new mom observations

[Jedismom]

When I got on the computer today I was excited that there were so many responses to my post. Until I started reading midway through. Then I became shall I say, totally turned off. I am new to boards and BC's and during the short time I was lurking, I thought this was a good community in which to get information and share stories on the BC journey.

 

People should be free to post their opinion on boards without being "personally" attacked. It is not difficult to state your opinion without directing it personally to someone.

 

I am so disappointed. I will probably not post again. Who needs the stress of perhaps being bashed repeatedly?

 

As a teacher, I just have one more thing to say. Shame on you. My children act better. To those of you who actually answered my question. Thank you.

 

Georgia

[Laurae]

Jedismom,

Instead of being disappointed that your exact question wasn't answered by every single post, stick around and perhaps you might see that your question was in fact answered here in a larger sense, even when not in direct response to your post...

[mbc1963]

Jedismom...

 

Don't sweat this debate. It crops up repeatedly, every couple weeks, and always de-evolves into pretty much the same discussion. What I do is try to read around the hard-core folks who are arguing, and take what I can from the posts of the people who actually stick to the topic.

 

Mind you, I'm not taking sides, though I do understand and respect the philosophy of this forum. But every online community has its Great Divide, and this breeding discussion is the one for this community. You can really enjoy what you learn here without letting yourself get too emotive about the big division.

 

Mary

[stockdogranch]

Jedismom: yes, the thread got hijacked, and Laura apologized for that. I do, too. But, in many ways, within the heated debate, your original question really WAS answered...no, you do not have to work your dog on stock, or run with it for 6 miles a day, or own a small farm for it to run around on. Your dog can be very happy being just that--your dog. Each individual dog's energy level and exercise needs are individual, and your dog will let you know what it needs.

 

Heated debate, with people who feel passionately on both sides, does not make for immaturity. There really is a lot of good information to be gained from sticking around and reading on these boards. You've now learned that talking about breeding your dog will elicit strong responses, but other than that, you're safe,

A

[painted_ponies]

Should I never have a BC if I don't work the dog with cattle or sheep?

. . .

We loved [our first bc] so much, we wanted more because we have the time and room and money. <snip> We did great research, driving nearly 280 for one and 500 miles for the other.

 

BC should only be BRED for working ability. It's fine to HAVE non-working BC.

 

When you researched your foundation pair, what were your criteria?

[afrancis]

I've had Jedi for about a 6 weeks now and here's what I've learned so far...We walk for several miles daily. When we come back Cadi is ready to chill for a while. Jedi is not. He comes back more energized! What drains his energy is the focus he has when we are having our play and training sessions in the back yard. Then he gets tired. Mental not physical.

 

My question for the group is this. Is it absolutely a must for a BC to be involved in sheep herding or the agility sports or rescue...etc. etc.? these sports long term I guess can be hard on their bodies. Can they be happy as pets who get lots of exercise and play time with me?

 

Georgia

 

Georgia,

I'm sure you didn't imagine that your question would open up such a can of worms...Please don't abandon the Boards...as others have said, there is plenty of great information here that is yours for the taking...and it is sometimes couched in a lot of heat!

It just goes to show that border collies (a breed that was developed as a working dog but is also, in its own right and in the hands of a conscientious and attentive owner, an amazingly responsive, talented and loving pet), perhaps more than other breeds, generate a very passionate debate about their very future. Many other border collie owners/lovers know much more than I about their history, but I wonder whether many believe that if the "herding instinct" is blithely and/or unwittingly bred out of it, not only would it become useless as a working helper, but also fairly bland (i.e. non-problem-solving, non-cooperative, etc.) as a companion dog. Yes, in fact, now I see that Laurae says, "the things that make a border collie a border collie" will disappear. And that is, in effect, what we love about them.

BTW, I haven't done any organized activities with my bcs, but I am lucky that I can go out twice a day (about 1 hour each) for walks/runs through fields, woods, etc. with Skye, play ball and frisbee regularly and socialize her with other dogs and people on a daily basis. I am thinking of trying agility with her this summer and will keep you guys up-to-date on that!

