laurie etc Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 In light of Bart's debut video - I have two nice pups. I see a lot of great things in them, but I'm a bit paranoid about pushing them too fast, and burning them out. I've been very conservative with them so far. Looking for hints as to how to proceed ... The male turned a year the end of December and started like Bart, all business. He was sooooo serious, and seemed to have all the right stuff mentally. Scary at 10 weeks old! Very bold and afraid of nothing. Has had nice casts from the beginning, but recently gets a wild hair sometimes and slices in (mostly caused by occasional lambs darting about). I basically started him like Bart, then tried him maybe once a month, until he turned a year old. Mostly just wearing/walk-abouts around a big field, and letting him feel and cover his sheep. Keeping things calm and low-key. He still won't take a lie down, but will stand when I ask for it, and block him. He's seeming more mature, but at the same time, started challenging me a bit on the stopping, and calling off. His lie down is great off of sheep, but he doesn't seem to "get it" with the pressure of the sheep. I "think" it's time to put a little pressure on him for the down and to stop the occasional slicing silliness. What do you think? My goal is to keep his naturalness, but get reliable stops. I'd also like to start adding more structure so I can begin actual outruns instead of just flanking/casting around with the sheep close. I have another one who is 10 months old. Very natural, thoughtful, calm, but softer than the boy - (easier to pressure into moving away - has never really tried to "beat me".) Started nicely at the same age, then not much until the last couple of weeks. Moved from the round pen after a session into a 200x 100 area. Her lie downs are lovely, just by letting her balance and blocking her a bit. I'd like to move her to the bigger field and start the wearing /walk-abouts. I feel like she is going to come along faster than the boy above (she's more receptive to subtle pressure) but I don't want to rush her or pressure her too fast. What would you suggest? Laurie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rac Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 Just a couple thoughts... If your dog is willing to give you a standing stop why do you feel the need to make him lie down, esp. when you think/know it's going to require 'pressure' from you to get it ? You seem to be concerned about him being able to handle the pressure, well... just don't go there. (imho) As far as training in general, a person I consider one of my mentors said that, "when they're ready, pour it to 'em." I think he had a good point. Only you will know when your dog is ready for more training and at what pace. I try to make the most out of the time when I feel the dog is receptive without pushing too far too fast. Trying too soon is too much like pulling teeth, and waiting too long might miss the time when their 'window' is wide open. Ray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted March 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 Just a couple thoughts... If your dog is willing to give you a standing stop why do you feel the need to make him lie down, esp. when you think/know it's going to require 'pressure' from you to get it ? You seem to be concerned about him being able to handle the pressure, well... just don't go there. (imho) As far as training in general, a person I consider one of my mentors said that, "when they're ready, pour it to 'em." I think he had a good point. Only you will know when your dog is ready for more training and at what pace. I try to make the most out of the time when I feel the dog is receptive without pushing too far too fast. Trying too soon is too much like pulling teeth, and waiting too long might miss the time when their 'window' is wide open. Ray Hi- thanks! I guess I think he needs a down because his "stand" is still pressuring the sheep- he's not mentally "in neutral" in his stand. So when I want to start adding flanks and such, I'll need him to have a neutral gear, right? I don't mind the stand, if I could get him to understand that he needs to "lighten up" and release some pressure on the sheep in that position. It's often when I ask him to down that he does his "explosive slice". I've been asking him to stand steady for longer, see if that will let him relax some. I have an older bitch that much prefers stand to down, which is fine (even though I say lie down, she usually just stops low on her feet, and that is OK with me.) I guess I'm not sure either one of these pups are ready to "pour it to 'em", but I don't want to miss (or boggle) that window either. Laurie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearse Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 Hi- thanks! I guess I think he needs a down because his "stand" is still pressuring the sheep- he's not mentally "in neutral" in his stand. But, if he is stopped then the sheep can move away from the pressure until they aren't feeling it. Are you sure he's putting pressure on the sheep when stopped and not that the sheep are just dog broke enough to keep moving to you or