pet dog owners / Stock dog owners

[Ruger's Dad]

When I bought Ruger from the sheep dog trainer who had a 900 acre farm, it was never my intention to work him on sheep. I bought him because I wanted another dog to fool around with and train. I have spent countless hours in the last year and a half throwing frisbees, walking with the dogs, going for short trips, and generally just having a ball.

 

If that offends some sheep rancher that my dog is not herding sheep I just have one thing to say. GET A LIFE. Watching Ruger's parents herd is something I will never forget. However, that is not why I bought him. My wife's dog is a Springer Spaniel. She will never go bird hunting. I have a Corvette, I will never go road racing. I have a four wheel drive truck which I have taken off road once.

 

Do I have a sense of team with the dogs. I don't know because ultimately they are just dogs. Dogs are not the center of my life, but I am the center of their lives. As long as that relationship stands then everything is just fine.

 

In the mean time, Border Collies are the best dang dog in the world. Bar none. One of these days when Casey the Springer is gone, I will get another Border Collie. He probably won't herd either.

[Anda]

Rudger's Dad, it's funny I was JUST thinking this afternoon of the same comparison, having a 4 wheel drive truck or an SUV but not going off roading. Doesn't make one owner less of an SUV owner Great for those who go off road, but for a city person, it just provides more safety (although lot to say about the safty of other smaller vehicles around an SUV - I know, I have both a Mazda MX6 and a Trailblazer). I don't go nuts with my sports car, or off roading with the SUV

[Ruger's Dad]

Anda: When you really stop and think, how many dog owners use their dogs for what they are bred I will bet its less than one percent. To think you have to use a dog for what it is bred for is ridiculous. The most common reason a person owns a dog is companionship. Anything above that is a bonus.

 

When I was a teenager we had a German Shorthair. We hunted her for a few years. Those were the good ole days. She was a sweetie.

 

There will be snobs in any sport or hobbie that you take up. But I have found out through this board that their are plenty of people just crazy about Border Collies. I love reading about other peoples experiences. This is especially true when you know their are people just as nutty as us all over the world.

[fooshuman]

*edit* lol wrong spot

 

Oh ok now that i read some of this thread.

 

Mr. Fosher does have a valid point. *I believe he speaks the truth* Just watch a BC doing what it is bred for vs. anything else. It is what they were bred to do, and it is a "different" kind of relationship hands down.

 

Is it better? depends on the handler.

 

I have never herded anything with my dogs. Truth be know i am more or less a frisbee BC owner. I have been lucky enough to live in an area where every spring there is a fun run. My beloved Foo even stole the thunder one year with her frisbee antics! We were a team yes, but we weren't the same kind of team as those who worked sheep.

 

Was Foo not as happy as those dogs? Depends on the way they were treated!

 

I try not to make judgements on what people do with their dogs, be it pet, work, or therapy. I try and look at how they treat them, the knowledge the possess of them, and the health of their animals.

 

Are all stockdog owners better then pet/sport dog owners? No!

Are all Pet/Sport owners better then stockdog owners No!

Thing is BCs should never be bred for anything except herding sheep. (this method hasn't failed us yet) Which i believe we all agree on! Ack i lost my train of thought due to a cold wet nose!

 

Nothing is black and white besides our dogs! *and even all of them aren't!*

[Bill Fosher]

I didn't ever say that my experience with my dogs is better than anyone else's; just that it is different. I feel that it's more complete than any other experience that I've had with any other dogs that I've owned or known. My comments were in response to a statement that the bond between a therapy dog and handler was the same as the bond between a shepherd and sheep dog -- a statement with which I disagree.

 

The analogy about the steak on the grill was intended not to say my experience is better than anyone else's, just that it has more dimensions. I happen to like it better than anything else I've ever done with a dog, but I do realize that it's not for everyone.

 

However, I have to say that the attitude expressed by Ruger's Dad -- that he just wanted a dog to train and mess around with -- makes me wonder why he needed a Border collie. I also wonder why he needs a four-wheel drive truck and a Corvette. If it's just because he wants them and can afford them, well, I suppose there's no law against that. But it does strike me as odd.

 

A 2-wheel drive truck would get you where you need to go most of the time in Tennesee, the maintenance would be less, and the truck would be cheaper to buy in the first place. There are plenty of cars on the road that would be more economical to drive than the Corvette and would do just as good a job getting you from point A to point B. There are lots of dogs in the pound that would love to be messed around with and trained and given a home and that would make lovely companions.

