelter dogs, none of whom have ever displayed any shyness whatsoever - and the former owner of a fear-biting spooky murderous chow who was treated well from the day he first hit the ground until the day he passed on to his reward. All his littermates were the exact same way.

 

All that to say, I think you'd have a better than even chance of whelping a whole litter with a temperament just like their dam's. And I know you love her - I loved my crazy dog, too - but it's just not a good idea to make more. :rolleyes:

 

Anyway, as others have said, really no BC should be bred from unless it's proven itself an exceptional worker. It's great to own BC who aren't exceptional workers - but please don't breed from them.

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I do remember reading about her story, but if you want people to read about her history to make a semi-informed decision, you really should post a link or two to your previous posts, not put the onus on others to find them.

 

I do seem to recall that she is a rescue? In any case, it seems like you have no knowledge of her lines, and though you say she can crouch and circle stock, that really is no indication of her ability to work stock to high levels. Both of those factors (that you know nothing of her lines and she is unproven on stock) would preclude me from breeding her, period. A pal might make her life richer, but being forced to have puppies is a completely different thing altogether. If all you really want is a pal for Ellie (which is not what you said earlier, by the way), then go out and adopt or buy another dog.

 

She is horribly shy, and it may be genetic. You simply have no way to know if it is genetic. That is another reason that would absolutely preclude me from breeding her--there is a good chance all of her puppies would also be terribly shy. There are then a whole bunch of people who would then have to deal with exactly what you had to go through with Ellie. Do you know a whole lot of people willing to rehab a pup like you did? And would they then be more responsible than you and neuter them so that a further bunch more genetically shy pups wouldn't be born? Impossible to know, but I'd say the chances that a bunch of genetically shy pups would be added to the border collie gene pool is sadly pretty high if you breed your poor dog.

 

Breeding Ellie is a bad idea. For so many reasons. Really, a lot of reasons.

ETA: Your quote that

 

is unfair and not true. People here talk about breeding litters from time to time and nobody criticizes them, but the BIG difference is that they are breeding proven dogs who work at very high levels on stock in an effort to improve the breed (see recent litters discussed by Diane Pagel, Laura Hicks, and Elizabeth Baker, to name but a few).

 

I'd post the links to the story if I knew how! :rolleyes: And she is not exactly a rescue more like a ransom. When Katie was killed I was bereft and after a week in an ocean of misery off we went to a breeder here in Colorado. We only went to maybe get a puppy but when I saw Ellie, nee Kay, in this tiger cage I just could not leave her there. THe breeder said he wasn't sellikng her and was keeping her to breed but I persisted and succeeded. Grief needs a better counselor than I. I am just a poor old combat vet that knows the continued pain of constant loss.

More than likely there are many more people more responsible than me about many things, thank goodness. I asked some of these questions so I could get answers from people that have had this experience not a lecture. I am not a professional stock dog trainer/breeder just a guy that had dogs and worked cows and it seemed to work out. Our previous pups are doing quite well working here on the mesa. I am not looking for competition working dogs. I can leave that up to you as you seem to be very concerned about the breeds capability to work competitively. Perhaps you could give me the benfit of the doubt but that doesn't seem to be your way.

BTW she is really only shy around me and in only 10 months of hard work will come to call and sit by me. Maybe 6'6" 250# guy makes her nervous; does that to a lot of people.

I want a dog that can help Ellie learn. I want a dog that can be my other 1/2 as was Katie. Questions seem to work better than assumptions. If you like drop me a private note and I'll give you my phone number so we can talk. Typing is one of the many things I have yet to accomplish!!!!!

Oh her ABCA number is 307061 and IF we breed her the male would be ABCA 275057.

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I went back to your first thread and see that Ellie was a shelter dog. I didn't read your threads after that, so I don't know if you were able to find out why she was so severely shy. Without knowing more, I'd say any dog who reacted that way simply to being in a shelter probably has a genetic predisposition to shyness. I say this as the owner of four former shelter dogs, none of whom have ever displayed any shyness whatsoever - and the former owner of a fear-biting spooky murderous chow who was treated well from the day he first hit the ground until the day he passed on to his reward. All his littermates were the exact same way.