towards some other draw on the field? So when I want to start adding flanks and such, I'll need him to have a neutral gear, right? I don't mind the stand, if I could get him to understand that he needs to "lighten up" and release some pressure on the sheep in that position. It's often when I ask him to down that he does his "explosive slice". I've been asking him to stand steady for longer, see if that will let him relax some. That might cause more of a problem (making him stand longer) as it increases his anxiety that he will lose the sheep, and result in tight flanks. The way I look at it is that a young dog's biggest drive is to hold the sheep to you and his biggest fear is letting the sheep get away. It takes time to build that trust in you that if he does what you ask, he will not lose control of the sheep. So, with a young dog, I think if you get a stop at all on balance, move off balance and flank the dog. Keep doing that until the dog is convinced that stopping is not going to result in losing control. Once they "get" this and relax, then you can ask for off balance and inside flanks, and once they get that, you can ask for longer downs letting the sheep drift off a bit because by then the dog will trust you that doing what you ask won't result in the sheep getting away. Of course, for this to work, you need the sheep and the training set up so that the sheep don't get away from the dog. I think of it like teaching a kid to ride a bike without training wheels. You run along behind with your hand on the seat until the kid trusts you that you won't let him fall, then you take your hand away for increasingly longer periods while the kid can't see you doing it until you know he can ride the bike on his own. Then one day you just stand back and let him do it. Training a dog is rather like that. They have the skills. What they need is the confidence and trust to believe that doing what you ask, rather than what they think they ought to do, will result in control rather than loss of control. At least, that's the way I'm coming to look at it working with this young dog I have right now. Pearse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 Hi, Laurie. I'll go ahead and jump in here, after having just watched Bart's video, and try to address your question there as to where does one go from there? I know this will not be the popular answer, and, of course, it depends on the dog totally, as far as maturity, and it certainly depends on the trainer a lot, too, but I have started the last 4 of my own pups at 12 weeks. I do basically what Bart was doing--just let them go around, I try to help them go to balance, and then I back up to the fence, and ask for a down. Mine all have some concept of a down before we get to the stock, and I don't pressure them into taking it at this point, but when I back up and the sheep stop and I stop, often they will either take the down or at least a standing stop for a brief moment. Then it's back to moving the sheep. The bloodlines I have, and I keep girls, who generally do mature faster, all seem to be really level-headed at a very young age. If the tail is down and they seem serious, I move forward, GENTLY. From this stage in the small/round pen, I'll move outside with just do walkabouts, maybe for months, just letting them feel their stock, repositioning to keep the balance. If their lie down is kind of OK, I may park them and move the sheep off and let them do little gathers, and so on. If they get the hang of that pretty well, I will start letting them do little jobs--taking the sheep out of the overnight pen, putting them back in at night, gate sorting a group to use for class, etc. Short little works, no pressure, but at the same time making sure they are doing things properly, and most importantly, learning to feel their stock. I also make sure that I use stock that are appropriate for their level of maturity, confidence, and physicality, so no threatening sheep, or too flighty that the pup can't cover. The main thing is that there is no pressure whatsoever--we're just out there moving the sheep around and having a good time. Low key. I know this method does not work for all dogs or all handlers, but it works for me and the dogs I have. As they begin to progress, and I think that they are ready for something new, I'll try it--if they handle it, fine. If not, we just back up a bit. I know that a lot of people say that that's way too young to really start them, and that it will ruin them in the long run. I have not seen evidence of that yet (the first one I started at that age will be 7 next month). Actually, I think, if handled properly, meaning no pressure, that it really helps them to learn to use their brains. They still have lots of play time, and time to be silly pups, but on stock, they tend to really be business-like, and I never have to really push later on to get them to use their heads, as that has already become second nature. My .02 for a lovely Sunday afternoon, A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Wall Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 The only dog I've ever worked consistently at a very young age is Mick. He first got out into the field to help his mom at 7 weeks and was working