 

Sure, the Border collie, the 4X4, and the Corvette are cooler than the more practical alternatives, it just bugs me that the dog is a stutus symbol like the vehicles. Reminds me of the people I see heading up to the ski areas from the flatlands of Connecticut and New Jersey in their Hummers. As I said, no law against it.

 

And always remember: four wheel drive does not equal four wheel stop.

[juliepoudrier]

Originally posted by Ruger's Dad:

Anda: When you really stop and think, how many dog owners use their dogs for what they are bred I will bet its less than one percent. To think you have to use a dog for what it is bred for is ridiculous. The most common reason a person owns a dog is companionship. Anything above that is a bonus.

While this sentiment may be true for a large number of dog owners, the fact is that there are quite a number of us, with various breeds, who DO use our dogs for what they were bred for and we'd like to continue to be able to find such useful dogs in the future. No one is slamming you for not using your dog for what it was bred for, but as has been said ad nauseum in this thread and others, if everyone takes such a cavalier attitude toward the purpose-bred dog (whether it be a stockdog or a hunting dog) that breeding moves away from the purpose, then sooner or later, those purpose-bred dogs will cease to be useful for the work that at least some of us need them for.

 

And isn't is sad that this same argument put forth by Ruger's Dad is *always* put forth in these kinds of discussions? Funny how the person who puts forth the argument seems to conveniently forget that a large part of the reason they like the breed being discussed is precisely because it was bred for a purpose. Otherwise, there'd be no reason to choose such a dog over the friendly mix in the pound, would there?

 

J.

[WWBC]

Originally posted by fooshuman:

Are all stockdog owners better then pet/sport dog owners? No!

Are all Pet/Sport owners better then stockdog owners No!

Thing is BCs should never be bred for anything except herding sheep. (this method hasn't failed us yet)

 

Nothing is black and white besides our dogs!

*and even all of them aren't!* [/QB]

You captured the point: No one is saying that the only people who should own a Border Collie are people who work them. What IS being promoted IS that the only reason to BREED a Border Collie IS for their working ability. NOT for how fast they can make it around an agility course or down a fly ball lane. Seems pretty basic to me. JMO

 

WWBC

[Sue R]

Amen, Julie P. Well said, as usual.

[KrisK]

Not once since I've been on these boards have I been treated like a 'lesser' person because my dogs aren't 'stock dogs'. I have never felt inferior and never felt looked down upon.

I have, however, seen people like Julie P, and Bill Fosher and others continue to 'bang their heads against a wall' trying to explain why they so adamantly defend the essence of the border collie breed.

I don't understand why people have so much difficulty with the concept - BREED the dog for what it was born to do - ENJOY your dog as a pet, companion, SAR dog, service dog or whatever JUST DON'T breed the dog. Is that so hard to understand?

I think it would benefit a lot of us to go back to the 'sticky' - and remember that these boards are here BECAUSE of the desire to keep the Border Collie true to its breeding.

I wish I could explain myself better - I know what I'm trying to say...just not sure it's coming across correctly.

[Jack & Co.]

Kris, you did a great job explaining. I understood you perfectly. Well said.

[kelpiegirl]

Instead of folks "banging their heads against a wall", it serves well to remember that people have their own opinions, regardless of what they are told. Sometimes people have to take things in, and in their own time, digest it and assimilate it into their thought processes- or not.

Free thought is integral to a healthy society.

Julie

[Eileen Stein]

Nothing wrong with trying to help it along.

 

Sometimes people with no experience of something will value the opinions and conclusions of people who do have experience with it, and their views will alter accordingly. Sometimes not.

[kelpiegirl]

Agreed Eileen

But I would offer this advice to the would be teachers- don't get your knickers in a knot- people do usually come around, at some point....

Julie

[Anda]

Just wanted to make it clear: I totaly agree with the philosophy of this board and of the gerneral view that BC should not be bred for anything other than ability to work stock.

 

Just thought I needed to clarify I am on the same page as everyone else, in case my two posts gave anyone the wrong impression

 

Signing out (and heading to work, I'm late already )

[Dixie_Girl]

To say a relationship between dog and handler is the same regardless of activity is just not a fact. No more than saying a cop feels about his partner the same as he does the rest of the police force.

[Kyrasmom]

Originally posted by Dixie_Girl:

To say a relationship between dog and handler is the same regardless of activity is just not a fact. No more than saying a cop feels about his partner the same as he does the rest of the police force.

I'm not sure I understand the comparison, because of course cop is going to feel differently about a partner he works with and knows then he will about the rest of the police force...but that's because it's an interpersonal relationship based on trust..and I'm sure numerous other factors I'm not listing.