A.

[Scout's Mom]

Hi Jedi's Mom: do try to stick around. I'm just a casual poster and reader, but have gleaned a lot about BCs!

 

My Scout is quite hyperactive, but doesn't care for sheep herding. She's gone a few times and was much more interested in chasing the BCs that were working the herd and picking up sticks for me to throw.

 

We play fetch several times a day and go for at least one long walk. Scout also likes "mind games": hide the toy, hide 'n seek, obedience for treats, etc. It helps that she has two sisters, though they are much older.

 

I think that she really enjoys a vigorous game of fetch and then a good scratch-down.

[jdarling]

What I do with my dogs is my business"

 

Yes, right up until you breed your unproven dogs. Then you are doing your part in changing the future of the breed ... the breed I am knee deep in. If I got to spend 1/2 as much time working my own dogs as I do rescuing the backyard bred pups who wouldn't know what to do with my sheep if I gave them a manual and a how-to DVD, I'd be doing good.

 

Most of your post can be answered by saying:

 

"No one cares what you do with your dogs ... do agility! Play frisbee! Chuck a ball! Knock yourself out. However, these dogs are working dogs by definition, and breeding for anything other than working ability is not doing this breed any justice."

 

Just for your information, My dogs are always out, they are never caged or chained. Where I live, I have 230 acres and 10 acres cleared for my home and my two lakes.

 

That's nice. I do not find it to be humanly possible for me to watch my dogs 24/7, and they welcome the downtime in a space that they consider their own. I have several acres, but the dogs are not allowed to roam on it unless I am with them.

 

I have one litter once a year and the new owners cannot sell, give away or breed any of the puppys.

 

Why is that? Do you not feel that the puppies you bred are breedworthy? Do you want to give the illusion that it makes you a better dog breeder by attempting to control what others do and do not do with their dogs? Didn't you just tell me earlier that your dogs are your dogs and it's none of my business what you do with them? Why aren't your puppy buyers afforded the same respect? Isn't what they do with their dogs their business?

 

I am a registered vet tech with 5 years experance.

 

I sure hope you're not reekwiired to fille outt pappperwurk.

 

Just because they don't go to fly-ball, dosent make them bad or me a bad breeder.

 

Nope. Breeding for no particular reason makes you a bad breeder.

 

Just because my dogs don't hurd Am I a bad owner??

 

Not at all. Read the "Read This First" statement.

 

Just think, If it wasn't for people like me, you bleeding hearts wouldn't have a dog.

 

Wrong. If it wasn't for people like you, this bleeding heart would not have to rescue dogs.

 

Another fact is that I have rescued dogs and I have a family member is doing it now. She had a nice house at one time, the dogs have distroyed it tearing up everything up including all of the furniture. She won't get out because she fills guilty, Is this the answer?

 

Nope. Become a better trainer. But by golly ... make sure "they are never caged."

 

Tell me this:

 

If you're not breeding to maintain the working ability in the breed, what are your breeding goals? What are you out to accomplish by breeding you dogs? What traits are you looking to pass down in the line? What contribution to the future of the breed as a whole are you hoping to make? Or do you just like the few bucks it puts in your pocket every year?

 

Oh, and in case you missed it, there is "hurding" in your area ... Midwest Herding Association, but my crystal ball tells me there is another excuse coming ...

 

J

[Geoffrey]

I didn't actually go in search of this information, but since Kenbo's profile has a website listed....I clicked the link.

 

I found it somewhat interesting that the original "foundation pair" are not the only dogs bred. A third is mentioned on the website as being given to them by someone who couldn't keep her anymore....and that new dog's 1st litter was born later that year.