right off, tail down and dead serious, going as hard as he could go to gather the sheep and keep them all together. He had already been throwing down and working the house cat as soon as he could walk. By the time he was 12 weeks, I was letting him go around sheep a bit several times a week. I had perfect sheep for him, about 30 weaned lambs, and he wasn't doing anything wrong to need any pressure from me. He would gather, fetch, wear and do a little driving without any training. I worked him like that until he was about 8 months old. Then I started asking him to down and such. Mick did well as a nursery dog and at 10 years old, is still going strong. Looking back, I don't think I would do anything differently if I had it to do over again. Some dogs are just like that from the beginning. I can't say it hurt him and I can't say it helped him to spend all of that early time on sheep. I went by my gut feeling. They're all different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 Like Denise said, they're all different. I worked Zac pretty consistently from about 16 weeks on. Actually, right at 16 weeks, i tried nearly every pup in his litter, and they were all serious, tails down, etc, so i felt pretty okay just taking him out to do some balance work and such from then on. You just watch them to see what their attitudes are like, and train when they're in the right frame of mind and put them away when they're not. You can actually get a lot on a dog without much pressure. My Moss dog is just now (16 months) ready to take some actual pressure in training and if you saw him you'd just about think he was trained. He runs out a long way, is started driving, can do all kinds of chores and even sheds pretty well. (His most recent video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7BF8u3Ajho ) But I've not done the big pressure stuff like off balance flanks, or even insisting that he know his flanks yet because he's not been ready to take it. As soon as he is, he'll be ready for trials in no time because he's had all that low pressure training done in advance. You just have to watch their attitude and if they're enjoying it, you're fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 Hey, Good thread again- especially since I've got my own puppy prodigy to deal with. I kept saying "I'll put her up for awhile" but it's just so darn fun to have a keen, clever pup. I did find that I had to move into a larger area to keep things moving for her- bottled up in small areas, puppy "badness" crept in but in a larger area with good sheep, she's got enough to do to keep the bad thoughts banished for now. Jet is six months now, and doing nice walkabouts, pushy but not cheating/slicing much. She likes to down on balance, so have used that but tried to get her right up before it becomes an issue. Will probably try to get her to stop on her feet, eventually. She did have some "handler input" problems at first, but having her drag a light line has changed her attitude from "what are you doing here?" to "What are we going to do with these sheep?" I keep things short and try to encourage her natural traits without too much pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted March 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 But, if he is stopped then the sheep can move away from the pressure until they aren't feeling it. Are you sure he's putting pressure on the sheep when stopped and not that the sheep are just dog broke enough to keep moving to you or towards some other draw on the field?That might cause more of a problem (making him stand longer) as it increases his anxiety that he will lose the sheep, and result in tight flanks. The way I look at it is that a young dog's biggest drive is to hold the sheep to you and his biggest fear is letting the sheep get away. It takes time to build that trust in you that if he does what you ask, he will not lose control of the sheep. So, with a young dog, I think if you get a stop at all on balance, move off balance and flank the dog. Keep doing that until the dog is convinced that stopping is not going to result in losing control. Once they "get" this and relax, then you can ask for off balance and inside flanks, and once they get that, you can ask for longer downs letting the sheep drift off a bit because by then the dog will trust you that doing what you ask won't result in the sheep getting away. ...What they need is the confidence and trust to believe that doing what you ask, rather than what they think they ought to do, will result in control rather than loss of control. Pearse Thanks! Thinking about the scenario... By pressuring the sheep, I guess I meant he wasn't relaxing, and the sheep kept ending up on my feet. These particular sheep do like to be on top of me, they look at humans as "the safe place". Most recently, I did go back to using these really dog broke older wethers because the yearlings I had been working at my friend's place were getting "sour". They were almost too dog broke, but occasionally would just get crabby and decide not to respond to pressure from the dog, turn on the dog, or split off and cause my pups to want to chase. Most of the ewes at this farm have lambs right now, and I won't work them