 

All that to say, I think you'd have a better than even chance of whelping a whole litter with a temperament just like their dam's. And I know you love her - I loved my crazy dog, too - but it's just not a good idea to make more. :D

 

Anyway, as others have said, really no BC should be bred from unless it's proven itself an exceptional worker. It's great to own BC who aren't exceptional workers - but please don't breed from them.

 

Thank you for the most civilized answer. She was not exactly a shelter dog. She did come from a breeder that IMHO runs a raggedy operation. I have asked for assistance and guidance in investigating this operation but with little success. So you see she was actually a ransom dog and we should have named her Scarlett O'Hara! THe breeder either conned me by telling me she wasn't for sale or was actually keeping her to breed. Either way if I had had a horse whip I might have used it. I have had 5 BC's and only bred 1 and now maybe 2. Josey Wales, the first one, had spectacular pups. THe raanchers here who have them swear by them. So who knows. My parents were the best and all 7 of us turned out just fine but 1 had severe learning difficulties. So who really knows. He was a middle child. :rolleyes:

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IMO Ellie does not sound a good candidate for breeding. Aside from all of the very good opinions you've received here, many rescue dogs simply do make good mothers. For example, my Katie who came into rescue pregnant refused to have anything to do with her pups - she had to be confined and supervised to even nurse them, she didn't try to hurt them, she just didn't want anything to do with them. Fortunately, her foster mom had an old spayed bitch who was very maternal who helped take care of the pups but they still required extra care and feeding. If Elllie had a similar reaction, how would this help her? Would you still have the time to give her the special attention she needs if you're busy taking care of a litter of pups?

 

Again, it's just my opinion, what Ellie needs is what you've been giving her - time, love, attention, etc. If you decide she (or you) need another dog, there are young dogs in rescue that have stable temperaments, are healthy, etc. or even an older dog which might be good role model for her.

 

I also think spaying her might do her a lot more good than breeding her. She wouldn't be subjected to the stress of her heat cycles, distracted by male dogs, etc.

 

Soliciting opinions from the Board shows that you have some reservations about breeding Ellie or you would just gone ahead and bred her.

 

Again thanks for an enlightening answer! I appreciate all useful feedback. And yes we are still unsure about breeding her. Good old Josey Wales, a working BC from WY, was bitten and got an infection when she was nursing her pups. I love gruel but not that much :rolleyes::D And that is the crux of the question. THe answer is of course the great unknown and is may be better to conservatively err and get a shelter BC. I am NOT against that. For me the bonding from puppy to dog is the strongest. As I write and think about all this tears still run down my face even after a year of missing Katie. I know there is no replacement, no substitutions, no chance of reversing the clock but like the shrink said "what the hell we need the eggs" :D

 

Oh if we did breed her it would be one time and then under the knife. She is entering her cycle now. And yes I ahve found the opinions of the board most valuable in even getting Ellie to become a normal dog. Thanks for that.

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I am not looking for competition working dogs. I can leave that up to you as you seem to be very concerned about the breeds capability to work competitively.

 

I never said one word about working competitively. Just the ability to work to a high level as a minimum to breed. They are hardly mutually exclusive.

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I really don't see any good reasons to breed Ellie. Having a litter of pups is not going to change her in any way. The maternal instinct doesn't last that long, and there's a chance she wouldn't even get along with a pup if you kept one. If the local ranchers are in need of good working dogs, then they should be looking at pups from proven ranch workers, not an unknown (with respect to working ability) rescue dog. Besides which, if I bred a litter of pups (and I have) I would want to make sure they went to the best possible homes, and while I understand that sh** happens, I also know plenty of farmers who aren't losing dogs right and left to being run over, killed by coyotes, killed by cattle, etc. Is that really the sort of life into which you would want to send pups you bred?

 

As someone who raises livestock, I wouldn't even begin to take a chance on a pup out of a dog like that. Not when I can get pups out of top working dogs easily and for not a lot of $$.