[Kenbo]

I came to this board thinking we could help each other and LEARN from each other. I have found most people very helpful and fun to chat with, but some of you, are a know it all "pain the ass". I thought I could learn from you and we could share information, but it seems that some people just want to control and belittle and just be downright mean. I will do what I want, and now, even more, pump out those puppy's that can't herd. Ken

[Jedismom]

Thanks afrancis for explaining the importance behind the breeding for working ability. I can understand the passion a little better now.

 

Scout sounds very adorable scouts mom! I'm up for some new adventures, so as Jedi is getting more comfortable and confident I think he will be too. I've found

a dog club near us that does obedience and agility sports training. I think we'll start there. I've done an internet search and the closest place I've found to do

sheep herding training is 2 .5 hrs. away. It's worth a try to see if he likes it or has any aptitude for it. If he does, I'll have to try to find someplace closer.

 

I will continue to glean info from these boards for Jedi's sake. No need to cut off my nose to spite my face...uhh...I hope that was the correct saying

 

G

[Greylite]

Ken,

Honestly, you sound like a great dog owner; you just don't fit the main criterion stated on these boards for a responsible breeder (that the dogs are only considered for breeding if they work stock well enough to potentially pass their stockwork abilities on to a new generation). Ken, I had noticed in your previous posts that you mentioned that you bred your dogs. And when you stated here that you didn't work your dogs on stock, yet you were breeding them, I saw a red flag. I have no doubts that your dogs are very nice and very well cared for and lead happy lives. However, the ability to work stock to a high level is the first criterion to consider when evaluating a border collie for breedworthiness. If they don't work stock, the rest of the criteria (e.g., soundness, temperment) are irrelevant. And just because the decision to breed border collies responsibly begins with the dogs' stockwork doesn't mean that this is the only criterion to consider when evaluating potential breeding dogs—it's simply the first consideration. And, Greylite, it's entirely true that not all border collies are cut out to be stockdogs—it's just that those dogs who do not work stock (whether because they are not cut out to be stockdogs or they simply do not have the opportunity to prove that they can work stock to a high level) shouldn't be bred. Border collies are just different from other breeds that way. They are the great dogs they are because they have been consistently bred to work stock. When you stop breeding dogs who you know have the ability to work stock, you are changing the breed. Maybe it's not so apparent in the next generation, or even the third generation. But by the fourth and fifth and every one thereafter, the things that make a border collie a border collie are further and further eroding.

 

Thus, it's definitely not necessary not work stock with all border collies to give those dogs happy and fulfilling lives, but the only border collies that should only be bred are the ones who have proven stockworking ability.

 

PS: I do apologize to Jedismom for the thread hijack.

I was actually agreeing with you. Saying if you want a pet quality dog they are there. You can get one from people who breed with the intention of herding without all the dogs destine to become working dogs. Some dogs aren't cut out for it. Some dogs are better as pets.

[afrancis]

Thanks afrancis for explaining the importance behind the breeding for working ability. I can understand the passion a little better now.

 

Scout sounds very adorable scouts mom! I'm up for some new adventures, so as Jedi is getting more comfortable and confident I think he will be too. I've found

a dog club near us that does obedience and agility sports training. I think we'll start there. I've done an internet search and the closest place I've found to do

sheep herding training is 2 .5 hrs. away. It's worth a try to see if he likes it or has any aptitude for it. If he does, I'll have to try to find someplace closer.

 

I will continue to glean info from these boards for Jedi's sake. No need to cut off my nose to spite my face...uhh...I hope that was the correct saying

 

G

 

Bravo Georgia!

Do let us know how the obedience and agility goes with Jedi. Maybe we can compare notes. Skye is 5 1/2 now but she will jump over a bench or low fence at the drop of a hat -- I'm just not sure about the teeter and the weave-poles!

Ailsa

[Laurae]

I was actually agreeing with you. Saying if you want a pet quality dog they are there. You can get one from people who breed with the intention of herding without all the dogs destine to become working dogs. Some dogs aren't cut out for it. Some dogs are better as pets.

