Cranberry Posted March 11, 2008 Report Share Posted March 11, 2008 When defining a great dog how much can come from the skills of the handler vs. talent (instincts) and skills (learned) of the dog? Are great dogs great because they are willing to be controlled 100% or because they can do it one their own AND are willing to be controlled? Mark Mark- I think it's a bit of all of the above, as forums user cgt said! H.T.H. (Hope This Helps!)!!~!!! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 11, 2008 Report Share Posted March 11, 2008 Wow, Charlie seems to have developed a fan club right here on the BC Boards! Charlie, are you paying money for that job? J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 11, 2008 Report Share Posted March 11, 2008 Maybe the definition "great" is a bit too vague. I am seeing a variety of "greats" here (which may be found in combination in a dog or not) - dogs that are/were great on the trial field; dogs that are/were great on the farm/ranch (especially in crisis situations like Diane has described; and dogs that have made great contributions to the gene pool. Another way I see it is dogs that have had a "great" effect on their handler on the trial field and/or at home, and/or dogs that have had a "great" effect on the breed through their progeny. Maybe it is only the handler that can define which dog has been "great" for him or her in a personal way, and the body of sheepdog/cattledog handlers that could define which dogs have been "great" in a more public way. Just some rather useless rambling, perhaps... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted March 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2008 Frankly Sue, I stopped paying much attention once people started nominating their own or their best friend's dogs. Hey, I love my own dogs too and not to be rude, but good grief! Guess it's inevitable, given the size of the country and the fact that we tend to see only a few dogs with any frequency. Anyway, I asked a similar question on a UK list and got a VERY short list of consistently successful world-class dogs, with some well reasoned comments on why those individual dogs were picked. Like a highly regarded competitor and friend told me before I began this thread, "the answer you'll get over here will be a lot different than over in the UK", and so it has proved. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Wall Posted March 12, 2008 Report Share Posted March 12, 2008 Kind of a slap in the face to those here who took the time to respond, don't you think, Andrea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLP Posted March 12, 2008 Report Share Posted March 12, 2008 Be nice to get the link to the UK list. If its as enjoyable as a read as this one was! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wendy V Posted March 12, 2008 Report Share Posted March 12, 2008 Frankly Sue, I stopped paying much attention once people started nominating their own or their best friend's dogs. Hey, I love my own dogs too and not to be rude, but good grief! I tend to agree with you but didn't you play this game as well by nominating Randy Mumford's Vic? No matter, I had opted out of this discussion early due to my proclaimed ignorance of being able to judge "greatness". I know what I like and what suits me, but I don't know much else. Perhaps you can share the UK characteristics and short list? I'd be much interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted March 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2008 Yeah, you're right guys. Sorry. That was a mean-spirited comment and I regret it. <note to self: think before you post, think before you post!> Here's the UK nominees: Thomas' Don Dalziel's Wisp Van der Sweep's Roy Davidson's Star Aled Owen's Roy Henderson's Sweep Think we could take them on? ;-) A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted March 12, 2008 Report Share Posted March 12, 2008 Andrea, I, too, tuned out when the thread got to naming everyone's "great" dog, as I thought the original question had actually more to do with qualities or characteristics that make a dog great, and not so much a "who's who" list of all-time faves. At any rate, I would be interested more in what kinds of responses you got from across the pond as far as characteristics and qualities that make a dog great. Care to share? A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted March 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2008 Well, I'll save the direct quotes for the article, but interestingly, the "partnership" between the dog and handler was given top billing, a factor that also came up repeatedly here, especially in connection with the dogs that were named. Maybe we could have a separate category for them, even if they did not, perhaps, fulfill all the requirements for greatness: something like "that special dog" or "once-in-a-lifetime dog"? Another interesting point: breeding prowess was NOT mentioned. Also listed: success in big trials on different types of sheep. (And when they say 'big' trials, I think they really mean that.) Heart. Good listener. Consistent. Enough power. (Interesting qualifier, huh?) How about this (from me): is this a dog that will still be talked about 20 or 30 years from now? Finally, I won't try to justify my rudeness, for which I have apologized, but it really is notable how dispassionate the assessment of the dogs being nominated were, both publicly on the list and in private emails, a trait I have also observed in our top handlers over here. They are able to make a remarkably clear-eyed assessment of the worth of their own dogs, their competitors' dogs--and yours, if you make it clear that you really do want to know! Nor do they regard it as an insult to the individual owner to make that type of assessment. Question: are we too parochial? Does that affect our judgement of what to breed and thus the quality of the dogs we are producing? And, on a side note, once the difficulties of competing at the Worlds are ironed out, will our (Canadian and US) showing at that event be meaningful? Is there anything to be concluded from how we've done there so far? A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted March 12, 2008 Report Share Posted March 12, 2008 Side bar: I recently watched a video of three generations of sheep herders. Link to article, click on link for video http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/03/11/2186481.htm Now, this was just about one upcoming competition, but I believe the video is worth watching- just for the last question that was posed, and the answer given. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranberry Posted March 12, 2008 Report Share Posted March 12, 2008 Wow, Charlie seems to have developed a fan club right here on the BC Boards! Charlie, are you paying money for that job? J. Can't argue with the good advice he gives!!!!!!!!!! :D :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.D Posted March 12, 2008 Report Share Posted March 12, 2008 Yeah, you're right guys. Sorry. That was a mean-spirited comment and I regret it. <note to self: think before you post, think before you post!>Here's the UK nominees: Thomas' Don Dalziel's Wisp Van der Sweep's Roy Davidson's Star Aled Owen's Roy Henderson's Sweep Think we could take them on? ;-) A Well if we're talking about Aled Owens 2007 supreme champion young Roy, I've seen him in competition twice and I'll second that. That dog is really special! Saw this dog do something at one trial that I think even surprised Aled. One of the obsticals was to guide the sheep into a chute and from there into a aluminium livestock trailer, no real problem usually apart that this day the sun was really glaring off the aluminium tailgate so much you had to squint your eyes to look at it. Well of coarse if sheep can't see where they're going they wont go, the only chance you had was if the sun went out. Well competitor after competitor failed time out and then it was Roys turn and boy was the sun shining. It got to be such a joke that the handlers were trying to push them instead of the dogs it got to the stage of anything goes and it was good entertainment to see some of these old boys late 70s & 80s hallooing and leaping around with the best of them. As I said it was Aled and Roy and Roy brought them into the chute and pushed them up to the front and then Aled walked in front of Roy and did everything inclueding I think a rather nifty samba to try and push them in, NO WAY. And then one got by him and leaped over the top of Roy and that was it we thought it was all over. BUT NO, Roy turned them all back into the chute again and Aled started a repeat performance together with waving his hat and thrashing his stick against the gates (nice stick but has never looked as good since) but in the end had no option but to admit defeat and turned round laughing to the crowd and shrugged his shoulders to say 'Well What Now'. At that Roy moves forward and Aled says well go on then. They beat back past Aled but they could not beat that dog he was where the sheep were going to be before the sheep were themselves. And he broke there sphirit and they decided to face the trailer and never once did he look to use his teeth. Needless to say he won. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Crocker Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 Be nice to get the link to the UK list. If its as enjoyable as a read as this one was! [/quote Can you tell us how to get to this list? Carolyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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