 

Temperament is at least in part genetic, and so you would also run the risk of producing a bunch of shy pups. If she survived parvo she's lucky, but the fact that she tires more easily than most is in my mind two strikes against breeding: 1. because apparently she has some residual health effects from the bout with parvo that would make her not a good candidate for the stress of pregnancy and raising a litter, and 2. if for some reason the fact the she tires more easily than most is not related to her bout with parvo, then she's certainly not a good candidate for a ranch dog (or for producing same, since it's a trait that could be present in offspring), since the last thing a farmer or rancher needs is a dog that tires before the work is done.

 

It seems to me that the only real reason you have for wanting to breed her is that you think it will somehow help her mentally, and I just don't think that's the case. Heck, how often do you hear the experts telling humans not to have a baby because it's a mistaken belief that doing so will make whatever is wrong better? If it won't work for us, why would it work for a dog? Spay her and let her live a happy life as your companion.

 

J.

 

1 and 2 excellent food for thought. Good solid evidence.

I too know ranchers that have had the same dogs for years and some that have lost some. Now and then these are the same people. It's not endemic just happens as you say.

Just talking this out is a big help as they are all answers we can throw in the pot.

I understand BC rescue need to insure that dog is going to a good home; to someone that understands the breed and the work it takes however I found the paperwork onerous. BE good to find a breeder like John Katz did in "A Dog Year".

I agree about the baby part.

Thanks so much for the guidance. I am culling from this list so we can make a good decision

Ellie

ABCA 307061

possible prom date :rolleyes: ABCA 275057

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Are you prepared to deal with the fact that something might go wrong with a pregnancy or whelping? Is it worth the risk of breeding her? Do you have the finances to deal with a emergency c-section or similar complication? And are you able to place any pups in homes where there is no possible chance that what happened to Ellie would happen to them?

 

I have a dog who is my heart dog. She came to me as a 3 y/o intact with papers. She had a rough upbringing and was miserable before I got her. I worked with her to get through her issues and she became a nice farm helper for me. I actually thought about breeding her a couple times. A successful trial handler who I took a few lessons from even asked me if she was registered and intact because he really liked what he saw in her during the lessons.

 

I ultimately decided against it and had her spayed because she had some anxiety issues, she hadn't fully proved herself in a variety of working situations, I didn't know enough to go about breeding a litter, I wasn't ready for the responsibility of placing a litter of pups, and I really, really did not want to risk anything happening to her.

 

I want a dog that can help Ellie learn. I want a dog that can be my other 1/2 as was Katie.

 

I really think your best way of getting a dog like that is by rescuing a young adult BC. There are plenty out there in shelters and rescue who are more than ready to fit that bill if given the chance.

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No no no no no no no! For all the reasons above *especially because*:

 

1.) you do not know her lines and thus do not know if epilepsy or some other similar inherited condition could be lurking in them (even OFA and eye CERFs can't tell you what is lurking generations back)

 

2.) it is impossible to tell if her behavior is genetically based, but given the severity I would say it likely is (my girl was pretty undersocialized when I got her but with training could almost be considered normal and that change happened in about 2.5 years, after year 1 she was already much improved and from your reports it really doesn't sound like that's the level of progress Ellie has made; slow progress can signal a genetic basis ime)

 

 

3.) She has not proven her working ability (my girl eyes critters and has a gorgeous stalk outside of the field, on sheep she herds more like a cattle dog, what you have seen proves nothing about her abilities)

 

 

4.) We don't need more BCs being bred outside of responsible breeding programs. I know you didn't want someone "jumping on you" for this, but I have to say it - it's pretty darn true.

 

Do the responsible thing and spay your girl, enjoy her for what she is, and keep up all the good work you've been doing with her. She does not need to be bred to recover nor be a "whole" dog!

 

I do know her lines

in 10 months, 6 of which were a good winter, she has progressed to getting in the car, but not the truck, sitting on the couch and not hiding behind the chair, calling me to come "play"

She has no proven working ability but then neither did the other pups we had and they are working cows just fine.

I agree wholeheartedly on #4 and it cannot be said enough.

Heck if I was back running 500 pair on 15000 acres I would not even be asking these questions but I'm not!

 

Copy that on your last. I am keeping all the experiences so we can cull 'em down. I'm surely not looking to just breed a dog. Heck I don't even have any kids so I think that says where I stand!