 

I should have realized that, Greylite—it's an excellent point!

[Greylite]

I should have realized that, Greylite—it's an excellent point!

I didn't make it clear so that's my fault. I thought I'd clear that up. Some times I type faster then I think. I have two dogs from the same litter. One is pet quality and one could very well make a nice little sheepdog. Just goes to show no matter how good of a breeder you are you are always going to have some pet quality dogs in the bunch.

[Tassie]

Thanks afrancis for explaining the importance behind the breeding for working ability. I can understand the passion a little better now.

 

Scout sounds very adorable scouts mom! I'm up for some new adventures, so as Jedi is getting more comfortable and confident I think he will be too. I've found

a dog club near us that does obedience and agility sports training. I think we'll start there. I've done an internet search and the closest place I've found to do

sheep herding training is 2 .5 hrs. away. It's worth a try to see if he likes it or has any aptitude for it. If he does, I'll have to try to find someplace closer.

 

I will continue to glean info from these boards for Jedi's sake. No need to cut off my nose to spite my face...uhh...I hope that was the correct saying

 

G

 

 

Hey Jedi'smom

 

I'm so glad for your sake and for Jedi's that you decided to stick around. Many, many of us don't work stock with our dogs, and no-one on the Boards thinks any less of us for that. And quite a few of us have show bred dogs (for a variety of reasons) - and we're still accepted (although I guess if we were mainly interested in conformation showing, this wouldn't be the best place to hang out.)

 

As you've seen - the one thing that you could do with Border Collies that will really get people riled up, is breed without having as your main consideration, maintaining, or if possible improving, the stock-working characteristics of the breed, by among other things breeding only from proven working dogs of high calibre. As people have pointed out, those characteristics are the things that make the breed different from other breeds, and which will be lost in fairly short time if they are bred without that as the first consideration. My little bitch is a case in point - show bred - big work ethic, and with a lot of patience on my trainer's part, she did learn to become a handy little farm dog, and I was absolutely proud of her - but had no problems seeing the huge difference between what she could achieve, and what my trainer's working-bred and working dogs from carefully selected stock, could do. BTW, my bitch and my dog were neutered at 7 and 9 months respectively.

 

Now, back to your original question - IMHO, a nice Border Collie will like most of all to hang out with you. Sure, they love to have the opportunity to hike, go bike riding, play frisbee etc, play agility, do obedience, do flyball etc, etc - but, certainly once you've established the bond with you, they will most of all want to be near you - even if that means sleeping a good portion of the day. Case in point - my friend has 5 acres, including a horse arena, which we use for agility, a dam, and a waterfrontage. One day we were painting the agility equipment - 4 Border Collies - my 2, hers, and her dog's sister - all had the opportunity to be anywhere on those 5 acres - chasing rabbits, swimming, running around ... you get the picture. So where were those 4 Border Collies while we were painting gear all day - yep - you guessed it - within about 5 yards of us - all day . So when we finished painting, we had to take them for a walk to get exercised . (Oh, and 3 of these dogs do obedience, agility and tracking as competitive sports, and the other does flyball.) This is one of the things that IMHO is so cool about these dogs as pets and sports companions - they love to be doing stuff with their people. And after all, that's one of the many working dog traits that is hard-wired into them.

 

So, your Jedi will love to be doing sports stuff with you (be careful, agility is very addictive ), and if you can, it would be OK to try him on stock - but that is even more addictive, and expensive in gas miles, but as you bond with him, his greatest joy will just be to be with you.

[stockdogranch]

I will do what I want, and now, even more, pump out those puppy's that can't herd.

 

Well, now, that's a fine and mature response.