with the young dogs. I might get brave and work him in a smaller area on my own wethers (that are really light, but at least not sour). So, I will try not requiring him to stand so long, and keep the flow going. He is a good boy, and wants to be honest. But, you're right, he needs to discover he has control and he won't lose his sheep just because he relaxes and/or listens to me. I haven't asked for anything but on balance stops from him yet, mostly just moving around and keeping him moving around the sheep in wide arcs, changing directions to encourage him to cover. I'll just keep doing that until I see more relaxation. Laurie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted March 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 Thanks everyone else, too. This is helping me think more about the pups as individuals and get a game plan together. The nice thing is that having more than one pup to train, which means I don't have to feel rushed with either of them. I know they all develop at different speeds, and, so I am just playing it by ear with each of them. Historically, I have always gotten along better with bitches and mares, so that may be one reason I'm not "getting it together" as well with my male pup. I'm also gun shy because I just placed a well bred 2 1/2 year old male as a pet (to my boyfriend) who was pretty much a washout. He started out looking like he had all the right stuff although he was very soft. I babied him along, and didn't pressure him at all, but he wouldn't tolerate any structure. By two he was leaving the field if everything didn't go "his way" (which sometimes involved gripping sheep from anxiety, then running out of the field). Sweetheart of a dog otherwise, and he is loving the couch potato life. I really don't think it as anything I did to make him this way, but you can't help having that nagging feeling. Laurie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRhodes Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 I do about the same as Stockdogranch (Anna?) but I switch from sheep/goats to Holstein calves pretty quick. I want to see a potential in a pup at a fairly young age, if not, they don't hang around here very long. I don't have the time/patience/money to spend on one that isn't going to turn out. Also, you don't have to be putting pressure on a pup to be training it or it learning from what it's doing. Just let the pup go and work, when it goes around on the come bye side say 'come bye' when it goes around on the away side say 'away', when the pup goes to balance and you walk back and the sheep follow with the pup behind say 'there, walk up'. Etc, etc. You're not making or pressuring the pup to do anything, you're justing putting words to what the pup is doing naturally, and the pup learns to associate the action with your words. You might do that for months then one day you say 'come bye' and the pup goes and does it because every time he's heard that word he's gone that direction. Tony McCallum calls this training method imprinting and he has a dvd that shows his training method. He starts his dogs on sheep or goats and eventually goes to cattle. The video actually doesn't show that much cattle work, it's more about the process he uses to get there, he starts all his pups around 8 weeks. Here's a really interesting article by Tony from the Stockdog Journal: Part One and Part Two. The first part is mostly his philosophy about working/training dogs and the second half is more about pups, how he chooses them and how he starts them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Hi, Nicole. Yup, I put 'em on dog broke (beef) calves pretty quick, too, depending on the pup. Generally, when they know enough to go around and bring them, I will start them on calves, sometimes with an older dog along for the first time or two as backup, and to let the pup understand what actions are allowed when they get challenged. That's usually by the time they are about 5 months old... I've not read Tony's stuff, but this is just what my training has evolved into over the years... A(nna) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 Ted's my first pup that I've successfully gotten this far with on my own - with help from instructors, of course. Well, not counting Ben. There was a distinct point when all the pieces were there at the same time and he was mentally mature enough to take the training needed to shape them in the right direction. Robin at one lesson at that point started saying, "He's a sponge - he's ready to soak up whatever you can throw at him now!" Unfortunately, I threw a bunch of really stupid stuff at him at that point and set us both back, but we are on the right track now and I can really see and feel it. You could see all the pieces very early with Ted, too, but he definitely wasn't ready. Maybe with a more talented trainer and the right sort of training sheep he could have been made to be ready. I'm satisfied with his progress though and he's now taken over as "number one" here, with reservations (no long outruns yet). Since he's still a few months shy of two years old, what more could you ask? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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