 

Not saying you're wrong...just not understanding why this example shows how the relationship differs based on activity.

 

I think, and I'm having the hardest time putting this into words, that it's not the activity that potentially defines a relationship. The success of those magic relationships, such as a shepherd trusting his dog and the dog working to its ultimate potential, are also based on the individual dynamics between said dog and said handler. Because if it was the activity that defined it, then the match up between handler and dog would truly not matter...when it would seem that dogs are often swapped out and do better by someone else.

 

I think eating the steak is the perfact match between dog and handler be it working sheep or tossing a ball. Of course the shepherd/sheep dog coupling is something to be admired given its background, and it's thanks to purpose bred dogs (and those who work them and protect their breeding with so much vigor )that we're allowed to enjoy Border Collies in so many activites, it's just not something that we can all have or even necessarily want....but I think we still get steak, or in my case soy based products.

 

Maria

[MrSnappy]

Originally posted by Ruger's Dad:

If that offends some sheep rancher that my dog is not herding sheep I just have one thing to say. GET A LIFE.

Wow. "Get some" reading comprehension. Myself, I am going to get a t-shirt that says "No sheep rancher ever said they were offended that your border collie is a pet" and just post a photo of me wearing it every time someone posts a variant of that stupid sentiment in one of these threads.

 

It amazes me that the eloquant folks of this board continue to come back when they are met with brick walls like this. I mean, do people like Ruger's Dad LOOK for reasons to find offense where there are none? Or do they just reach into their magic bag of imaginary insults and hurl them out there? Is it like an EBay sniping program where when key words come up, that retort gets auto-posted?

 

Gah.

 

RDM

[Dixie_Girl]

Cops with partners just have a much closer relationship. They develope an almost unspoken reppore with each other. They depend on each other and have a trust that sometimes goes deeper than any other.

 

oh, well, back to the steak!

[Kyrasmom]

Originally posted by Dixie_Girl:

Cops with partners just have a much closer relationship. They develope an almost unspoken reppore with each other. They depend on each other and have a trust that sometimes goes deeper than any other.

 

oh, well, back to the steak!

I agree...I just don't see the anology between activity and relationship as cops can also have partners that don't work and they change them.

 

That's all. And this is kind of going off topic from the original scope of the question..so sorry.

Maria

[Sue R]

They depend on each other...

Perhaps this is a great deal of the essence of the matter. Agilty partners depend on each other but, if things don't go just so, that's disappointing but no biggie in the big scheme of eternity. Same for obedience or frisbee or flyball partners, etc. I think it's the same for companion animals.

 

But when someone has stock work that HAS to be done, and you are dependent on your canine "partner" to get it done well and safely, it's not that different from the police-partners analogy. There are jobs on the farm that must be done, with a minimum of stress and a maximum of safety for handler and stock, and the only way those jobs can be done reasonably is with the willing help of a good dog.

 

When my hubby comes in and tells me he needs me and the dog NOW, there is NO substitute. But I do LOVE my dogs and pets that don't work every bit as much as those that do.

 

I am sure that a similar bond exists between service dogs, SAR dogs, drug detection dogs, and their handlers but we are talking about working Border Collies here. They are doing a job they have been bred to do for generations and which is part of their nature, not a learned ability unrelated to their original purpose or just suitable to their nature.

 

I don't mean to devalue the worth of any dog, highly trained or couch potato, to their owner/handler. I just am meaning to point out the value of a dog doing a job that it's bred for and that I am dependent on to make my cattle producer's life better.

 

I expect I'm going off-topic again...

[Eileen Stein]

Maybe a cop and his partner versus a bridge player and his partner?

 

But I'm not sure analogies are any use. If you've had the experience, you understand what they're saying. If you haven't had it, you can either take the word of those who have, or decide that they must be snobs and you know better. Either way, there's no reason for anyone to be doing anything different with their dogs than what they want to do (not counting breeding, of course).

[sandra s.]

If you spend almost all your bridgeless free time in the company of your bridge partner and wouldn't have it any other way, and if you have repeatedly pulled him/her out of trouble without even thinking of your own safety, and if you know, from experience, that he/she is willing to do the same for you at any time, then I'm very happy with the analogy .

 

I'm not thinking very rationally at the moment (yes, even less than usual ), and I was probably seeing ghosts where there aren't any. If I thought these boards were inhabited by snobs, I wouldn't have registered in the first place.

This is obviously not going anywhere, so I'll shut up now .