 

You say you came to these boards to LEARN something; then, just perhaps, you might try to really LISTEN to those who might have a bit more experience with this breed. Those who are suggesting that your breeding practices are not the best are people who genuinely have the best interests of the breed in mind, rather than...hmmm...what did you say your goals for breeding were again? Oh, that's right--you never did say. Is it because you just love your dog so much, and it's got such a nice temperament? Is it monetary gain? Fame and fortune? None of those reasons cut it. Honestly, if you would quit being so defensive, and just try to understand what the sticky says, you might find that it's quite articulate and logical. I know it's hard--you came on here with your ideas already in place, considering yourself a "registered ABCA breeder," and it must be quite upsetting to be told on a public forum that your breeding practices are, well, I've been sitting here for 5 minutes trying to think of a word appropriate for a public forum, and can't. As Jodi asks, what are your breeding goals? What exactly are you trying to accomplish by breeding these dogs? Name calling over, attitudes aside, honest answer, please.

A

[Kenbo]

Well, now, that's a fine and mature response.

 

You say you came to these boards to LEARN something; then, just perhaps, you might try to really LISTEN to those who might have a bit more experience with this breed. Those who are suggesting that your breeding practices are not the best are people who genuinely have the best interests of the breed in mind, rather than...hmmm...what did you say your goals for breeding were again? Oh, that's right--you never did say. Is it because you just love your dog so much, and it's got such a nice temperament? Is it monetary gain? Fame and fortune? None of those reasons cut it. Honestly, if you would quit being so defensive, and just try to understand what the sticky says, you might find that it's quite articulate and logical. I know it's hard--you came on here with your ideas already in place, considering yourself a "registered ABCA breeder," and it must be quite upsetting to be told on a public forum that your breeding practices are, well, I've been sitting here for 5 minutes trying to think of a word appropriate for a public forum, and can't. As Jodi asks, what are your breeding goals? What exactly are you trying to accomplish by breeding these dogs? Name calling over, attitudes aside, honest answer, please.

A

 

Well a little tongne and cheek. I can hear my mother saying just that, God rest her soul. Maybe it's something we will never agree on together. It doesn't make either of us wrong. Like I have said, I agree on a lot of the topic. I am against the puppy mills because as you know somebody has to clean up the mess. What got this off to a bad start is the name calling and demands on other people's account. First, as you know this is your sticky, not mine. I don't have to agree, but in most, I do. There really are no goals. I have money, I retired from the government and am living my dream. I have a full fledged kennel with heat, if the dogs want to get in. Truth be known most of the dogs sleep in with my wife and I. Just because you have a working Border Collie doesn't give anyone the power to dictate the breed, it is not your breed. If you want working dogs, buy from working dog breeder or raise your own. Why is the board trying to tell me what to do? I don't care what you do. Do you see my point. But what has been said is not only childish, it is wrong. This isn't my first dog and it probably wont be my last. No one ownes the breed. I give my dogs good homes and I see that my puppies have good homes. Why would anyone care? My Breeding Goals, None, I just wanted puppies, is that so bad?

[Kenbo]

[quote name='stockdogranch' date='Feb 24 2008, 09:52 PM' post='221014'

 

I've been sitting here for 5 minutes trying to think of a word appropriate for a public forum, and can't.]

 

If you don't want this to be a public form, email me (ks8092@gmail.com) I would love to talk. Ken

[Greylite]

Well a little tongne and cheek. I can hear my mother saying just that, God rest her soul. Maybe it's something we will never agree on together. It doesn't make either of us wrong. Like I have said, I agree on a lot of the topic. I am against the puppy mills because as you know somebody has to clean up the mess. What got this off to a bad start is the name calling and demands on other people's account. First, as you know this is your sticky, not mine. I don't have to agree, but in most, I do. There really are no goals. I have money, I retired from the government and am living my dream. I have a full fledged kennel with heat, if the dogs want to get in. Truth be known most of the dogs sleep in with my wife and I. Just because you have a working Border Collie doesn't give anyone the power to dictate the breed, it is not your breed. If you want working dogs, buy from working dog breeder or raise your own. Why is the board trying to tell me what to do? I don't care what you do. Do you see my point. But what has been said is not only childish, it is wrong. This isn't my first dog and it probably wont be my last. No one ownes the breed. I give my dogs good homes and I see that my puppies have good homes. Why would anyone care? My Breeding Goals, None, I just wanted puppies, is that so bad?