Thanks again

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Are you prepared to deal with the fact that something might go wrong with a pregnancy or whelping? Is it worth the risk of breeding her? Do you have the finances to deal with a emergency c-section or similar complication? And are you able to place any pups in homes where there is no possible chance that what happened to Ellie would happen to them?

 

I have a dog who is my heart dog. She came to me as a 3 y/o intact with papers. She had a rough upbringing and was miserable before I got her. I worked with her to get through her issues and she became a nice farm helper for me. I actually thought about breeding her a couple times. A successful trial handler who I took a few lessons from even asked me if she was registered and intact because he really liked what he saw in her during the lessons.

 

I ultimately decided against it and had her spayed because she had some anxiety issues, she hadn't fully proved herself in a variety of working situations, I didn't know enough to go about breeding a litter, I wasn't ready for the responsibility of placing a litter of pups, and I really, really did not want to risk anything happening to her.

 

 

 

I really think your best way of getting a dog like that is by rescuing a young adult BC. There are plenty out there in shelters and rescue who are more than ready to fit that bill if given the chance.

 

Maralynn whoa excellent post ma'am. It just about covers all the questions and emotions I have about this decision.

I do have the finances and the placement would be no problem but the rest of your post says it all. I lost my heart dog and have worked and worked (not done yet!!!!!!!) to get this papered Bette Davis back to the planet and she will come back. Your second and third paragraphs hit the mark. Thanks.

I'll keep all posted of the decision we make. Know of any good dogs that need the home?

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The way I see it, you've already had 6 months from the last heat cycle till now, to make this decision, and you didnt get her spayed during this time. Asking if we know of any males you could use, and already stating that you have another male or two picked out, leads me to believe that this discussion is a moot point. All the info that you have been given, for all the reasons stated, wether you agree with them or not, is sound advise, from folks that arent so concerned with how you feel, in as much as they, and I, are concerned about the breed itself. No matter in what context it is written or taken when read it still spells the same thing. Breed for working ability. Breed only proven dogs. Especially, if you intend to place these pups in working homes.

Just my 02. cents. I can only hope that with all the advise youve been given here, it makes some impact on your decision.

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The way I see it, you've already had 6 months from the last heat cycle till now, to make this decision, and you didnt get her spayed during this time. Asking if we know of any males you could use, and already stating that you have another male or two picked out, leads me to believe that this discussion is a moot point. All the info that you have been given, for all the reasons stated, wether you agree with them or not, is sound advise, from folks that arent so concerned with how you feel, in as much as they, and I, are concerned about the breed itself. No matter in what context it is written or taken when read it still spells the same thing. Breed for working ability. Breed only proven dogs. Especially, if you intend to place these pups in working homes.

Just my 02. cents. I can only hope that with all the advise youve been given here, it makes some impact on your decision.

 

it is late

I wasn't asking for a dog to breed with but one that needed a home. Believe what you what but a question or two is a better way to elicit or provide information. Try it sometime. And I did not ask you just asked someone that empathized and provided personal experience relative to the matter at hand.

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Aside from all of the very good opinions you've received here, many rescue dogs simply do NOT make good mothers.

 

Clarification:

 

I went back to edit the above sentence because I failed to include the word "not" in my original post. I think the entire post, however, clearly showed my reservations about breeding Ellie.

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Personal experience is where all that we/ I have said comes from that "is" relative to this matter.

What questions would you have me ask? I already did ask questions, you didnt answer them.

The breed does not need folks that empathize, it needs folks to realize that you breed for working abilty first and foremost.

Im through with this, its getting nowhere. If some one doesnt sugar coat thier advise and suggestions, that "do" come from experience, you dont want to hear it anyway.

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Based on what you write of Ellie's severe shyness, that would rule her out in my book as a candidate for breeding. As others have pointed out, shyness has a strong genetic base. Other dogs treated similarly to Ellie don't show the fears you describe.

 

My first Sheltie was cripplingly shy. With time, training and patience, he acted normal more days than not but he was still who he was. He came to live with me at 7 weeks, went all kinds of places with me right from the start and was always treated kindly.

 

I have a soft spot in my heart for shy dogs but theirs is a hard road (and it ain't so easy for their owners). I wouldn't want to risk the chance of Ellie passing that trait on to her pups, even if you found out she was a very good worker.

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