[Ruger's Dad]

Bill: After reading about Border Collies and doing some research I decided this brilliant and workaholic breed is what I wanted. I wanted the same type of dog that I played with while elk hunting a couple of years ago. I wouldn't have anything else at this point in my life. I have since met a lady in her late seventies that has a beautiful female Border Collie. She loves the dog and to the best of my knowledge is not herding sheep.

 

I have a USED four wheel drive because I thought I might get back to Arizona and hunt there again. I bought a Corvette because I love sports cars and could finally afford to buy a USED one. I have a lot of things that probably aren't used to their full extent.

 

I am sure you are free of status symbols. I never thought of Border Collies as a status symbol. I know a guy with a Gold Retriever that spent way over a year at a trainer. Maybe having a $3000 duck retriever is a status symbol.

 

Until there is a law passed that prevents us non-herding city slickers from owning Border Collies, we will continue to do so. Is my dog fulfilling his full potential, absolutely yes. He has brought great joy to me, my family, friends, and plenty of small kids. That is what dogs and life are all about.

[Black Watch Debatable]

Stock dog work is a kind of crucible. It burns off the inessentials: treats, praise, ?training,? comfort, ideal conditions. What?s left is the essence of working stock with a good dog: instinct, resolve, communion.

 

Yet another analogy: working with a stock dog is a bit like being part of a small group of climbers tackling a difficult route up a remote peak. The climbers may not be good friends --- some may not even like each other much --- but over the course of the expedition they?ll learn more about each other?s strengths and weaknesses than many of us will ever know about our coworkers or even family members. They'll share a bond others may never understand.

 

Working stock dog people know the border collie breed -- and their individual dogs -- far better than those who don?t depend on their dogs to help with sheep or cattle. This is the reason breeding decisions are best left, not to flyball contestants or agility dog people, but to those with considerable experience working good dogs on livestock.

 

It doesn?t mean that stock dog people love their dogs any more than you do and it doesn?t mean their dogs are happier than yours, or ?better trained,? or doing more important things than finding lost children, comforting the sick or being wonderful companions. (If I were the handler of a search and rescue dog that had worn its paws bloody and ruined its lungs in the ashes of the World Trade Center, the bridge player analogy would sting.) It has to do with involvement in a centuries-old working partnership grounded in the breed?s most essential traits, instincts and drives. The extent of your involvement in that working partnership is a good measure of how well you know the border collie.

 

Companion dogs rock. I have pit bulls, and they?re fantastic dogs and I?ve loved all of them at least as much as I love my collies. But the bond with a working stock dog is different, and very special. Shared goals and intrinsic rewards are a big part of it. Tough challenges and long days are a big part. I?m not saying you have to have been out there counting on your dog in the middle of the night with fences down and the rain blowing sideways to understand what I?m talking about --- but you have to have tended stock with a good dog to know.

 

 

Until there is a law passed that prevents us non-herding city slickers from owning Border Collies, we will continue to do so.

Ruger's Dad, as long as you care for your non-herding border collie and don't breed him, I don't give a rat's patoot what you do with him, and neither does any other stock dog owner :cool:

[borderlicious]

Ruger's dad, I respect your opinion but if bringing joy to people was what dogs were all about, there would be nothing but sweet tempered pets.

 

Fact is, Border Collies are about work. I'm not disputing that they make wonderful pets, but the idea that they don't *need* to be anything more than pets is concerning to me. This is the exact same attitude that the people who breed for show/sport/pets have, and that is what is harming this breed. They DO need to be about work because people DO rely on them to get a job done. Just because you don't work your dog doesn't mean that others don't need to.

 

Your dog may be fulfilling his full potential. Who knows. If you got him as a pet, enjoy him as a pet. You're doing right by your dog simply by loving him, I just hope you don't have plans to breed him.

 

I enjoy other activities with my dogs because I do feel it enhances our relationship. Hell, even agility really helped me connect with Dakota. I can't wait to experience stock work with Eve.

 

As a side note and random thought from an outsider, I think the respect between working sheepdogs and their handlers is one of the things that makes their relationship so fulfilling. It's hard to see a good dog work and not respect it, and I think the dog responds to that. Respect is something that, IMHO, is sorely lacking in pet/master relationships. I'm sure everyone here has a lot of respect for their dogs, but there seems to be another level of it with stock work. I dunno, it's hard for me to explain, it's just what I've observed. I'm not belittling anyone, before Ruger's Dad gets offended. I just notice something "more" there, and I'm eager to experience it for myself.

 

ETA: *applauds Luisa*