Actually, yes it is bad. One needs breeding goals to produce puppies that stay true to the breed otherwise the breed we all know and love won't be that breed for much longer.

[jdarling]

My Breeding Goals, None, I just wanted puppies, is that so bad?

 

For a backyard breeder? Not at all.

 

I am stepping out of this conversation. For anyone who is trying to talk sense to Kenbo, please note that I received a very mature private post that contains comments such as "no wonder you are by yourself there in Idaho," and talked about my "big mouth" ... my "big ass" ... and my "shit hole farm." He mentioned that my questions were "arrogant" and that they don't deserve answers ... so make sure you don't ask him any. And then mentioned something unintelligible about how saying "nope" is easier to say with a cigarette in my mouth.

 

I have better things to do with my time ... like work my dogs.

 

Jodi

[powerfulgazelle]

Why would anyone care? My Breeding Goals, None, I just wanted puppies, is that so bad?

 

Well... 1. I care because, when I have had the opportunity to see these dogs work, I have experienced it as something we sometimes-stupid humans finally got pretty close to right. It is really beautiful....and I don't just mean the dogs themselves, but the work. No, I don't have more than an acre of land, I live in the city, and I am pretty sure no sheep have to fear ending up at my house ever. It's not in the cards. But, for folks who use these beautiful creatures as they were intended, as helpmates in their livelihood, it is important that the technology, so to speak, continues to work. So, I imagine they care for some of the same reasons I care and for some different ones too.

 

2. As to the "goals, none, I just wanted puppies"? Yipes. I don't know you from Adam, but that sounds like something my preschooler would say. I hope you would not, say, sell a pup to a home that wanted a BC puppy for the same reason you listed for breeding them...because, well, they "just wanted puppies, is that so bad?". Just wanting something hardly guarantees one is doing something for the right reasons or with the right outcome.

[Shetlander]

I'm so glad for your sake and for Jedi's that you decided to stick around. Many, many of us don't work stock with our dogs, and no-one on the Boards thinks any less of us for that

 

Yes, I'm also happy you will be staying around. The Boards' stance on breeding is made very clear and it is a subject many feel passionate about. As far as owning Border Collies, members come from all walks of life. From those who live on farms to those who live in busy cities and everything in between. What unites us is our love and respect for these amazing dogs.

 

IMHO, a nice Border Collie will like most of all to hang out with you. Sure, they love to have the opportunity to hike, go bike riding, play frisbee etc, play agility, do obedience, do flyball etc, etc - but, certainly once you've established the bond with you, they will most of all want to be near you - even if that means sleeping a good portion of the day.

 

Most Border Collies do seem to love doing things, but most of all they want to be doing those things with their persons. Their enthusiasm for life is catching and you might find yourself being more active with them than you had planned, but that is the fun of owning a Border Collie, not a daily requirement. Today, I took Quinn to my club to do disc dog training with a couple of friends and their Border Collies. As I turned onto the highway that takes us there, Quinn sat up in his seat, looked around, then --I swear-- turned to me and smiled. He knew we were off to have fun together. That is the kind of moment that makes me love being with Quinn and happy to be a Border Collie owner.

[Eileen Stein]

Well, I think this thread has gotten sufficiently out of hand that I'm going to close it now. Before I do, I want to give one more response to the OP's question:

 

My question for the group is this. Is it absolutely a must for a BC to be involved in sheep herding or the agility sports or rescue...etc. etc.? these sports long term I guess can be hard on their bodies. Can they be happy as pets who get lots of exercise and play time with me?

 

My answer would be that border collies can absolutely be happy as pets who get lots of exercise and play time with you. My border collies who don't work sheep are pets only -- they don't do any competitive dog sports -- and they are very happy, and I am happy with them.